Speaking in Tongues and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit

[shioks]

Here is the relevant portion of that transcript. It comes from the Naked Bible podcast 120. It doesn't C/P well so the spacing is off.

snip.

I have listened to the podcast. This is the reason I asked all these questions.

How do you know it is the Holy Spirit and not the spirit of devil deceived to be the Holy Spirit. OR, it is your own soul not the spirit, if your understanding of the nature of man is Trichotomy.

This is also why there is a need to discern the spirit or the soul from the spirit. Some will take any spirit as Holy Spirit without question, which is not biblical as we are to test the spirit. Some will take soulish power as genuine spiritual gifts, which is not. And get into demonic activities.

Outward manifestations are always misleading; How does one differentiate the source is of the Spirit or the soul OR the Holy Spirit or devil?

That's the concern I have and have been trying to find answers.

 

[Biblicist]

It would be good have scripturally support of spirit filled experience after years of accepting Christ. Otherwise, it may seem that Christians are not spirit filled even after receiving Christ as their personal savior.

If I can jump into this question, for those who are classic-Pentecostals (i.e., AoG), they will say that you were only sealed with the Spirit at the point of your Salvation, where you need to later on receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit for power with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

For most charismatics and non-classic Pentecostals such as myself, we realise that every Christian is Baptised in the Holy Spirit the moment that they are Born Again, but sadly, many have not been taught that they can immediately seek to pray in the Spirit (tongues) and even prophesy without waiting.

 

[shioks]

If I can jump into this question, for those who are classic-Pentecostals (i.e., AoG), they will say that you were only sealed with the Spirit at the point of your Salvation, where you need to later on receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit for power with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

For most charismatics and non-classic Pentecostals such as myself, we realise that every Christian is Baptised in the Holy Spirit the moment that they are Born Again, but sadly, many have not been taught that they can immediately seek to pray in the Spirit (tongues) and even prophesy without waiting.

If you look at John Piper, he has been praying to speak in tongue but have not received such gift. Either classic or non-classic pentecostals like John Piper does not fit into these scenarios. How do we explain this then?

 

[ARBITER01]

If I can jump into this question, for those who are classic-Pentecostals (i.e., AoG), they will say that you were only sealed with the Spirit at the point of your Salvation, where you need to later on receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit for power with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

Very good explanation!

Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,––in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The actual filling of The Holy Spirit came after water baptism, just like the example Jesus gave us to follow,.. "to fulfill all righteousness."

 

[Sanoy]

That is what I finally realized way back in '92. All these people writing books on the subject of tongues but no one was really explaining anything, they just talked around in circles. I was just honest with GOD one day and said "I don't know what this is, but if it is something that I'm suppose to have, help me to receive it." GOD took over from there and I received my filling of The Holy Spirit soon afterwards.

I'd like to hear your testimony on that if you are willing. I have no intention of scrutinizing it; I just want to learn more about the moment one is filled with the Holy Spirit. I made a thread about this specific thing but no one responded with their testimony.

 

[Sanoy]

I have listened to the podcast. This is the reason I asked all these questions.

How do you know it is the Holy Spirit and not the spirit of devil deceived to be the Holy Spirit. OR, it is your own soul not the spirit, if your understanding of the nature of man is Trichotomy.

This is also why there is a need to discern the spirit or the soul from the spirit. Some will take any spirit as Holy Spirit without question, which is not biblical as we are to test the spirit. Some will take soulish power as genuine spiritual gifts, which is not. And get into demonic activities.

Outward manifestations are always misleading; How does one differentiate the source is of the Spirit or the soul OR the Holy Spirit or devil?

That's the concern I have and have been trying to find answers.

That is where I struggle as well. I believe like you do that there are three possibilities, Demonic, Human spirit/body(for some manifestations), and Holy Spirit. I also believe there is a fourth that is the most dangerous type and that is fallen angels. These are the worst because they seem to be only a single shade from the truth whereas the demonic can be a bit more on the nose. A modern example of that type is Lorna Byrne *. A scriptural example would be the demon of Acts 16 that followed Paul around saying "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved."

I think that podcast is more of the fourth type. I call it demonic in the general sense.

(* Lorna Byrne claims to see angels and her books and stories lead people to a stronger faith. She has received truthful prophecies but her testimony is that Michael visited her and said. "I have a message for you. You have to write a book about angels and God and love. It will go all over the world and be a bestseller” She claims to have a team of angel guides that include Michael and I think Martin Luther King)

 

[Biblicist]

(* Lorna Byrne claims to see angels and her books and stories lead people to a stronger faith. She has received truthful prophecies but her testimony is that Michael visited her and said. "I have a message for you. You have to write a book about angels and God and love. It will go all over the world and be a bestseller” She claims to have a team of angel guides that include Michael and I think Martin Luther King)

As a Pentecostal of some years, I can assure you that when it comes to what are usually nothing more than odd-ball stories about trips to heaven and conversations with Angels, that these things can usually always be placed in the looney bin where they belong.

 

[shioks]

That is where I struggle as well. I believe like you do that there are three possibilities, Demonic, Human spirit/body(for some manifestations), and Holy Spirit. I also believe there is a fourth that is the most dangerous type and that is fallen angels. These are the worst because they seem to be only a single shade from the truth whereas the demonic can be a bit more on the nose. A modern example of that type is Lorna Byrne *. A scriptural example would be the demon of Acts 16 that followed Paul around saying "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved."

I think that podcast is more of the fourth type. I call it demonic in the general sense.

(* Lorna Byrne claims to see angels and her books and stories lead people to a stronger faith. She has received truthful prophecies but her testimony is that Michael visited her and said. "I have a message for you. You have to write a book about angels and God and love. It will go all over the world and be a bestseller” She claims to have a team of angel guides that include Michael and I think Martin Luther King)

Isn't demonic = fallen angels?

 

[Sanoy]

Isn't demonic = fallen angels?

In general modern vernacular yeah, but in Hebrew vernacular demons would be the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim and I think a certain portion of the human dead. In non Judeo ancient Mesopotamian literature and Roman era literature demon can just mean spirit so it could refer to anything including angels. In that usage any human dead, or "god" is a demon, it also doesn't refer to good or bad but type.

It's a complicated word no doubt. It's kinda like hell, we use it in the modern vernacular in ways that aren't really specific to what we really mean.

 

[Sanoy]

As a Pentecostal of some years, I can assure you that when it comes to what are usually nothing more than odd-ball stories about trips to heaven and conversations with Angels, that these things can usually always be placed in the looney bin where they belong.

Being a Pentecostal for a long time is not a credential, these matters need to be looked into carefully.

In the case of Lorna she was told that while dating her to-be husband that he would die after a certain amount of years. When those years were up he died on "schedule". There is a bit more too it than simply being crazy. Many of those that are crazy exhibit the supernatural. I remember my Psych professor telling me a long time ago about a patient that ripped a door off the hinges and through it down the hallway through a nurses window.

 

[Biblicist]

Being a Pentecostal for a long time is not a credential, these matters need to be looked into carefully.

In the case of Lorna she was told that while dating her to-be husband that he would die after a certain amount of years. When those years were up he died on "schedule". There is a bit more too it than simply being crazy. Many of those that are crazy exhibit the supernatural. I remember my Psych professor telling me a long time ago about a patient that ripped a door off the hinges and through it down the hallway through a nurses window.

As much as I have certainly witnessed demonic powers at work through individuals, where they have had body strength that is beyond the norm and observed demons speaking through possessed individuals, my point was that when it comes to claims, and they are only claims and nothing else, with regard to supposed visits to heaven and discussions with Angels, is that they can safely be ignored. As for demons possessing people this is certainly real as any seasoned Pentecostal should be able to attest to.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'd like to hear your testimony on that if you are willing. I have no intention of scrutinizing it; I just want to learn more about the moment one is filled with the Holy Spirit. I made a thread about this specific thing but no one responded with their testimony.

This may sound crude, but seek out your own experiences with GOD. Start talking to Him and asking Him about this instead of us.

 

[PottersHands]

Did you just knock my rice off the table?

 

[Biblicist]

If you look at John Piper, he has been praying to speak in tongue but have not received such gift. Either classic or non-classic pentecostals like John Piper does not fit into these scenarios. How do we explain this then?

Hey, I missed this really good question! As to John Piper, undoubtedly most people appreciate him for who he is but it does seem that he has been more than just a bit hamstrung by his hyper-Calvinistic views. I have watched a few of his videos and one in particular where he talks about speaking in tongues but Piper seems to have as many unwarranted man made hangups as one would never hope for. If Piper could break free of his man made restraints then he would be better able to embrace the Fullness of the Spirit.

 

[shioks]

Hey, I missed this really good question! As to John Piper, undoubtedly most people appreciate him for who he is but it does seem that he has been more than just a bit hamstrung by his hyper-Calvinistic views. I have watched a few of his videos and one in particular where he talks about speaking in tongues but Piper seems to have as many unwarranted man made hangups as one would never hope for. If Piper could break free of his man made restraints then he would be better able to embrace the Fullness of the Spirit.

What do you mean by the bold highlighted part?

 

[Biblicist]

What do you mean by the bold highlighted part?

Yes, my statement was a bit ambiguous to say the least.
As much as I and many others value John Piper both for his person and his ministry (except for his hyper-Calvinism), it does seem that his hyper-Calvinism causes him a few troubles.

In the following video where John discusses his attempts to speak in tongues, which is odd language in itself for someone as experienced as he is within the ministry, it appears that Piper struggles to understand how he (and others) can so easily begin to pray in the Spirit (tongues) where I found his very honest views to be rather sad. I hope this helps.

 

[Deadworm]

Biblicist,

I attended Fuller Seminary for a year with John Piper before I transferred out to Princeton Seminary. I would recommend his video on tongues with this qualification: he neglects Paul's celebration of the fact that wants them all to speak in tongues and thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than them all (1 Corinthians 14:5, 18). In the context of 14:18 Paul is discussing praying in tongues (14L14-18) and therefore praying privately in the Spirit. Paul's wish that everyone speak in tongues is an extension of his admonition that we should "zealously seek" the spiritual gifts (12:31). This point is in no way undermined either by Paul's preference for communal prophesying or by his insistence that love is "the more excellent way."

 

[Deadworm]

As much as I have certainly witnessed demonic powers at work through individuals, where they have had body strength that is beyond the norm and observed demons speaking through possessed individuals, my point was that when it comes to claims, and they are only claims and nothing else, with regard to supposed visits to heaven and discussions with Angels, is that they can safely be ignored.

So in your view, Acts 2:17-18" can safely be ignored?" Peter is citing the fulfillment of the prophecy in Joel 2:28 on the Day of Pentecost and that prophesy includes dreams and visions, not just tongues. Do you also dismiss the tours of heavenly realms by Ezekiel and John the seer of the Book of Revelation?

I recently met Mark Smith, a charismatic who regularly sees angels over people. His claims gain credibility when his angelic guidance leads to miraculous healings. For example, his prayers healed the owner of the restaurant (Maverick's) across the street from my apartment of a blood clot in his brain. Then under angelic guidance, he felt contrained to walk up to my friend Dave's table and ask, "Do you have a physical aliment that needs prayer?" A surprised Dave confessed that he had a painful blood clot form his ankle to his groin. He was defying doctors' order not to go out, due the danger of the clot breaking loose and going to his heart or his brain. When Mark prayed for the clot, he again was instantly healed! Bibllicist, you really need to get out more before you quench the Spirit with your unfounded pontifications.

 

[angeltrue]

That is where I struggle as well. I believe like you do that there are three possibilities, Demonic, Human spirit/body(for some manifestations), and Holy Spirit. I also believe there is a fourth that is the most dangerous type and that is fallen angels. These are the worst because they seem to be only a single shade from the truth whereas the demonic can be a bit more on the nose. A modern example of that type is Lorna Byrne *. A scriptural example would be the demon of Acts 16 that followed Paul around saying "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved."

I think that podcast is more of the fourth type. I call it demonic in the general sense.

(* Lorna Byrne claims to see angels and her books and stories lead people to a stronger faith. She has received truthful prophecies but her testimony is that Michael visited her and said. "I have a message for you. You have to write a book about angels and God and love. It will go all over the world and be a bestseller” She claims to have a team of angel guides that include Michael and I think Martin Luther King)

Spirit-guides are supposedly demonic from what I've read in times past. I had a neighbor that studied it extensively. I would be wary of anyone claiming to see manifestations. I watched a documentary about a woman who claimed to be given prophesies and she caused a lot of destruction in her church, where ultimately she told the youth pastor they were meant to be together and the youth pastor killed his wife to achieve the "prophesy." It's something that must be handled very carefully and is fraught with much danger. The evil one can do "signs and wonders" and if possible "can deceive the very elect."

 

[Sanoy]

Spirit-guides are supposedly demonic from what I've read in times past. I had a neighbor that studied it extensively. I would be wary of anyone claiming to see manifestations. I watched a documentary about a woman who claimed to be given prophesies and she caused a lot of destruction in her church, where ultimately she told the youth pastor they were meant to be together and the youth pastor killed his wife to achieve the "prophesy." It's something that must be handled very carefully and is fraught with much danger. The evil one can do "signs and wonders" and if possible "can deceive the very elect."

Can you send me a link to that documentary?