SPEAKING IN TONGUES: Help make this the DEFINITIVE learning thread

[zeke37]

bump for oscar

 

[Servant of Jesus]

The intrepid warriors are still slugging it out after the less resilient ones are giving up on this thread. But continue to bring it on! I'm having fun!

Thank goodness we still have the wise and humble words of zeke37 to bring us to an understanding of what the Bible is really telling us with regard to this issue.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Here is another example of a charismatic church which claims to have gifts of the Holy Spirit- including the gift of healing and speaking in tongues.

YouTube - Benny Hinn: Let the Bodies Hit the Floor

So I do not see how this brings glory to God and convinces people to trust in Jesus- but hundreds of thousands of people would disagree with me.

 

[zeke37]

a mass hypnotist

 

[zeke37]

Thank goodness we still have the wise and humble words of zeke37 to bring us to an understanding of what the Bible is really telling us with regard to this issue.

thanks...your words are pretty wise and humble too Brother

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

bump for oscar

Someone rattle my cage?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Here is another example of a charismatic church which claims to have gifts of the Holy Spirit- including the gift of healing and speaking in tongues.

So I do not see how this brings glory to God and convinces people to trust in Jesus- but hundreds of thousands of people would disagree with me.

I agree that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is not a spectator sport. Jesus certainly did not minister this way in great big meetings with special effects. And it certainly does not reflect the type of ministry practiced by the Pentecostal pioneers early in the 20th Century.

It is interesting that when Smith Wigglesworth was in Wellington New Zealand in the 1920s and people got healed, 2000 people got saved during the ministry meetings and they had a great breaking of bread service, that the local Plymouth Brethren group served the bread and the wine. They also acknowledged that the ministry Smith Wigglesworth had was genuine. The Plymouth Brethren were very strong in the Word and were very particular about what was genuine and what was false. For them to acknowledge that a Pentecostal pioneer's ministry of healing was genuine is a very positive comment on it

But then, that was 80 years ago. There are always changes from one generation to another. Look how the great Welsh revival started to die out as the second generation took over from the pioneers there. Going back still further, 80 years after the Day of Pentecost, the early church was starting to show cracks of shonky doctrine and practice. The Pentecostal/Charismatic church is no different. I came into the Pentecostal church in 1966, and I have seen a definite decline in spirituality from then until now to the point where I would not be keen to join most Pentecostal/Charismatic churches in my city. I left the Charismatic church in 1977 where I was a deacon, because of the unchristian gossiping, backbiting, character assassination, legalism, etc that was going on in that church. The Presbyterian church may have its problems, but it still has a consistent doctrinal basis to it, so I am happy to remain an elder there as long as the Holy Spirit wants me to.

 

[Paul.]

6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

You have provided this scripture as one of the reasons that believe the disciples in Acts 2 understood themselves when they spoke in tongues. You highlighted the part stating

every man heard them speak in his own language.

In post #294 I analyzed this verse and concluded that the phrase "every man" only refers to the crowd and not the disciples. If my analysis is correct, this scripture does not state or intimate that the disciples understood themselves while they spoke in tongues. If my analysis contained any interpretive errors I would be interested in having you point them out. Are you able to point out any interpretative errors in my analysis of Acts 2:6 as provided in post #294?

 

[zeke37]

You have provided this scripture as one of the reasons that believe the disciples in Acts 2 understood themselves when they spoke in tongues. You highlighted the part stating



In post #294 I analyzed this verse and concluded that the phrase "every man" only refers to the crowd and not the disciples. If my analysis is correct, this scripture does not state or intimate that the disciples understood themselves while they spoke in tongues. If my analysis contained any interpretive errors I would be interested in having you point them out. Are you able to point out any interpretative errors in my analysis of Acts 2:6 as provided in post #294?

Hi Brother

you are free to believe what you want to....as I am

I gave my opinion, my understanding of Acts2....as you did

I already posted a reply to that post, in post #295

I know that the purpose of tongues in Acts was for complete understanding...to further the Gospel of Christ into other tongues(languages)

taking away all langauge barriers...
so anyone/everyone could hear the words in their own native dialect

nothing suggests that they did not understand...infact, Peter obviously did, because he lifts his voice upover the crowd and speaks to some...
and he knew what was said in tongues...as he explains to them....

otherwise he would not have known what to say to them....

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

notice that they are speaking in tongue without the mention of anyone else hearing them yet....they were still by themselves...no crowd yet

they were speaking amongst themselves...
and we already know that the hearer of the miracle tongue,
hears it in their own home dialect...

did they not hear the tongues they spoke?...of course they did...
did they understand each other...
well according to scripture, everyone that hears that cloven tongue from God, understood in their own language

now ask yourself,
why would they speak in tongues to each other
before a crowd had gathered
if they could not even understand the words spoken to themselves?


6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

so what does this mean?
well, Peter will tell them exactly what it means...
Peter understood what it meant perfectly

he will now teach them what it means,
meaning that he himself has to know what it means

14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

it is about prophesy...
they have to at least understand their own words
to understand it as even being prophesy

Peter knew he was prophesying to them...
and he knew exactly what he was saying,
as he relates it to Joel 2


19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

there is a point to the Acts tongues...
it is not unknown at all...but rather very known...
perfectly known
absolute understanding...

whether in agreement or not....
but perfect dialectual understanding


since no crowd was gathered when they begun..
it would be redundant to have them uttering unintelligible non-speech
to each other....
what would be the beinifit?

iow, they themselves were the crowd to begin with

and, as stated, Peter knew what he said in tongues,
and even lifts his voice up so others can receive his answer
as he explains what is going on to the masses


everything is based on perfect understanding...not lack of it!

 

[Servant of Jesus]

A God who created the infinitely complex but perfectly ordered Universe would not do something that is illogical, and that would create confusion.

.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

YouTube - Speaking in Tongues and Interpretation

Would not anyone hearing this message be distracted and turned away from our faith by the words "spoken in tongues", instead of being inspired by words they can understand?

If someone wanted to inspire confidence in Christianity, instead of bringing it into question or even ridicule, should they not speak in a clear language that can be understood be those present?

Why do we need to resort to speech that is unintelligible, instead of continuing to be inspired by the eloquent and profoundly inspirational and moving messages delivered in a plain and understandable language by the great ministers of our faith, including Christ himself?

 

[sunlover1]

Would not anyone hearing this message be distracted and turned away from our faith by the words "spoken in tongues", instead of being inspired by words they can understand?

Actually,tPaul suggested that they'd think you're crazy
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues,
and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in,
will they not say that you are out of your mind?

If someone wanted to inspire confidence in Christianity, instead of bringing it into question or even ridicule, should they not speak in a clear language that can be understood be those present?

Who's suggesting otherwise? We, in our church, present a clear message
... in ENGLISH
Who is preaching in tongues? :O
(I think I agree with Paul )

Why do we need to resort to speech that is unintelligible, instead of continuing to be inspired by the eloquent and profoundly inspirational and moving messages delivered in a plain and understandable language by the great ministers of our faith, including Christ himself?

Tongues isn't for communicating to men (or is there another type of manifestation of tongues? Hmmmmmm)
For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a]
does not speak to men but to God.

Why did God ordain this type of tongues?
*shrugs

 

[Sherha]

It was prophesied in the book of Joel. I am Pentecostal.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

It was prophesied in the book of Joel. I am Pentecostal.

Could you be more specific please- which verse in Joel?

Why is it only one denomination of Christians- Pentecostals- who so strongly support "speaking in tongues"?

And I ask again, why is there not a single reference to Jesus ever speaking in tongues, or urging His followers to do so?

 

[sunlover1]

Why is it only one denomination of Christians- Pentecostals- who so strongly support "speaking in tongues"?

Better question is what does the Bible say about tongues.
But you're mistaken about it being only Pentecostals.
I know a RC and a non Pent prot .. who have spoken
in tongues on one occasion both (IIRC it was the baptism
of the Spirit)
They both post here, and in fact, may have already
share that

And I ask again, why is there not a single reference to Jesus ever speaking in tongues, or urging His followers to do so?

What would they have recorded?
Many times it's written that Jesus prayed.
Should we then disregard the words of Paul (words of God) that do urge His followers to
desire spiritual gifts?

 

[mark46]

Joel 2:28-32 (New King James Version)


God’s Spirit Poured Out

28 “ And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
30 “ And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
32 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD has said,
Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.

 

[mark46]

God does not restrict the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit (including tongues) to pentocostal protestant churches. There have certainly been charismatic prayer groups among the RCC, Anglicans, Presbyterians, and Lutherans. If one looks to the Protestant awakenings in the US, you will find many examples of the manifestation of gifts. Certainly the laying on of hands and healing prayer is common among almost all Christians.

I have not been part of this thread, so I apologize if this is repetitous. There are at least three kinds of "speaking in tongues".

SPEAKING IN TONGUES
This is speaking out loud before the congregation. Per scripture, this is a special kind of word of knowledge and need interpretation. A particular form of this is speaking in an actual foreign language that the speaker does not know.

SINGING IN TONGUES
This is the most common form I have seen. This is members of the congregation praying out loud in a prayer language while others are also praying out loud. This often manifests as singing although we do not know the words. We certainly hear and feel the Holy Spirit in a special way during this prayer. I find this to be wonderful form of prayer. We have allowed our lips to be used by the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKING IN A PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE
This is similar to "singing" except this is done in private or in a very small group. We pray without using language. For example, when I pray over someone, I might speak in tongues (depending on the circumstances and person). Also, I might speak in tongues (fairly quietly) during mass, especially during consecration at the sound of the bells, when Jesus is raised and we bow.

 

[patience7]

I am coming in late and have tried to read most post but there are a lot! I hope that I am not repeating.

I read in one post something about what profit is it to speak in an tongue, praying in an tongue and I would like to respond

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

13:2 For he that speaketh in an tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God. . . but yet Paul said,

v18,19) "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding". . .Paul apparently spoke in tongues quite a bit - When did he speak in tongues? I believe he spoke in tongues in his private prayer life:

v14,15) For if I pray in an tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: . . .

12:4 He that speaketh in an tongue edifieth himself; . . .

Jude 20 But ye beloved building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit.

I believe that praying in an tongue edifies and builds us up spiritually.

I agree that speaking in tongues has gotten a bad rap because of the way it has been handled in some churches. Paul did set "rules" of how this should be handled in a group setting in the following:

1 Corinthians 14:27-28 If any man speak in an tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course (in order); and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

v26). . . Let all things be done unto edifying.
v40) Let all things be done decently and in order.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Thank you for your contribution- better late than never! Congratulations on reading the whole thread; there is lot to think about.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

It was prophesied in the book of Joel. I am Pentecostal.

Could you be more specific please- which verse in Joel?

Why is it only one denomination of Christians- Pentecostals- who so strongly support "speaking in tongues"?

And I ask again, why is there not a single reference to Jesus ever speaking in tongues, or urging His followers to do so?

Joel 2:28-32 (New King James Version)


God’s Spirit Poured Out

28 “ And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
30 “ And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
32 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD has said,
Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.

But this verse in Joel says nothing about speaking in tongues. I realize that speaking in tongues through the Holy Spirit did not start until Pentecost- but surely Jesus would have used this form of prayer, or made reference to it, during his ministry if it was something that was pleasing to God.