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it builds up the one speaking
Thanks for your post. I heartily agree.What a twisting of the truth you do weave. The church IS INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS. And the "Greater gifts" must be understood in the context of the scripture, and not the context of an "ungifted" experience.
The verse you quoted, but never posted, in context;
1CO 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts/charisma of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts/charisma.
The "greater gifts" were the Charisma gifts. The gift of apostles, prophets, teachers are not "charisma" gifts they are "doma" gifts.
EPH 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts/doma unto men.........11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
And you can desire to be an apostle, prophet etc. all you want, to no avail. Those are talent gifts one is born with even as Jeremiah was appointed as a prophet in the womb. They come as callings of God and not cryings of the "ungifted".
So it is up to YOU to become a CHARISMA gifted believer, not God. It will take faith and not fear to receive. And it will also take an "earnest desire". Not a "Well if this gift is real, God then I'll accept it." Too many Christians have sought the higher gifts with such a religious platitude of a request. That is why they are "UNGIFTED" still. When scripture says "Do all have charisma gifts", of course scripture knows the answer is NO. Not because of God, but because of false teaching and lack of faith.
And my fully ‘backed by scripture’ response is countered with ‘your opinion’. I don’t expect those here ‘who are actually seeking the truth’ will be surprised that I don’t fold from my stated POV.The gifts the verse is referring to are the gifts listed in the immediately preceding verses - apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, healing, helps, administration, and tongues. It lists them in order of importance "first apostles, second prophets, third teachers...", with tongues right at the end of the list. Paul then tells the Corinthians to "eagerly desire the greater gifts."
And my fully ‘backed by scripture’ response is countered with ‘your opinion’.
I don’t expect those here ‘who are actually seeking the truth’ will be surprised that I don’t fold from my stated POV.
So you hold onto your view despite what scripture says clearly?And my fully ‘backed by scripture’ response is countered with ‘your opinion’. I don’t expect those here ‘who are actually seeking the truth’ will be surprised that I don’t fold from my stated POV.
Uhh, we kind of think that 'obtaining' and 'walking' in the promises of God does glorify Him. Does your church teach differently?There in lies the problem with it. "it builds up the one speaking" not Jesus Christ
Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come:
Uhh, we kind of think that 'obtaining' and 'walking' in the promises of God does glorify Him. Does your church teach differently?
Uhh, we kind of think that 'obtaining' and 'walking' in the promises of God does glorify Him. Does your church teach differently?
Long ago I began questioning those soulish questioned psychological tests which were supposed to tell you your "spiritual" gift.Thanks for your post. I heartily agree.
This might be a good point to insert some discussion about the general misunderstanding about the "possession" of "gifts" and the "not my gift" attitude.
Churches tend to have these dreadful classes about "finding" your gift. Which begins with a personal natural abilities questionnaire to identify your natural "God-given" abilities. (groan)
While this may reveal some useful insights in the process, it negates the idea that spiritual gifts are NOT natural abilities, but rather supernatural abilities.
The other problem is with a closed-case approach to gifts. A person takes the class, they "identify" their gift, then they try to find a ministry slot that could use their natural "God-given" abilities. They posses this ability as if it were a spiritual gift, and fail to seek any further. When offered a ministry in another area, they will likely say, "That's not my gift.", rather than listen to what the Spirit may be saying.
I want to hear from others on this, but I have experienced temporary giftings that I have not used since. I was open to God using me however he chose to, and to receive gifts for temporary situations. This was confusing to me at first. I thought God was opening up an area of ministry for me to continue in. An open door for me to walk through into a deeper ministry life. But nothing more happened in that area. Not to say that it couldn't, but it did not continue at that time.
The lesson for me, was to always be open to whatever the Spirit wants to do at the moment. And to not be possessive about the gifts to the point of either exclusion. or continued use.
Curious to hear what you and others have learned and experienced in this area.
Uhh, we kind of think
Untrue. The Church is the body of Christ. Individuals may make up the Church but alone they are no such thing. No.man as an individual is the Church.What a twisting of the truth you do weave. The church IS INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS. And the "Greater gifts" must be understood in the context of the scripture, and not the context of an "ungifted" experience.
The verse you quoted, but never posted, in context;
1CO 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts/charisma of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts/charisma.
The "greater gifts" were the Charisma gifts. The gift of apostles, prophets, teachers are not "charisma" gifts they are "doma" gifts.
EPH 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts/doma unto men.........11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
And you can desire to be an apostle, prophet etc. all you want, to no avail. Those are talent gifts one is born with even as Jeremiah was appointed as a prophet in the womb. They come as callings of God and not cryings of the "ungifted".
So it is up to YOU to become a CHARISMA gifted believer, not God. It will take faith and not fear to receive. And it will also take an "earnest desire". Not a "Well if this gift is real, God then I'll accept it." Too many Christians have sought the higher gifts with such a religious platitude of a request. That is why they are "UNGIFTED" still. When scripture says "Do all have charisma gifts", of course scripture knows the answer is NO. Not because of God, but because of false teaching and lack of faith.
The Church is not individual believers it is believers being of ONE belief. The very word individuals is contrary to what the Church is. You are not the Church and neither am I but those who believe as one are.What a twisting of the truth you do weave. The church IS INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS. And the "Greater gifts" must be understood in the context of the scripture, and not the context of an "ungifted" experience.
The verse you quoted, but never posted, in context;
1CO 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts/charisma of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts/charisma.
The "greater gifts" were the Charisma gifts. The gift of apostles, prophets, teachers are not "charisma" gifts they are "doma" gifts.
EPH 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts/doma unto men.........11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
And you can desire to be an apostle, prophet etc. all you want, to no avail. Those are talent gifts one is born with even as Jeremiah was appointed as a prophet in the womb. They come as callings of God and not cryings of the "ungifted".
So it is up to YOU to become a CHARISMA gifted believer, not God. It will take faith and not fear to receive. And it will also take an "earnest desire". Not a "Well if this gift is real, God then I'll accept it." Too many Christians have sought the higher gifts with such a religious platitude of a request. That is why they are "UNGIFTED" still. When scripture says "Do all have charisma gifts", of course scripture knows the answer is NO. Not because of God, but because of false teaching and lack of faith.
Don't give up your day job.The scripture you quoted actually supports my view, not yours, as I demonstrated.
The part I bolded above....fits every one of us here who did exactly that, we gave up our "ungifted" belief system and become 'gifted'. So while your 'logic' above is great, your 'spiritual' application falls short. But that is no surprise to 'some' of us here.Thats ok. I too don't expect you to fold from your stated views. It is difficult for those who have their preconceived suppositions ingrained into them to actually change their minds, even when confronted with the weight of biblical evidence to the contrary.
The part I bolded above....fits every one of us here who did exactly that, to give up our "ungifted" belief system and become 'gifted'.
My "kinda think" was a 'tongue in cheek' direct answer to you AND 'whatever point' you actually think your post had to begin with. Your post, on the other hand, absolutely did not respond to my direct question at all. Hmmm. I'll just have to ASSUME your church does teach differently and you bought that rather than the "gifted" perspective on the things some of us speak of in this thread.Nice deflection from the post you quoted. Please address the comment that my statements refereed to.
Have you so soon forgotten? No, I mean the question you never, never, never, answer every time I ask it. There were three groups spoken of in the letter to Corinth; The "whole charismatic church" of Corinth, those who are "ungifted" and those who are "unbelievers". And your response as to WHICH ONE of those THREE groups defines YOU is?Becoming gifted? You mean being duped by your teachers, seeing as the charismatic gifts you claim to have do match the biblical descriptions of those gifts.
ASSUME
Exactly. And this thread is about refuting what we believe and have supported with scripture, and not just you or your church's opinions. So welcome. Now if you have a sword, sharpen it and join in.WE believe in the gifts but not how you interpret some of them
What a silly distinction.As I already said, Paul told the Corinthian church to desire certain spiritual gifts, not the individual beleiver.
Where are you getting this "simply because we fancy having it" bologna?it is folly to pray for a particular gift simply because we fancy having it.
Which ear posting on this thread has said they wish to be an eye?It is wrong for an ear to want to be an eye:
I've pretty much gone through the entire thread now and I'll be darned if I see anyone who says they don't desire the greater gifts as well as or more than tongues.The gifts the verse is referring to are the gifts listed in the immediately preceding verses - apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, healing, helps, administration, and tongues. It lists them in order of importance "first apostles, second prophets, third teachers...", with tongues right at the end of the list. Paul then tells the Corinthians to "eagerly desire the greater gifts."
There in lies the problem with it. "it builds up the one speaking" not Jesus Christ
What a silly argumentative question."kind of" either you believe it or you don't or are you lukewarm on it.
He did - very directly and concisely.Nice deflection from the post you quoted. Please address the comment that my statements refereed to.
Have you so soon forgotten? No, I mean the question you never, never, never, answer every time I ask it. There were three groups spoken of in the letter to Corinth; The "whole charismatic church" of Corinth, those who are "ungifted" and those who are "unbelievers". And your response as to WHICH ONE of those THREE groups defines YOU is?
1CO 14:23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
Yup, Cessationist doctrine. I figured as much.…
The church in Corinth had spiritual gifts which are no longer active today. Those who have been told they have them today I'm afraid have been duped by their teachers. The gifts claimed today do not match the biblical descriptions. …
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