Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

= Ability to explain or translate.

So they had to pray for the ability to explain or translate what they had spoken in tongues... if they could understand it they wouldn't have to pray, would they?

 

[Albion]

Well let me put it to you another way. When those with a Southern or Bostonian accent prays to God in English which of them is praying in their native language? It can't be both as they have different accents and even different phrases.

It doesn't matter what their own language is. The theory--and the claim--is that they are being gifted by God with the ability to speak ANOTHER actual language and do it correctly.

 

[Ron Gurley]

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...doctrine-vs-the-charismatic-movement.8028886/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-last-reformation.8016457/page-6

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/speak-in-tongues-essential.8014644/page-8

 

[swordsman1]

Relax your throat and tongue. Breath normally. Don't think distracting thoughts. Just let any sound come out without thinking about it.

That sort of thing.

Yeah. I don't remember Peter showing Cornelius's household how to speak in tongues. Nor Paul with the disciples of John the Baptist. They just did it instantly.

 

[Dave L]

So they had to pray for the ability to explain or translate what they had spoken in tongues... if they could understand it they wouldn't have to pray, would they?

They understood but prayed just as we do when we explain scripture to others.

 

[Dave L]

Not according to Paul. Why do you persist in promoting the opposite of what the Bible says?

“He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.” (1 Corinthians 14:4)

“Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified.” (1 Corinthians 14:5)

 

[Anto9us]

Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion, Hillsage?

The UDDer people...

this sub-forum has gone through some name-changes

 

[Anto9us]

I was never 'coached' about speaking in tongues...

I have recently edified myself by placing the Cessationists on IGNORE.

 

[Anto9us]

If a Cessationist were speaking in a forest, and there was no Tongues-Gifted believer around to hear him, who could interpret what the Cessationist was saying?

(We have listened to their garbage for so long that, although it makes no sense, we know what they are trying to say.)

 

[Hillsage]

I can't be bothered to play your silly games about the word 'doctor', so if you could just come to the point I might be able comment.

You say this after posting all the silliness at the first? All the while never answer that ONE question of mine which was specifically concerning that silly response. And my 'one question' was;

Since you are sure I'm wrong, why did the KJV/RSV translators NOT capitalize spirit in those earlier versions?

Honestly, I feel like nailing you down is like nailing snot to a fence post. You just keep running away from the 'whole post' and find a 'splinter point' to argue. Anyway...please don't respond to my "silly game" because I no longer want to be bothered with you either, so this will be a win win. but I will share the grammatical lesson of 'the doctor' and 'doctor'.

Pertaining to this verse you quoted post #742 "Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit"

Tell me which "Doctor" in the sentence following is a noun and which one is a verb. And if you're really a sharp sword tell me 'why' that is grammatically so?

"That is a nasty cut, but the doctor is in the office so lets let him doctor it up."

Look in any Greek interlinear at this verse and what you will find is the definite article [THE] in brackets before 'spirit'. It is in [brackets] because it is NOT IN THE GREEK. And it is the definite article in the Greek which is just like the definite article in the English sentence concerning the word doctor. "The doctor" defines the noun being 'the person' and 'doctor' without the definite article make it a verb referencing 'what the doctor DOES'.

In the Acts 2:4 verse there is no definite article before spirit. So just as we are not talking about 'the doctor' noun when referencing 'doctor' verb, neither are we talking about 'The Spirit' noun in this verse. We are talking about what "THE Spirit" does, and that is manifest "spirit" (verb) power. The capitalization in this verse is a false interpretation of the Greek. Over and over at least 50 times in the NT.[/QUOTE]

There are no Greek manuscripts which give 'a' capitalization to any word. When capitalization was first introduced, even over a hundred years ago there were almost 4,000 Greek manuscripts. 127 manuscripts were completely written in individual 'Uncials' or capital Greek lettered words. 3,702 manuscripts were completely written in lower case 'Cursives" or running hand without any Uncials.

POINT BEING: Capitalization is totally based upon English INTERPRETATION and not literal Greek TRANSLATION. (in our English bibles)

And the complete lack of that understanding 'at best' or 'application' at worst, has come up with a lot of bad theology concerning the holy spirit and the Holy Spirit. Anyone wanting to know more....ASK. But if you just want to be a 'dull sword with flying sparks' wanting to fight to defend where you are AT, don't ASK, because I'm going to consider it pointless...at this point.

 

[Dave L]

If a Cessationist were speaking in a forest, and there was no Tongues-Gifted believer around to hear him, who could interpret what the Cessationist was saying?

(We have listened to their garbage for so long that, although it makes no sense, we know what they are trying to say.)

God.

 

[Anto9us]

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

“He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.” (1 Corinthians 14:4)

“Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified.” (1 Corinthians 14:5)

Which doesn't explain why you think Paul is wrong when he says in 1 Co 14:2 that no one understands tongues except for God and yet are they are still edified by the experience.

 

[Dave L]

Which doesn't explain why you think Paul is wrong when he says in 1 Co 14:2 that no one understands tongues except for God and yet are they are still edified by the experience.

The speaker understands but the listeners do not. The speaker is edified because they understand.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

It doesn't matter what their own language is. The theory--and the claim--is that they are being gifted by God with the ability to speak ANOTHER actual language and do it correctly.

But what is 'correctly'?

If only one accent is acceptable for any language how do you deal with the myriads of people who pray in a different accent, all of that wasted prayer to a God who won't listen unless they use the correct accent?

I'm now worried in case I've wasted the last 30 years in prayer and the only accent that God finds acceptable is Geordie... I can't even fake that one convincingly.

How about your accent? Which accent do you use when you pray? How do you know it is the correct one? Can you send me links to it so I can give it a try to replace the Essex accent I have.

 

[Chinchilla]

Not TOTAL sarcasm. But I repeat, how does a person coach someone in speaking in tongues. How do they tell them when they are doing it right and when they are doing it wrong?

If they all had same Spirit by which they were speaking , then the speaking would come out naturally and nobody would need to learn how to do it , moreover it would be God who made HS speak though you by tongues , not you yourself .

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

The speaker understands but the listeners do not. The speaker is edified because they understand.

So you do disagree with Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:2. Why is it so difficult to admit? It would be easier on the rest of us because we could ignore you as someone who doesn't believe that all scripture is God-breathed.

 

[Dave L]

So you do disagree with Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:2. Why is it so difficult to admit? It would be easier on the rest of us because we could ignore you as someone who doesn't believe that all scripture is God-breathed.

But the speaker is edified. And Paul mentions nothing besides understanding what is said as the basis for edification.

 

[swordsman1]

Pertaining to this verse you quoted post #742 "Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit"

Tell me which "Doctor" in the sentence following is a noun and which one is a verb. And if you're really a sharp sword tell me 'why' that is grammatically so?

"That is a nasty cut, but the doctor is in the office so lets let him doctor it up."

Why did a tiny minority of bible translators decide not to capitalize Spirit? I don't know, you'd have to ask them. Unfortunately you can't do that for the KJV as they all died several hundred years ago. But seeing as we've had 400 years of subsequent academic study in Ancient Hebrew and Greek since then I'd rather put my money on the overwhelming consensus of the language scholars translating today's modern bible versions, especially the most respected (NASB, ESV, NIV, NKJV).

Look in any Greek interlinear at this verse and what you will find is the definite article [THE] in brackets before 'spirit'. It is in [brackets] because it is NOT IN THE GREEK. And it is the definite article in the Greek which is just like the definite article in the English sentence concerning the word doctor. "The doctor" defines the noun being 'the person' and 'doctor' without the definite article make it a verb referencing 'what the doctor DOES'.

In the Acts 2:4 verse there is no definite article before spirit. So just as we are not talking about 'the doctor' noun when referencing 'doctor' verb, neither are we talking about 'The Spirit' noun in this verse. We are talking about what "THE Spirit" does, and that is manifest "spirit" (verb) power. The capitalization in this verse is a false interpretation of the Greek. Over and over at least 50 times in the NT.

There are no Greek manuscripts which give 'a' capitalization to any word. When capitalization was first introduced, even over a hundred years ago there were almost 4,000 Greek manuscripts. 127 manuscripts were completely written in individual 'Uncials' or capital Greek lettered words. 3,702 manuscripts were completely written in lower case 'Cursives" or running hand without any Uncials.

POINT BEING: Capitalization is totally based upon English INTERPRETATION and not literal Greek TRANSLATION. (in our English bibles)

And the complete lack of that understanding 'at best' or 'application' at worst, has come up with a lot of bad theology concerning the holy spirit and the Holy Spirit. Anyone wanting to know more....ASK. But if you just want to be a 'dull sword with flying sparks' wanting to fight to defend where you are AT, don't ASK, because I'm going to consider it pointless...at this point.

Well, you'll have to write to the translation of committees of all the bible versions and tell them they've all got it wrong and that the Holy Spirit is not God's Spirit but should instead be translated 'holy spirit'. When at least a decent proportion agree with you and change their translations then we can begin to take your idea seriously. Until then, into the theological dustbin it goes.

 

[Hillsage]

Until then, into the theological dustbin it goes.

The most insightful thing I think I've heard from you. If only the 'application' was directed better, it would have been great.