Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

I agree that is odd. I always understood the passage that if you ONLY have a prayer language or only can give a message in Tongues but cannot interpret it -- you should seek the gift of Interpretation so that you can give a message to the body and not count on someone else to interpret -- it would be awkward indeed if I spoke a message in Tongues to the church, could not interpret it myself, and no one else did either.

I have never seen any of these "bad things" involving tongues, fakery and what-not; the only bogus thing I encountered was Word of Knowledge

Easier to test a word of knowledge and the gifts of healing than the other gifts, which is why the gift of discernment is probably the most underused gift.

 

[Anto9us]

Doesn't that agree with Dave though? (horrors) lol

Yeah. lol

Psa 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Bible is perfect, that doesn't make it the teleios in the Corinthians passage.
It was perfect in Old Testament times when the Psalm was written, it's more perfect now, but is still not THE PERFECT teleios of the Corinthians passage.


My PC is gonna crash, I have Dennis' video going, and BlueletterBible up, and this window...

The video made me think of a young guy that fell out a window, falling asleep when Paul preached a marathon sermon


Act 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
Act 20:8
And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.
Act 20:9
And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
Act 20:10
And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
Act 20:11
When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
Act 20:12
And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.

The Holy Spirit is WILD, I tell ya!

Usually in Koine Greek HOLY SPIRIT was in masculine gender, but sometimes holy spirit is in neuter gender, not often in NT but sometimes. Spirit in Hebrew is Ruach, which is FEMININE!
You cannot put the Holy Spirit in a box -- sometimes Holy Spirit TAKES A WALK ON THE WILD SIDE.

PROPHET IN HEBREW IS NABI -- SEER...

 

[Anto9us]

1Cor 13:10
But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

 

[Anto9us]

Great video, Dennis.

 

[Anto9us]

We should not get hung up about capatalization in our English versions. They are just English translations -- they are not perfect.

As far as the Holy Spirit, we cannot get hung up about gender in the Greek, both masculine and neuter are used. Gender is very useful in figuring out certain stuff, usually very helpful, but Holy Ghost does what He wants to. He's wild.

Definite articles should BE THERE in the Greek if an English translation has one -- sometimes, like Hillsage found, THE will be in our English version when it was NOT there in the Greek. It happens, be careful.

Indefinite articles are always a matter of context, they are not "there" in the Greek like THE is there, the character omicron in front of a noun. Technically, many nouns could take "a" in front of them as a Greek noun is translated into English.

Rom 3:5
But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

The indefinite article 'a' is not present in Greek - the noun ANTHROPOS has an 'a' put before it by context - this technicality is what the Jehovah's Witnesses try to pull a fast one with in the opening of John

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was a god

New World Translation - JW's tryin' to be slick!

When should you put an 'a' in front of a noun and when should you NOT?
Gonna take a lot more semesters than I had to settle all cases of that, but I am sure there are experts who could debunk the JW's translation's eisogesis of trying to say Jesus is not really God, but only 'a god'.

 

[Anto9us]

In my experience, ninety to ninety-five percent of tongues addressed to the congregation are interpreted by someone other than the tongues-speaker.

In my experience, I would say 75 to 80 percent interpreter other than the speaker.

 

[Saint Steven]

1Cor 13:10
But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

I thought we agreed that this is not talking about the completion of the Bible. Paul didn't even know what that was, except for the OT. That would have been his Bible. Not what it means anyway. Right?

 

[Saint Steven]

In my experience, I would say 75 to 80 percent interpreter other than the speaker.

High percentages either way. Point taken. lol

 

[Anto9us]

I thought we agreed that this is not talking about the completion of the Bible.

Darn Tootin' we agree on that -- 1 Cor 13:10 is NOT talking about completion of the Bible.

 

[Anto9us]

Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Are we all there yet? No. Guess we still need the whole list of offices.

 

[Anto9us]

1Co 12:8
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

There ya go, Hillsage, don't tell anybody, but none of the four THE's that I bolded and italicized are present in the Greek - and πνεῦμα is TWICE given a capital S when the words were lowercase in miniscules and all caps in UNCIALS

Call the TRANSLATION POLICE!! Raise the KJV translators from the dead and pronounce judgement most dire!!!

 

[Anto9us]

YLT - Young's Literal Translation

for to one through the Spirit hath been given a word of wisdom, and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;

Even Young only has it half-right, and he's supposed to be LITERAL !!

 

[Anto9us]

http://www.biblefood.com/articthe2.html

RULES CONCERNING THE GREEK DEFINITE ARTICLE "THE"

A collection of Koine Greek study notes, by Robert T. Jones III. Page numbers in parenthesis are where further amplification can be found in "Beginners Grammar of the Greek New Testament", by William Hersey Davis, published in 1923 by Harper and Row. For in-depth study, see "A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in Light of Historical Research", by A.T. Robertson, published by Hodder & Stoughton, New York, 1914.

1. The Greek language "definite" article is "the". Greek has no "indefinite" article (a), so, "adelphos" means either "brother", or "a brother", depending on the context. The English article "the" should NEVER be added when the Greek definite article is absent. In the plural, Greek, like English, has no indefinite article (a), but "anthropoi" means "men", not "the men". The absence and presence of the Greek definite article "the" is VERY VERY significant! The definite article "the" is an adjective, and its gender, number, and case ALWAYS match the word it modifies. (See page 32-34, 52, and 56-58)

2. For example, the definite article `o (pronounced "ho"), (the), is an ADJECTIVE, and as such is declined and agrees in gender, number and case with the noun it modifies:

3. The masculine article "`o" (ho) indicates masculine gender.

The feminine article "`eta" (hay) indicates feminine gender.

The neuter article "to'" (toe) indicates neuter gender.


Tsk Tsk
Definite articles in English translations when they are not there in the Greek...
My my Hey hey

 

[Saint Steven]

Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Are we all there yet? No. Guess we still need the whole list of offices.

Right. Pastors and PROPHETS! (and apostles too)

 

[Saint Steven]

YLT - Young's Literal Translation

for to one through the Spirit hath been given a word of wisdom, and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;

Even Young only has it half-right, and he's supposed to be LITERAL !!

But doesn't the translation into English require that the "the"s be present? Phrase to phrase, rather than word for word?

The same is true for Spanish. Que hora es? = What hour is? (word for word) The English translation requires the word "it". What hour is it? Or, What time is it? (the meaning in English) Who would complain that "it" (or "time") is not in the original? Am I missing something here?

 

[Hillsage]

What was Dave saying about the Bible being "PERFECT"?

You hear people say a lot of things. Things which are often assumed to be a 'strong theological position'. But quite often, from a doctor's perspective they look a bit more like a 'strong mental condition'.

 

[Anto9us]

Supposedly you are not supposed to put the THE there in English if it is NOT there in the Greek, yet I imagine it happens more than we realize.

I think the THE's are there in the Greek New Testament like 20,000 times. I would wager that any English translation has more THE's in it than the Greek New Testament does.

The Spanish example is a good one for adding an English word to make the English phrase make more sense. But as far as a Mexican Standoff -- gimme time and I will write up an illustration of how some reincarnationists got me over a barrel when I tried to use Hebrews 9:27 to discount reincarnation.

 

[Anto9us]

Heb 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

There is no 'the' in the Greek in front of judgement. When the THE is there, most readers conjure up a picture of THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT or something similar.

The Greek just says 'And as it is appointed a man once to die, but judgement (KRISIS) after this.'

The reincarnationists said "We believe that. You die once - you have a KRISIS (judgement) and based on that is the next stage of your soul, whether it's another life on earth for you to be reincarnated in, or spending some time in another realm -- one death, one judgement - then here ya go again"

So in that case the presence of a THE in English made me think that verse was something that would quash reincarnation, but to the reincarnationists, it didn't. I didn't agree with them, but they did have a point about no THE in the Greek literally meaning you die once and there is judgement, there was some plausibilty in their way of disarming that verse as a nullifier of reincarnation.

 

[Saint Steven]

Supposedly you are not supposed to put the THE there in English if it is NOT there in the Greek, yet I imagine it happens more than we realize.

I think the THE's are there in the Greek New Testament like 20,000 times. I would wager that any English translation has more THE's in it than the Greek New Testament does.

The Spanish example is a good one for adding an English word to make the English phrase make more sense. But as far as a Mexican Standoff -- gimme time and I will write up an illustration of how some reincarnationists got me over a barrel when I tried to use Hebrews 9:27 to discount reincarnation.

What I am trying to say is that the "It's not in the Greek." argument is bogus sometimes.

It would be like arguing that "time" is not in the Spanish for, Que hora es? True, but a bogus argument. It still means, What time is it?, in English.

Please share your Mexican Standoff. Thanks.

 

[Anto9us]

http://inthesaltshaker.com/drills/article2.htm

Because the article is found in excess of 20,000 time in the GNT, and is used for so many different purposes, it is very important to understand the many ways in which it can be used. The presence of a Greek article can affect the meaning of the text profoundly at times, or make clear an intended meaning which would otherwise remain in doubt. Wallace (with a quote from Robertson's Grammar) states: "'The article is never meaningless in Greek, though it often fails to correspond with the English idiom.... Its free use leads to exactness and finesse.' In the least, we cannot treat it lightly, for its presence or absence is the crucial element to unlocking the meaning of scores of passages in the New Testament."

Daniel Wallace is a fallible human being, but in Greek Grammar he is probably the top dog among modern scholars.