Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

[Anto9us]

It was 325 AD when Athanasius had an Easter letter that enumerated the 27 books of the New Testament - that is the first known catalog of our current NT.

About that time, the first council of Nicea was setting down the early version of the Nicene Creed.

Cessationists have pegged death of last apostle (John) - writing of Revelation (which may or may not have been the last NT book written) - 'distribution of the New Testament' (remember in some parts of teh world Revelation and other books were not accepted for centuries) -- there is a lot of WAFFLE TIME for Cessationists...

but whenever it was -- picture this -- some elders lay hands on a new convert and pray that he receives the Holy Ghost -- and NUTHIN HAPPENS !!

The Cessationists want us to think the Ghost just FADED OUT and eventually CEASED - such is the Cessationist world -- those elders in this hypothetical situation go to fasting and prayer, wondering why the one they laid hands on never received the gift and the signs following...

A Prophet is on his way to tell those elders that tongues, prophecy and word of knowledge have CEASED, but when he gets to them - he can no longer prophesy or give a word of knowledge

Then someone finds a SCROLL in a cave -- written by First Century Cessationists -- the Chosen, the Enlightened, the Elect -- and the scroll is an interpretation of Corinthians that warns that the CEASING of tongues, prophecy and Word of Knowledge is imminent !!

The scroll is read at a gathering of people who THOUGHT THEY WERE APOSTLES but now have to resign that office!

Former Prophets have to get a second job -- most become copiers of THE PERFECT (which only recently was published) -- a lot of handwritten copies are needed - there is no printing press.

Apostles become tentmakers full-time.

A TENT CITY is established and a big convention is held for former Tongue-Talkers to COPE with the fact that their gift has CEASED!!

One by one, Phillip's four daughters -- well on in years -- lose their ability to prophesy.

One guy in Ephesus, who had been famous for Interpretation of Tongues -- COMMITS SUICIDE because there are no more tongues to interpret...

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

The writing date for Revelation is AD 95.
Check out these dates and evidence of the gifts in operation. Especially tongues.

A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says:
"Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished
for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held
rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet
through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly
embraced the true faith with their whole minds."

A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John.
He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear
many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit
speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden
things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."

A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.

A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days,
he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."

A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and
considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid
hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."

Source link

Not that it affects your main point, but the majority of the internal and external evidence actually favors an earlier date for Revelation. Irenaeus was trying to convey childhood memories of what Polycarp taught him, and his statement is actually ambiguous as to whether He meant Domition or Domitius Nero. Eusubius (mid third to 4th century) takes it as referring to Domition, and most support we have for the 'Domitian' view merely quote Eusebius' interpretation of Irenaeus - which does nothing to collaborate the strength of the view.

One can find many early writings and church fathers who support an earlier date [Muratorian Canon; Tertullian; Epiphanius; the Syriac versions of Revelation; Arethas; Papias; the Shepherd of Hermas, etc.]

For example, the Muratorian Canon (A.D. 170, prior to Eusebius) states, "“The blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name.” - i.e. holds that Revelation was completed before the last of Paul's names epistles.

[Question: When was the book of Revelation written?
See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/28088?ori=167400]

 

[Anto9us]

Of course, in this Cessationist fantasy -- there are some older Christians who have spoken in Tongues most of their lives -- and THEY THINK THEY CAN STILL DO IT -- They DO still do it!

People are divided on whether these charismatics have gone to FAKING or if their gift is still valid...

Arians are having a field day - getting more powerful by the day - as true Christians have lost some of their power and try to COPE with Cessation...

One guy in Antioch jumps off a building...

Medicinal herbs are given in the tent cities -- trying to address what would be known in our time as dopaminergic gene disturbance in the former tongue-talkers...

The herbs prevent young men from having visions and prevent old men from dreaming...

 

[swordsman1]

For one thing the verse doesn't say "HOLY SPIRIT" as you assume. It says "spirit" period. But because of the capitalization you can waffle out. I never did, I said you were baptized by "the Spirit" which is still true. But, as you well know my theology deals with things I can't even get in to, when those I deal with are drowning in the shallows.

We haven't even begun to talk about my teachings of capitalization, or the teachings concerning decomai and lambano concerning the Greek word 'receiving' as being specific for the reception of the holy spirit of Christ for salvation versus the receiving of the supernatural holy spirit power FROM the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. So no I have no problem saying that what I said before has not changed one bit. You're just not 'seeing' what it truly being said.
Go back to my post before the last post and see if I am not STILL saying the very same thing I WAS saying which your GRUDEM theology also does not understand because he too is unable to reference biblical context outside of the "ungifted/unlearned" indoctrinated pretext.

That's what I said before, and you didn't catch it then and still don't. From my post before the post where 'you think' I've made a track change.....NOT!!!

Pay attention to my capitalizations. I'm simply said more than your theology has ever been able relate to.


So I made no track change, but you need to and won't. I think i t's called "kicking against the goads."

I seem to remember you repeatedly harping on about a similarly bizarre theory about "spiritual brothers" until I mustered up enough enthusiasm to finally look at it and then quickly debunked it!

 

[swordsman1]

You need to pick a side of the argument to be on.

I've never switched.

 

[Anto9us]

btw, I too, Jennifer - believe in a Neronic date for Revelation, late sixties, and am uncertain if it was the last NT Book written.
The Jesus Papyrus and theories by Carston Theide could be correct - and ALL of the NT books could have been completed before Jerusalem fell in 70 AD. In fact it is outlandish to consider any New Testament author writing after 70 AD and NEVER MENTIONING THE TEMPLE DESTRUCTION

 

[Hillsage]

That is so funny. Thanks, you made my day.

Thanks for the feedback SS. I know there will be those who will confuse assurance with arrogance. But they don't believe in the SPIRITUAL gift of discernment either.

Man this thread is moving so fast I don't even have time to read anything not addressed to me.

 

[Hillsage]

I seem to remember you repeatedly harping on about a similarly bizarre theory about "spiritual brothers" until I mustered up enough enthusiasm to finally look at it and then quickly debunked it!

Maybe you debunked it to yourself. I don't remember you debunking anything with me.

In fact, my experience in the past has mostly been that you just disappear.

 

[Anto9us]

Back to the Cessationist fantasy -- one of the disturbing things is that prophets, Tongue-speakers and Word of Knowledge Givers -- are not all losing their gifts at the same time...

The cessation hits one city at a time - a guy in Pergamum that has spoken in tongues since age 19 cannot do it anymore at 45...

 

[swordsman1]

Of course it isn't! But if a person takes steps of faith involving asking and receiving and then releases faith to speak in tongues, God will honour that person's faith and inspire the language. It is the faith of the person approaching God that makes the difference.

Where does it say asking for a gift and having sufficient faith to receive it is a necessary requirement for receiving that gift? Did the disciples ask for the gift of tongues and muster up enough faith before they received it? They never even knew such a thing existed! Ditto Cornelius. Ditto John's disciples. The only condition I can see for receiving a gift is that it must be the sovereign will of the Spirit (1 Cor 12:11).

In my reading of Acts and early Church history up to the fourth century, tongues, along with healing were a normal part of church activity. The number of Church fathers who mentioned tongues and healing treated them as being a normal for every person who received Christ. But there was a significant change after the fourth century.

No they didn't. Even the earliest fathers (c100-200) said tongues was rare, and it became rarer still until the later fathers (c300-400) declared it to have ceased.

 

[swordsman1]

It's very clear that tongues and prophecy continue as gifts the Holy Spirit may give until we "see face to face" and "know fully" - i.e. until we come face to face with Christ at His second coming.

There is no mention of Christ or his return in 1 Cor 13:8-13. You might want to read my previous post in this thread about that. https://www.christianforums.com/thr...sationists’-view.8075635/page-4#post-73012792

 

[swordsman1]

It was 325 AD when Athanasius had an Easter letter that enumerated the 27 books of the New Testament - that is the first known catalog of our current NT.

About that time, the first council of Nicea was setting down the early version of the Nicene Creed.

Cessationists have pegged death of last apostle (John) - writing of Revelation (which may or may not have been the last NT book written) - 'distribution of the New Testament' (remember in some parts of teh world Revelation and other books were not accepted for centuries) -- there is a lot of WAFFLE TIME for Cessationists...

but whenever it was -- picture this -- some elders lay hands on a new convert and pray that he receives the Holy Ghost -- and NUTHIN HAPPENS !!

The Cessationists want us to think the Ghost just FADED OUT and eventually CEASED - such is the Cessationist world -- those elders in this hypothetical situation go to fasting and prayer, wondering why the one they laid hands on never received the gift and the signs following...

A Prophet is on his way to tell those elders that tongues, prophecy and word of knowledge have CEASED, but when he gets to them - he can no longer prophesy or give a word of knowledge

Then someone finds a SCROLL in a cave -- written by First Century Cessationists -- the Chosen, the Enlightened, the Elect -- and the scroll is an interpretation of Corinthians that warns that the CEASING of tongues, prophecy and Word of Knowledge is imminent !!

The scroll is read at a gathering of people who THOUGHT THEY WERE APOSTLES but now have to resign that office!

Former Prophets have to get a second job -- most become copiers of THE PERFECT (which only recently was published) -- a lot of handwritten copies are needed - there is no printing press.

Apostles become tentmakers full-time.

A TENT CITY is established and a big convention is held for former Tongue-Talkers to COPE with the fact that their gift has CEASED!!

One by one, Phillip's four daughters -- well on in years -- lose their ability to prophesy.

One guy in Ephesus, who had been famous for Interpretation of Tongues -- COMMITS SUICIDE because there are no more tongues to interpret...

What were you saying about WAFFLE?

 

[Anto9us]

Job 38:4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Verse 7 would have been pretty hard without vocal cords.

 

[Anto9us]

The WAFFLE is the RANGE OF TIME that transpired before THE GREAT CESSATION.

Cessationists have proposed:
1. death of the last apostle
2. finishing the last book of the New Testament
3. the DISPERSION of the finished New Testament -which in some parts of the world would be centuries

also, the book of Revelation -- now known to be part of THE PERFECT -- was not accepted in some areas for centuries more

The Waffle is the range of time Cessationists have for their alleged FADING OUT of tongues, prophecy and Word of Knowledge

MY satire is for the purpose of showing how ridiculous it would be for a generation who had used these gifts for decades finding themselves unable to use them any longer

 

[Saint Steven]

I've never switched.

You've never picked. How could you switch?

 

[Anto9us]

Curtonius the Lesser was a believer from Laodicea who spoke in Tongues during the "Overlap Period"; just prior to THE GREAT CESSATION -- these were the Glory Days when a believer had a written New Testament as well as still being able to use the gifts!!

He had quite a following, and would read from the New Testament a few passages, then give a message in Tongues. Usually Drusilla his wife gave the Interpretation, then more reading of the New Testament.

One sunday he read and spoke in Tongues as usual -- but all of a sudden, Drusilla lost her power of Interpreation -- and Curtonius' message was left uninterpreted; and confusion reigned in Laodicea.

 

[Saint Steven]

btw, I too, Jennifer - believe in a Neronic date for Revelation, late sixties, and am uncertain if it was the last NT Book written.
The Jesus Papyrus and theories by Carston Theide could be correct - and ALL of the NT books could have been completed before Jerusalem fell in 70 AD. In fact it is outlandish to consider any New Testament author writing after 70 AD and NEVER MENTIONING THE TEMPLE DESTRUCTION

If 70 AD is accurate, then a half dozen books were written after that. As I understand it.

 

[Saint Steven]

…
MY satire is for the purpose of showing how ridiculous it would be for a generation who had used these gifts for decades finding themselves unable to use them any longer

Right. I'm trying to imagine a tongues speaker choking on their words as the last Apostle gave up "the Ghost".

 

[Saint Steven]

Curtonius the Lesser was a believer from Laodicea who spoke in Tongues during the "Overlap Period"; just prior to THE GREAT CESSATION -- these were the Glory Days when a believer had a written New Testament as well as still being able to use the gifts!!

He had quite a following, and would read from the New Testament a few passages, then give a message in Tongues. Usually Drusilla his wife gave the Interpretation, then more reading of the New Testament.

One sunday he read and spoke in Tongues as usual -- but all of a sudden, Drusilla lost her power of Interpreation -- and Curtonius' message was left uninterpreted; and confusion reigned in Laodicea.

I'm lukewarm on your story.

 

[swordsman1]

Curtonius the Lesser was a believer from Laodicea who spoke in Tongues during the "Overlap Period"; just prior to THE GREAT CESSATION -- these were the Glory Days when a believer had a written New Testament as well as still being able to use the gifts!!

He had quite a following, and would read from the New Testament a few passages, then give a message in Tongues. Usually Drusilla his wife gave the Interpretation, then more reading of the New Testament.

One sunday he read and spoke in Tongues as usual -- but all of a sudden, Drusilla lost her power of Interpreation -- and Curtonius' message was left uninterpreted; and confusion reigned in Laodicea.

Google: No results found for "Curtonius the Lesser".

Another Pentecostal invention like the Augustine quote?