Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

[Saint Steven]

1Co 12:8
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

There ya go, Hillsage, don't tell anybody, but none of the four THE's that I bolded and italicized are present in the Greek - and πνεῦμα is TWICE given a capital S when the words were lowercase in miniscules and all caps in UNCIALS

Call the TRANSLATION POLICE!! Raise the KJV translators from the dead and pronounce judgement most dire!!!

This is a case where I think they NEED to be there in the English. Am I missing something?

 

[Anto9us]

I see your point, Steve, and by now you have seen my Mexican Standoff, how I did not convince reincarnationists that Hebrews 9:27 prohibited reincarnation.

As to when the presence or absence of THE in the Greek makes any difference as to our topic here, I don't know, but would almost be willing to PROPHESY that if the Greek New Testament has 20,000 occurences of the Greek words for THE, then any English translation has MORE. The translators are NOT GOING TO MISS IT IF IT IS THERE, and sometimes put in in the English when it is NOT in the Greek.

Que hora es? could almost be considered an IDIOM, a little different than presence/absence of definite articles.

 

[Anto9us]

This is a case where I think they NEED to be there in the English. Am I missing something?

I guess you are not missing something, every translators puts THE's in that verse in English and they are not there in the Greek

 

[Anto9us]

Greek scholars give out these RULES, and then do not necessarily do the translating in accordance with them. It is like they are saying "Do as I say, not as I do".

Don't put the THE there if it's not in the Greek!

Then they put "the's" in the English translation anyway.

What are we to do? Keep arguing verses on message boards, one day it might make a difference.

 

[Hillsage]

1Co 12:8
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

There ya go, Hillsage, don't tell anybody, but none of the four THE's that I bolded and italicized are present in the Greek - and πνεῦμα is TWICE given a capital S when the words were lowercase in miniscules and all caps in UNCIALS

Call the TRANSLATION POLICE!! Raise the KJV translators from the dead and pronounce judgement most dire!!!

I'm not sure you got it correct. Actually the definite article 'the' is in the Greek in verses 7, 8 and 10 mentioning "the Spirit" because it is talking about the GIVER of all the spiritual power gifts of wisdom and knowledge in verse 8. I am looking at three different Greek Interlinears that I have and all three agree that the definite article IS in the Greek. So I'm not sure what Greek text you are looking at.

But reading from the book; "Here as in verse 7, it is the GIVER in both cases." In the Authorized Version (KJV) of 1611 both were interpreted in the lower case 'spirit' But the Revised Version (KJV) has both in upper case 'Spirit' which is correct.

But if we go to another verse in Corinthians I can show a bit more of what I'm talking about.

The Greek literally says "in spirit" and there is no definite article. But it could have one because it is still talking about 'the spirit' of the man and then he talks about what 'that spirit' is DOING, which is speaking/praying in tongues. We know this isn't a manifestation from The Holy Spirit because it is our spirit talking to God in a supernaturally/spiritual language.

KJV 1CO 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

NAS 1CO 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

NAS is really the best, but even it added the word "his" which isn't in the Greek but is still correct.

Now let's go to the worst;
RSV 1CO 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

Here in the RSV the translators added a 'the' in the English when it wasn't in the Greek and then capitalized spirit making it 'the Spirit of God'. Can you see a bit of confusion here for someone? When KJV above added a 'the' at least it didn't capitalize 'spirit'.

I know this is new and a bit chewy, but after you've spent some time doing it you might even end up like I used to do. I'd read a verse and just decide if the word 'spirit' was really referring to the 'GIVER' of the 'GIFT' contextually, and then go look it up in the Interlinear. It was enlightening as to how many times I saw what the book shows and modern translators are clueless of.

 

[Hillsage]

This is a case where I think they NEED to be there in the English. Am I missing something?

Bingo Saint Steven you got it. Now I need to find out what Greek text Anton9us is looking at.

 

[Hillsage]

YLT - Young's Literal Translation

for to one through the Spirit hath been given a word of wisdom, and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;

Even Young only has it half-right, and he's supposed to be LITERAL !!

Actually Young is pretty good concerning it. One of my Interlinears leaves out the 'a' but the other two have an 'a'. But all three correctly say 'the Spirit'.

Now maybe I'm caught up. If not, I'm done anyway.

Night all.

 

[Hillsage]

But doesn't the translation into English require that the "the"s be present? Phrase to phrase, rather than word for word?

The same is true for Spanish. Que hora es? = What hour is? (word for word) The English translation requires the word "it". What hour is it? Or, What time is it? (the meaning in English) Who would complain that "it" (or "time") is not in the original? Am I missing something here?

OK, not done I guess. Again you are right and that is the great difficulty translators face when trying to cross from one language to the next. Errors are simply going to be there in the English for us. And then when someone wants to argue with me concerning how I'm wrong compared to some 'paraphrase' translation they're using.

Lights out for sure now.

 

[Saint Steven]

I see your point, Steve, and by now you have seen my Mexican Standoff, how I did not convince reincarnationists that Hebrews 9:27 prohibited reincarnation.

As to when the presence or absence of THE in the Greek makes any difference as to our topic here, I don't know, but would almost be willing to PROPHESY that if the Greek New Testament has 20,000 occurences of the Greek words for THE, then any English translation has MORE. The translators are NOT GOING TO MISS IT IF IT IS THERE, and sometimes put in in the English when it is NOT in the Greek.

Que hora es? could almost be considered an IDIOM, a little different than presence/absence of definite articles.

I don't mind if we are off topic a bit. We shouldn't go on for pages and pages... although it looks as though we are about done here. (page 43-44) So, this is interesting... others may find it so and even chime in.

Aren't we dealing with idioms in translation as well. Here, this will get us back close to topic. Tell me what you make of this. I'm guessing the phrase "nine in the morning" is not in the Greek. (the third hour?)

Acts 2:15
These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!

 

[Saint Steven]

Greek scholars give out these RULES, and then do not necessarily do the translating in accordance with them. It is like they are saying "Do as I say, not as I do".

Don't put the THE there if it's not in the Greek!

Then they put "the's" in the English translation anyway.

What are we to do? Keep arguing verses on message boards, one day it might make a difference.

As I see it, there needs to be a balance between accuracy and clarity.
We shouldn't add something that isn't there, but what the original writers were trying to communicate needs to be clear in the language of the modern reader. Balance.

I had one Greek class at church decades ago. I own a Greek interlinear NT and a Greek Lexicon. I also use the Strong's online language lexicon sometimes. And have read a bit online about Bible translations and such. Interesting topic, but you are a lot more knowledgeable than I.

Therefore, this discussion is EDIFYING for me. It may all be Greek to someone else. lol

 

[Saint Steven]

OK, not done I guess. Again you are right and that is the great difficulty translators face when trying to cross from one language to the next. Errors are simply going to be there in the English for us. And then when someone wants to argue with me concerning how I'm wrong compared to some 'paraphrase' translation they're using.

Lights out for sure now.

Thanks for continuing in this discussion. You guys were over my head earlier, but now we are at a level where I can participate. I appreciate that. Interesting as well.

Interesting to consider all this when we see posters going head to head arguing about the meaning of something. It typically comes down to one word or phrase in a verse that changes the whole meaning. Or my personal favorite (sarcasm) is when someone claims their understanding of a verse is THE WORD OF GOD. And want to know why you are taking a position AGAINST God. Excuse me?

I tend to see some issues as black and white, and others as gray areas.

But I can't seem to get consensus on what the gray areas are. Everyone wants to make everything black and white.

Just to be clear, the gray areas to me are things where we have freedom of choice to form our own position without violating scripture. Like...

Romans 14:5
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But what do we see in the church? Christians will fight each other tooth and nail about a day of worship. It's a gray area.

 

[Dave L]

No he doesn't, he says the opposite: No-one except God can understand someone speaking in tongues (14:2); the speaker in tongues edifies himself (14:4) unless there is an interpretation (14:5) in which case others are edified.

So no-one understands a tongue (verse 2) and yet is edified... contrary to your insistence that the speaker must understand their tongue in order to be edified.

So either Paul is wrong when he tells us that no-one understands a tongue, or you are wrong when you insist that the speaker must understand the tongue.

I know where I'd put my money.

If the speaker is edified it is because he or she understands what they are saying. If they do not understand, they are making noise only.

 

[Dave L]

So what about this video.........
do you believe that a man of G-d might just be able to command the spirit of a child to go back into their body?

This can be useful if you are ever on the scene of an accident.......

I don't take stock in other people's experiences. Paul said he went to heaven it was not possible to put into words what he saw.

 

[Paidiske]

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