Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

[Dave L]

No. If Christ had not ascended, Paul would not have HEARD him. Not the same as seeing the Lord personally after his resurrection. (before his ascension) Paul did not see the resurrected Christ.

Why did Paul go blind?

 

[Dave L]

He was the only one who saw the vision. And in the case of Saul, the Lord spoke to him. As I recall, the only thing seen was a blinding light flashing around him. Not the same as seeing the Lord personally after his resurrection. (before his ascension)

Regardless, had Jesus not risen, none of this would have happened.

 

[Saint Steven]

An Apostle had to be an eye witness of Christ's resurrection. Paul was (on the road to Damascus) as was Ananias when Jesus sent him to Paul.
“Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.” (Acts 1:22)

The scripture, Acts 1:22, is about selecting a replacement for Judas. Not the requirements for apostleship. Once the apostle Paul was added, the floodgates were opened. Or, Ananias as you have noted. (personally granting him apostleship)

 

[Saint Steven]

Why did Paul go blind?

Blinding light all around him. He was blinded, thus seeing nothing.

 

[Dave L]

The scripture, Acts 1:22, is about selecting a replacement for Judas. Not the requirements for apostleship. Once the apostle Paul was added, the floodgates were opened. Or, Ananias as you have noted. (personally granting him apostleship)

Not so.
“Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.” (Acts 1:22)

 

[Dave L]

Blinding light all around him. He was blinded, thus seeing nothing.

This was all proof of Jesus' resurrection.

 

[Saint Steven]

Regardless, had Jesus not risen, none of this would have happened.

The ever-expanding circle that accommodates your doctrine.
You did the same thing with Pentecost. Claiming the devout Jews in Jerusalem were manifesting spiritual gifts before Peter informed them that AFTER they were baptized with water, they would receive the promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit. (manifestations)

 

[Dave L]

The ever-expanding circle that accommodates your doctrine.
You did the same thing with Pentecost. Claiming the devout Jews in Jerusalem were manifesting spiritual gifts before Peter informed them that AFTER they were baptized with water, they would receive the promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit. (manifestations)

If Jesus personally sent Ananias to Paul, and ordained Paul as the Apostles to the gentiles, what is the basis of your claim?

 

[Saint Steven]

Not so.
“Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.” (Acts 1:22)

Written after the resurrection. The context indicates just what I have said. It applied only to the Twelve.

 

[Dave L]

Written after the resurrection. The context indicates just what I have said. It applied only to the Twelve.

Paul was an Apostle ordained by Christ personally. How can this be if what you say is true?

 

[Dan the deacon]

Yes.

How do you know?

 

[Saint Steven]

If Jesus personally sent Ananias to Paul, and ordained Paul as the Apostles to the gentiles, what is the basis of your claim?

The question remains. Where do we draw the line on apostles?

As soon as the apostle Paul was added, the floodgates were opened. There is no end to apostleship now. Therefore the charismatic gifts are still being distributed to this day. Because apostleship has continued unstopped.

 

[Saint Steven]

Paul was an Apostle ordained by Christ personally. How can this be if what you say is true?

I don't doubt the apostleship of Paul. I am saying it opened the floodgates for apostleship. Once you cross the line of the original 12, where does it stop? You have failed to answer this question, even though I have asked you repeatedly.

 

[Dave L]

I don't doubt the apostleship of Paul. I am saying it opened the floodgates for apostleship. Once you cross the line of the original 12, where does it stop? You have failed to answer this question, even though I have asked you repeatedly.

It stopped with Jesus not personally sending those who were witnesses of his resurrection. The pool is long dried up.

 

[Saint Steven]

It stopped with Jesus not personally sending those who were witnesses of his resurrection. The pool is long dried up.

Again. the apostle Paul was not an eye-witness of his resurrection. And neither was Ananias. (to my knowledge) Not to mention Barnabas, (named an apostle) the elders at Timothy's church, or Timothy himself. All administering gifts.

 

[Saint Steven]

It stopped with Jesus not personally sending those who were witnesses of his resurrection. The pool is long dried up.

An excellent volley of posts back and forth ended with this post unanswered.
If it was a chess game, I would say, "Check."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Again. the apostle Paul was not an eye-witness of his resurrection. And neither was Ananias. (to my knowledge) Not to mention Barnabas, (named an apostle) the elders at Timothy's church, or Timothy himself. All administering gifts.

 

[DennisTate]

According to scripture, God enabled believers to speak to him in a heavenly language. A language unknown except by him and those to whom he gave a gift for interpreting it (1 Corinthians 14:27–28).

Many think the Apostles spoke supernaturally in human languages at Pentecost. And people from different nations naturally understood what they said in their own tongue. But Paul says when a person speaks in tongues, they speak to God and not to men (1 Corinthians 14:2). So on Pentecost, the Apostles spoke to God in a heavenly tongue and devout Jews from every nation overheard them in their own native tongue. So they must have received the gift of interpreting too.

God delivered the gift of tongues personally in the baptism of the Holy Spirit during the Jewish outpouring and about seven years later in the gentile outpouring at Cornelius’ house. But all other times he delivered the gift of tongues through the Apostles’ hands (Acts 8:18). Scripture does not mention any other means of distribution apart from these.

God placed tongues and interpretation into groups of converts in various regions through the Apostles. So each church would have God’s word spoken personally to them by individual members who received the gift. We see the laying on of hands in Jerusalem (Acts 6:6), Ephesus (Acts 19:1–7), and Samaria (Acts 8:14–17) and throughout Paul’s journeys where he gave the gifts (2 Timothy 1:6; Romans 1:11). God sent Ananias, who according to history was one of the original seventy disciples ordained by Christ, through whose hands Paul became healed and filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17).

They spoke God’s word through tongues and interpretation and through prophecy. With this they passed around the Apostle’s writings that would become the New Testament scriptures. Paul said tongues would stop when a better way, one that is perfect comes (1 Corinthians 13:8–10.)

Many think perfection happens in the new heavens and earth. But Paul qualifies this by saying whenever it comes, faith, hope and love would remain (1 Corinthians 13:13). Faith, hope and love fits well into this present world where we need all the faith, hope and love we can get. But in the world to come we’ll have all we ever hoped for and believed in. So Paul inferred tongues would stop sometime before Christ’s return on the last day, when hope and faith find fulfillment in the new world.

Paul urged believers to come behind in no gift until the coming (apocalypse or Revelation) of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:7). This is the same word John uses for the apocalypse of Jesus Christ. What we call the book of Revelation.

So this is likely what Paul saw through a glass darkly. A revelation he knew was coming but didn’t know how or when. Paul urged them to continue seeking spiritual gifts until Christ provided a revelation. We know a revelation came through John about the time speaking in tongues disappears from history.

Many gifts continue today as permanent endowments to the Church. We have miracles and healings through the prayer of faith (James 5:15). Also pastors, evangelists and teachers with the Apostles and Prophets cast in their writings (Ephesians 4:11). But God removed the apostolic signs and wonders with the death of the last Apostle. And he gave us a more sure word of prophecy than tongues and prophecy could provide (2 Peter 1:17–20).

God withdrew the Apostles, honoring them in the Book of Revelation. He wrote their names in the foundations of heavenly Jerusalem with the names of the twelve sons of Israel. This brought to a close the apostolic age and the gifts that flowed through their hands.

I have heard my wife speak in tongues many times.......
and the first time that she ever got this gift was in Quito, Ecuador.... and a woman there told her that she had praised G-d in a dialect from India. The woman was from India.......

My wife is so gifted that somehow Messiah Yeshua - Jesus told her that I was going to be her husband..... and that she should fast and pray for me for 35 days.

She fasted for three days / week for four weeks and then seven days in a row for the fifth week..... I was 3000 miles north of her going though the most amazing Shalom / peace of mind that I had experienced in my entire life...... and especially in the last decade.... 1990 - 2000.

 

[Anto9us]

"Dave L said:
According to scripture, God enabled believers to speak to him in a heavenly language."

And so began this long thread of now 35 pages. Throughout it, two main perpetrators of the Cessationist doctrine disagree on whether the tongues were heavenly or earthly.

There has been insistence by Cessationists that the completion of the New Testament was the incident that Paul referred to as a future "that which is complete or perfect" which would cause to 'cease' the three gifts of tongues, prophecy and Word of Knowledge -- although there has been ZERO scriptural support for the idea that the completed Bible would put an end to these gifts, iow, the Bible does NOT SAY that its own coming will be the "that which is perfect" that Paul spoke of in connection with the ceasing of the three gifts.

Somehow, to what the Bible actually said about three particular gifts coming to an end in the future, was hooked on an idea that Apostles and Prophets would cease also. Again, ZERO biblical support for that.

As to WHEN this alleged 'cessation' occurred, the goalposts keep getting shifted dramatically -- the death of the last apostle, the penning of Revelation, the distribution of the completed New Testament; and as I said in an earlier post -- the date range could be from late-sixties AD until 7th century AD, for it was until then that certain parts of the church finally accepted the book of Revelation and discontinued their Arianism.

Augustine was arguing with Donatists in the 4th century, one of the Donatists beliefs was speaking in tongues -- this was GOING ON IN AUGUSTINE's time -- it does not matter if a certain quote attributed to Augustine is 'proved valid' or not -- it is well-known that Augustine combatted the Donatists for decades and that Donatists spoke in tongues. That's fourth century, people. That's way later than the cessationists claim for tongues still being practiced.

From all reports I can see -- charismatic/pentecostal churches are growing today faster than other groups.

What are Cessationists so scared of? WHY do they feel a need to 'disallow' or DISMISS the practices of a big group of Christians that is getting bigger and bigger as time goes on?

 

[Albion]

What are Cessationists so scared of?

Nothing--although I get the idea that Continuationists like to think they are.

On the bigger issue you raise, yes, it is true that in the course of this thread, there have been diverse opinions expressed among the Cessationists, but also among the Continuationists. I think that all we can do is admit that there are differences of opinion on some matters among people of both camps, and try to address that as best we can.

As for the Cessationist POV, I persist in believing that the main issue with them is that since tongues did cease, there really isn't much more that needs to be said. It happened. No elaborate or convoluted interpretation of Scripture is necessary.

 

[Anto9us]

I agree that continuationists disagree on some things ourselves.

As to the insistence that Tongues DID CEASE -- no, they didn't. It STILL GOES ON, despite the Cessationists insistence that it is 'fake', 'non-genuine", etc.

Charismatic/Pentecostal Christianity is growing faster than ever.

https://www.christiantoday.com/article/charismatic.christianity.in.us.myths.exposed/16054.htm

Charismatic and Pentecostal Christians over the past decade have grown from about 30 percent to 36 percent of American adults, or about 80 million people. One out of every four Protestant churches in the United States (23 percent) is a charismatic congregation.

George Barna, who directed the research projects, commented that the growth in the charismatic and Pentecostal movements in America is not surprising because it matches the current cultural trend in mainstream society.