Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

[Saint Steven]

John, the last remaining Apostle wrote Revelation.

The Holy Spirit? Yes, all believers are baptized in the Holy Spirit. But the charismatic gifts were not given to any but those the Apostles laid hands on. And they expired with the Apostles.

The writing date for Revelation is AD 95.
Check out these dates and evidence of the gifts in operation. Especially tongues.

A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says:
"Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished
for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held
rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet
through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly
embraced the true faith with their whole minds."

A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John.
He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear
many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit
speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden
things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."

A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.

A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days,
he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."

A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and
considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid
hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."

Source link

 

[Anto9us]

I don't think ANY of the gifts or offices have 'ceased'.

We don't call people apostles yet some do the work of apostles - missionaries start churches and keep up with their progress - they are not famous people like the Apostle Paul that we know from scripture; yet they do great works.

I know a very humble man who smuggled Bibles into Russia at the height of the Soviet Union's power - he did amazing things ministering to Russian Christians.

Was John Wesley an apostle? He did the things apostles did - supervising other preachers in England and in America until Francis Asbury took over in this country - early Methodism is full of apostles on horseback...

Do Catholics consider their Popes an apostle? Orthodox their patriarchs?

Who says Prophets don't exist anymore?
They are probably RARE -- heck, they were RARE even in the New Testament -- I only know of Agabus and Phillip's four virgin daughters and a few unnamed prophets are mentioned in the New Testament; but face it, Prophets were rare as a two-dollar bill! They were not non-existent like a three-dollar bill, but they were rare.

I sit here safe at my computer in the USA, but elsewhere in the world Christians face great persecution, and they have LEADERS that may include Apostles and Prophets -- at least doing the FUNCTION; obviously it would be hard to find someone who has SEEN THE RISEN LORD -- but Jesus was able to appear to Paul and how do I know He did not appear to others? Apostles are those SENT WITH A COMMISSION, and may include Christians we will never hear of or know about in our online world where the worst that can happen to us is get banned from a message-board.

As Steve says -- you CANNOT PUT GOD IN A BOX -- you cannot cage the Holy Ghost and say "this is what He can and cannot do"; we are just humans - we have no idea what the Holy Ghost is capable of.

 

[Anto9us]

Daniel is written partly in Hebrew, partly in Aramaic - I think some parts we have only in Greek - it is logical to assume that Gabriel spoke to Daniel in one of those languages; it is not logical that he used one of those in communicating with Archangel Michael about the bad Prince of Persia who was interfering with him...

 

[Anto9us]

Dan 10:20
Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
Dan 10:21
But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

This was some angel in the appearance of a man -- looks like angels even READ SCRIPTURE -- I bet they can handle any human language as well as have an angelic language of their own; I may have prayed in it before, I don't know.

 

[Dave L]

The writing date for Revelation is AD 95.
Check out these dates and evidence of the gifts in operation. Especially tongues.

A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says:
"Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished
for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held
rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet
through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly
embraced the true faith with their whole minds."

A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John.
He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear
many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit
speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden
things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."

A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.

A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days,
he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."

A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and
considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid
hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."

Source link

We have many claiming the same bogus gifts today. No hard fast evidence. Notice your examples are all "hearsay". Nothing solid.

 

[swordsman1]

The book of Acts has 5 accounts of people or groups of people receiving the Holy Spirit.
1 - Acts 2:1-4 This instance as mentioned was separate and subsequent to salvation.

Of course Pentecost was subsequent, that was the first time ever in the world that the Spirit was poured out on anyone. So this can hardly be held as a pattern for today. And of course nobody today has tongues of fire hovering above their heads!

2 - Acts 8:14-16 This instance as mentioned was separate and subsequent to salvation.

Yes, but for good reason. This was the first time outside of Judaism that anyone had become Christians and the Spirit was withheld until the apostles arrived for them witness that the hated Samaritans were not second-class citizens but full members of the church.

3 - Acts 9:17 Paul is referred to as brother as he was a Christian at that point. His conversion happened on the Damascus road. Paul is told that he would be filled with the Holy Spirit. Acts 2 uses the same phrase. Paul also states in 1 Cor 14:18 that he spoke in tongues.

Being filled with the Spirit is not the same as being baptized with the Spirit. People can be filled multiple times. Peter was filled at Pentecost, then again when in front of the Sanhedrin (the 2nd time without tongues). Likewise the apostles in Acts 4:31, the deacons in Acts 6:3, Stephen in Acts 7:55, Paul in Acts 13:9, etc. And all without tongues. So this cannot be used as a pattern for today.

4 - Acts 10:44-46 Peter is at Cornelius' house and while he is still preaching the Holy Spirit was received. This is the only time it could be argued that it occurred at conversion. It was mentioned in the scripture subsequent to the salvation message having been preached but this is no guarantee that it was instant upon the peoples acceptance of the message preached.

It clearly says the Holy Spirit was given as they heard the Gospel. So this one can be dismissed. It is the complete opposite to the pattern you are proposing.

5 - Acts 19:4-6 Paul finds some of John's disciples at Ephesus. They believed Paul's preaching, were baptized and had hands laid on them. When the laying on of hands occurred, they received the Holy Spirit. This followed salvation and baptism. You don't baptize unbelievers, so the Holy Spirit is therefore received after conversion.

It doesn't say "Then Paul placed his hands on them..." it says "When Paul placed his hands on them". No chronology is given. So arguably Paul could have laid his hands on them before they were baptized. The impression certainly is that Paul's preaching, their baptism, and the Holy Spirit were all given within only minutes of each other, whichever order they occurred. So at best we must leave a question mark over this one as a legitimate pattern of subsequence.

So only 2 of those examples definitely has the Holy Spirit being received subsequent to salvation. Pentecost can instantly dismissed as a pattern for today, which only leaves Samaria. Are you really going to claim a pattern of subsequence today based on this single unique historical event? If you are then you must also say that the Holy Spirit is only given by an Apostle of Christ laying their hands on you. You can't just cherry pick the parts of the event that correspond to your supposed pattern and ignore the rest.

If new believers today do not receive the Holy Spirit until a subsequent 2nd blessing, as you claim is the pattern from these examples, then the following scriptures are lies:

Romans 8:9 "But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

Eph 1:13 "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit"

Gal 3:2 "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?"

Acts 2:38 "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

And of course 1 Cor 12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body..."​

All the events in Acts where tongues were given where unique once-for-all historical events. Each of them was to authenticate a whole new groups of believers who would otherwise not have be accepted into the church - the Samaritans, the Gentiles, and the disciples of John the Baptist. The apostles had to witness each of these groups having the same initial experience as them before they would accept that group within the church as equal Christians. We never hear of the Spirit falling on an individual in the same manner.

Then there is the established hermeneutical principle that historical narratives are descriptive, not prescriptive. Acts is full of wonderful and mysterious events at a unique time of transition in redemptive history. Just because they occurred then doesn't mean they should be emulated in this day and age.

 

[Dave L]

You're now just waffling like SWORD. OK then, change of game; forget everything you just said and answer the question based upon 'when' it was written. Is Paul addressing three groups of people or not?

And since he obviously IS, explain what Paul is talking about when HE writes to the Charismatic church of Corinth where "all speak in tongues" (which is not a 'hyperbole' or "exaggerated" as even SWORD and many other fundamentals have mislead 'even Charismatics' to believe.)

Paul makes it plain that there were three groups spoken of; one group was the all Charismatic, Corinthian church to whom Paul was writing to. The other CHRISTIAN group was "ungifted" or "unlearned" concerning the charismatic especially tongues, in the context. Since you and SWORD won't admit which group you ARE IN, then tell US ALL just what was different in YOUR OPINION, concerning the difference from Paul's perspective 2000 years ago? Who are these "ungifted, unlearned" CHRISTIANS that Paul is speaking about? And if 'they' are like you say 'already Spirit' baptized, then why is Paul's theology not lining up with your present day POV?

It still remains no Apostles - no charismatic gifts.

 

[Albion]

It was a vision! The vision of heaven etc teaches us truths, but it is not to be taken as a literal description of everything in the afterlife.

 

[Saint Steven]

John, the last remaining Apostle wrote Revelation. ...

Here's what you need to know about the writing dates of the early church, including the NT canon. Just because the book of Revelation was the last to appear in the NT canon doesn't mean it was the last book written in the NT canon. 2 Peter was probably the latest book AD 100-160. Several other books were dated later than Revelation. Including: The Epistle of Jude AD 90-120, 1 and 2 Timothy AD 100-150, Titus AD 100-150, and of course, 2 Peter AD 100-150.

Also worth noting. Many claim that the early writings of the church were written after the NT canon was closed. This is not the case. The early writings, many of which were written in the same time frame as the NT, were the books from which the canonized set were chosen. See dates below.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chronological List of Early Christian Writings
Includes canonical NT works


Passion Narrative, AD 30-60

Lost Sayings Gospel Q, AD 40- 80

1 Thessalonians, AD 50-60

Philippians, AD 50-60

Galatians, AD 50-60

1 Corinthians, AD 50-60

2 Corinthians, AD 50-60

Romans, AD 50-60

Philemon, AD 50-60

Colossians, AD 50- 80

Signs Gospel, AD 50-90

Book of Hebrews, AD 50-95

Didache, AD 50-120

Gospel of Thomas, AD 50-140

Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel, AD

Sophia of Jesus Christ, AD 50-140 50-200

Gospel of Mark, AD 65- 80

Epistle of James, AD 70-100

Egerton Gospel, AD 70-120

Gospel of Peter, AD 70-160

Secret Mark, AD 70-160

Fayyum Fragment, AD 70-200

Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, AD 70-200

Mara Bar Serapion, AD 73-200

2 Thessalonians, AD 80-100

Ephesians, AD 80-100

Gospel of Matthew, AD 80-100

1 Peter, AD 80-110

Epistle of Barnabas, AD 80-120

Gospel of Luke, AD 80-130

Acts of the Apostles, AD 80-130

1 Clement, AD 80-140

Gospel of the Egyptians, AD 80-150

Gospel of the Hebrews, AD 80-150

Christian Sibyllines, AD 80-250

Apocalypse of John, AD 90-95

Gospel of John, AD 90-120

1 John, AD 90-120

2 John, AD 90-120

3 John, AD 90-120

Epistle of Jude, AD 90-120

Flavius Josephus, AD 93

1 Timothy, AD 100-150

2 Timothy, AD 100-150

Titus, AD 100-150

Apocalypse of Peter, AD 100-150

Secret Book of James, AD 100-150

Preaching of Peter, AD 100-150

Gospel of the Ebionites, AD 100-160

Gospel of the Nazoreans, AD 100-160

Shepherd of Hermas, AD 100-160

2 Peter, AD 100-160

Odes of Solomon, AD 100-200

Book of Elchasai, AD 101-220

Ignatius of Antioch, AD 105-115

Polycarp to the Philippians, AD 110-140

Papias, AD 110-140

Oxyrhynchus 840 Gospel, AD 110-160

Traditions of Matthias, AD 110-160

Pliny the Younger, AD 111-112

Suetonius, AD 115

Tacitus, AD 115

Quadratus of Athens, AD 120-130

Apology of Aristides, AD 120-130

Basilides, AD 120-140

Naassene Fragment, AD 120-140

Valentinus, AD 120-160

Apocryphon of John, AD 120-180

Gospel of Mary, AD 120-180

Dialogue of the Savior, AD 120-180

Gospel of the Savior, AD 120-180

2nd Apocalypse of James, AD 120-180

Trimorphic Protennoia, AD 120-180

Marcion, AD 130-140

Aristo of Pella, AD 130-150

Epiphanes On Righteousness, AD 130-160

Ophite Diagrams, AD 130-160

2 Clement, AD 130-160

Gospel of Judas, AD 130-170

Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, AD 130-200

Epistula Apostolorum, AD 140-150

Ptolemy, AD 140-160

Isidore, AD 140-160

Fronto, AD 140-170

Infancy Gospel of James, AD 140-170

Infancy Gospel of Thomas, AD 140-170

Gospel of Truth, AD 140-180

Martyrdom of Polycarp, AD 150-160

Justin Martyr, AD 150-160

Excerpts of Theodotus, AD 150-180

Heracleon, AD 150-180

Ascension of Isaiah, AD 150-200

Acts of Peter, AD 150-200

Acts of John, AD 150-200

Acts of Paul, AD 150-200

Acts of Andrew, AD 150-200

Acts of Peter and the Twelve, AD 150-225

Book of Thomas the Contender, AD 150-225

Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra, AD 150-250

Authoritative Teaching, AD 150-300

Coptic Apocalypse of Paul, AD 150-300

Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth, AD 150-300

Melchizedek, AD 150-300

Acts of Pilate, AD 150-400

Anti-Marcionite Prologues, AD 150-400

Tatian's Address to the Greeks, AD 160-170

Claudius Apollinaris, AD 160-180

Apelles, AD 160-180

Julius Cassianus, AD 160-180

Octavius of Minucius Felix, AD 160-250

Acts of Carpus, AD 161-180

Melito of Sardis, AD 165-175

Hegesippus, AD 165-175

Dionysius of Corinth, AD 165-175

Lucian of Samosata, AD 165-175

Marcus Aurelius, AD 167

Diatessaron, AD 170-175

Dura-Europos Gospel Harmony, AD 170-200

Muratorian Canon, AD 170-200

Treatise on the Resurrection, AD 170-200

Letter of Peter to Philip, AD 170-220

Athenagoras of Athens, AD 175-180

Irenaeus of Lyons, AD 175-185

Rhodon, AD 175-185

Theophilus of Caesarea, AD 175-185

Galen, AD 175-190

Celsus, AD 178

Letter from Vienna and Lyons, AD 178

Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs, AD 180

Theophilus of Antioch, AD 180-185

Acts of Apollonius, AD 180-185

Bardesanes, AD 180-220

Kerygmata Petrou, AD 180-220

Hippolytus of Rome, AD 180-230

1st Apocalypse of James, AD 180-250

Gospel of Philip, AD 180-250

Clement of Alexandria, AD 182-202

Maximus of Jerusalem, AD 185-195

Polycrates of Ephesus, AD 185-195

Talmud, AD 188-217

Victor I, AD 189-199

Pantaenus, AD 190-210

Anonymous Anti-Montanist, AD 193

Inscription of Abercius, AD 193-216

Tertullian, AD 197-220

Serapion of Antioch, AD 200-210

Apollonius, AD 200-210

Caius, AD 200-220

Philostratus, AD 200-220

Acts of Thomas, AD 200-225

Didascalia, AD 200-250

Books of Jeu, AD 200-250

Pistis Sophia, AD 200-300

Coptic Apocalypse of Peter, AD 200-300

Acts of Perpetua and Felicitas, AD 203

Origen, AD 203-250

 

[swordsman1]

The writing date for Revelation is AD 95.
Check out these dates and evidence of the gifts in operation. Especially tongues.

A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says:
"Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished
for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held
rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet
through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly
embraced the true faith with their whole minds."

A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John.
He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear
many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit
speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden
things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."

A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.

A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days,
he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."

A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and
considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid
hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."

Source link

The later Church Fathers said tongues had ceased. Your quotes from Chrysostom and Augustine are invalid (see my previous post). Some guy in his book claiming the early martyrs spoke in tongues is not acceptable proof. What are his sources?

 

[Anto9us]

Why are you focused on "PATTERN"?

Focus on PROMISE, not how it comes, but WHO IT IS TO!

And Acts 2:39 gives that clearly -- with NO PROVISO of

"ooops, time's up! time to withdraw this!"


Luk 24:49
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Act 1:4
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:39
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[Dave L]

Here's what you need to know about the writing dates of the early church, including the NT canon. Just because the book of Revelation was the last to appear in the NT canon doesn't mean it was the last book written in the NT canon. 2 Peter was probably the latest book AD 100-160. Several other books were dated later than Revelation. Including: The Epistle of Jude AD 90-120, 1 and 2 Timothy AD 100-150, Titus AD 100-150, and of course, 2 Peter AD 100-150.

Also worth noting. Many claim that the early writings of the church were written after the NT canon was closed. This is not the case. The early writings, many of which were written in the same time frame as the NT, were the books from which the canonized set were chosen. See dates below.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chronological List of Early Christian Writings
Includes canonical NT works


Passion Narrative, AD 30-60

Lost Sayings Gospel Q, AD 40- 80

1 Thessalonians, AD 50-60

Philippians, AD 50-60

Galatians, AD 50-60

1 Corinthians, AD 50-60

2 Corinthians, AD 50-60

Romans, AD 50-60

Philemon, AD 50-60

Colossians, AD 50- 80

Signs Gospel, AD 50-90

Book of Hebrews, AD 50-95

Didache, AD 50-120

Gospel of Thomas, AD 50-140

Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel, AD

Sophia of Jesus Christ, AD 50-140 50-200

Gospel of Mark, AD 65- 80

Epistle of James, AD 70-100

Egerton Gospel, AD 70-120

Gospel of Peter, AD 70-160

Secret Mark, AD 70-160

Fayyum Fragment, AD 70-200

Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, AD 70-200

Mara Bar Serapion, AD 73-200

2 Thessalonians, AD 80-100

Ephesians, AD 80-100

Gospel of Matthew, AD 80-100

1 Peter, AD 80-110

Epistle of Barnabas, AD 80-120

Gospel of Luke, AD 80-130

Acts of the Apostles, AD 80-130

1 Clement, AD 80-140

Gospel of the Egyptians, AD 80-150

Gospel of the Hebrews, AD 80-150

Christian Sibyllines, AD 80-250

Apocalypse of John, AD 90-95

Gospel of John, AD 90-120

1 John, AD 90-120

2 John, AD 90-120

3 John, AD 90-120

Epistle of Jude, AD 90-120

Flavius Josephus, AD 93

1 Timothy, AD 100-150

2 Timothy, AD 100-150

Titus, AD 100-150

Apocalypse of Peter, AD 100-150

Secret Book of James, AD 100-150

Preaching of Peter, AD 100-150

Gospel of the Ebionites, AD 100-160

Gospel of the Nazoreans, AD 100-160

Shepherd of Hermas, AD 100-160

2 Peter, AD 100-160

Odes of Solomon, AD 100-200

Book of Elchasai, AD 101-220

Ignatius of Antioch, AD 105-115

Polycarp to the Philippians, AD 110-140

Papias, AD 110-140

Oxyrhynchus 840 Gospel, AD 110-160

Traditions of Matthias, AD 110-160

Pliny the Younger, AD 111-112

Suetonius, AD 115

Tacitus, AD 115

Quadratus of Athens, AD 120-130

Apology of Aristides, AD 120-130

Basilides, AD 120-140

Naassene Fragment, AD 120-140

Valentinus, AD 120-160

Apocryphon of John, AD 120-180

Gospel of Mary, AD 120-180

Dialogue of the Savior, AD 120-180

Gospel of the Savior, AD 120-180

2nd Apocalypse of James, AD 120-180

Trimorphic Protennoia, AD 120-180

Marcion, AD 130-140

Aristo of Pella, AD 130-150

Epiphanes On Righteousness, AD 130-160

Ophite Diagrams, AD 130-160

2 Clement, AD 130-160

Gospel of Judas, AD 130-170

Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, AD 130-200

Epistula Apostolorum, AD 140-150

Ptolemy, AD 140-160

Isidore, AD 140-160

Fronto, AD 140-170

Infancy Gospel of James, AD 140-170

Infancy Gospel of Thomas, AD 140-170

Gospel of Truth, AD 140-180

Martyrdom of Polycarp, AD 150-160

Justin Martyr, AD 150-160

Excerpts of Theodotus, AD 150-180

Heracleon, AD 150-180

Ascension of Isaiah, AD 150-200

Acts of Peter, AD 150-200

Acts of John, AD 150-200

Acts of Paul, AD 150-200

Acts of Andrew, AD 150-200

Acts of Peter and the Twelve, AD 150-225

Book of Thomas the Contender, AD 150-225

Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra, AD 150-250

Authoritative Teaching, AD 150-300

Coptic Apocalypse of Paul, AD 150-300

Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth, AD 150-300

Melchizedek, AD 150-300

Acts of Pilate, AD 150-400

Anti-Marcionite Prologues, AD 150-400

Tatian's Address to the Greeks, AD 160-170

Claudius Apollinaris, AD 160-180

Apelles, AD 160-180

Julius Cassianus, AD 160-180

Octavius of Minucius Felix, AD 160-250

Acts of Carpus, AD 161-180

Melito of Sardis, AD 165-175

Hegesippus, AD 165-175

Dionysius of Corinth, AD 165-175

Lucian of Samosata, AD 165-175

Marcus Aurelius, AD 167

Diatessaron, AD 170-175

Dura-Europos Gospel Harmony, AD 170-200

Muratorian Canon, AD 170-200

Treatise on the Resurrection, AD 170-200

Letter of Peter to Philip, AD 170-220

Athenagoras of Athens, AD 175-180

Irenaeus of Lyons, AD 175-185

Rhodon, AD 175-185

Theophilus of Caesarea, AD 175-185

Galen, AD 175-190

Celsus, AD 178

Letter from Vienna and Lyons, AD 178

Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs, AD 180

Theophilus of Antioch, AD 180-185

Acts of Apollonius, AD 180-185

Bardesanes, AD 180-220

Kerygmata Petrou, AD 180-220

Hippolytus of Rome, AD 180-230

1st Apocalypse of James, AD 180-250

Gospel of Philip, AD 180-250

Clement of Alexandria, AD 182-202

Maximus of Jerusalem, AD 185-195

Polycrates of Ephesus, AD 185-195

Talmud, AD 188-217

Victor I, AD 189-199

Pantaenus, AD 190-210

Anonymous Anti-Montanist, AD 193

Inscription of Abercius, AD 193-216

Tertullian, AD 197-220

Serapion of Antioch, AD 200-210

Apollonius, AD 200-210

Caius, AD 200-220

Philostratus, AD 200-220

Acts of Thomas, AD 200-225

Didascalia, AD 200-250

Books of Jeu, AD 200-250

Pistis Sophia, AD 200-300

Coptic Apocalypse of Peter, AD 200-300

Acts of Perpetua and Felicitas, AD 203

Origen, AD 203-250

It doesn't change a thing. If you can show from scripture the Charismatic gifts came from another source besides the two outpourings and the Apostles' hands, you will have something credible.

 

[Saint Steven]

The later Church Fathers said tongues had ceased. Your quotes from Chrysostom and Augustine are invalid (see my previous post). Some guy in his book claiming the early martyrs spoke in tongues is not acceptable proof. What are his sources?

Well, if the early church fathers spoke in tongues then that was after the Apostles died. So much for the theory of Cessationism. POOF!

 

[Anto9us]

Generally, it is a Holy Spirit baptism SUBSEQUENT to conversion -- but the Cornelius household disrupts that 'pattern' -- so WHY SEEK A 'PATTERN'?

And of course nobody today has tongues of fire hovering above their heads!

I had blue flames hovering over me that came through the roof of the car that I was in -- my friends who laid hands on me did not see the blue flames, but I did, in a vision just for me.

My description of it to the two girls alleviated their 'dissapointment' that I did not speak in tongues right away as they expected; I sang in tongues alone that night in my bed, told them the next day that their laying on of hands was not a failure.


Act 2:39
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[Albion]

I think the testimony of a spontaneous experience when the Spirit manifests in gifts is very good evidence that the gifts are in continuation. (have not ceased)

Not at all!

First, it has been shown many times that people imagine emotional reactions to be miracles or supernatural something or other when that is not the case.

Second, the question is not whether tongues are NOW in existence but whether they ceased. Sure, a couple hundred years ago when a lot of new churches and movements were being started--usually with the guiding idea of doing what the Apostolic church had supposedly done before we were divided into all the denominations--some of them wanted to rediscover tongues and the other gifts.

BUT that doesn't mean that they were genuine or that tongues had not previously ceased . And if they ever ceased, that is what cessationism means.

And the Cessationists don't seem to complain when one of their own claims to have heard from God.

That is not a characteristic of cessationist belief. Cessationism means only the recognition that tongues had ceased to be a feature of the church. There is no cessationist church or cessationist ritual. It is simply a term for those who reject the idea that tongues never ceased (presumably meaning that todays version must be a continuation of the tongues spoken of in Scripture).

 

[Saint Steven]

It doesn't change a thing. If you can show from scripture the Charismatic gifts came from another source besides the two outpourings and the Apostles' hands, you will have something credible.

How many times do I have to tell you? Here it is one more time.

From my list below. Ananias of Damascus (not an Apostle) lays hands on Paul (Saul) to receive the Holy Spirit, followed by water baptism. (Acts 9:17-18)

1) Pentecost: Water baptism followed by receiving the "promised Holy Spirit"
2) Samaria: The Apostles were sent to lay hands on the new believers who had ONLY been baptized in water. (Acts 8:14-16)
3) Saul: Ananias of Damascus (not an Apostle) lays hands on Paul (Saul) to receive the Holy Spirit, followed by water baptism. (Acts 9:17-18)
4) Cornelius: The gentiles were filled with the Spirit prior to water baptism. (Acts 10 and 11)
5) Ephesus: The Apostle Paul encounters disciples of John the Baptist. They are water baptized in Jesus' name and Paul lays hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit. (Acts 19:1-7)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There was a third outpouring as well.

Acts 4:31
After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

 

[Anto9us]

Joel 2:28

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Every person's experience is different, and it is a once-in-a-lifetime thing. It was that for all the instances recorded in Acts, as well as the millions of times SINCE.
Do not seek a pattern for the Holy Ghost -- he's wild ya know -- is not going to be tamed by human theology.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not at all!

First, it has been shown many times that people imagine emotional reactions to be miracles or supernatural something or other when that is not the case.

Second, the question is not whether tongues are NOW in existence but whether they ceased. Sure, a couple hundred years ago when a lot of new churches and movements were being started--usually with the guiding idea of doing what the Apostolic church had supposedly done before we were divided into all the denominations--some of them wanted to rediscover tongues and the other gifts.

BUT that doesn't mean that they were genuine or that tongues had not previously ceased . And if they ever ceased, that is what cessationism means.


That is not a characteristic of cessationist belief. Cessationism means only the recognition that tongues had ceased to be a feature of the church. There is no cessationist church or cessationist ritual. It is simply a term for those who reject the idea that tongues never ceased (presumably meaning that todays version must be a continuation of the tongues spoken of in Scripture).

Suit yourself.
If you don't believe it, you don't believe it. I can't help you.

What was the point of 1 Corinthians chapters 12-14 if we don't operate in the gifts? Why did those who assembled the NT canon even include such outmoded and meaningless texts? And what do you make of this? When was this revoked?

1 Corinthians 2:4-5
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power,
5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

 

[Anto9us]

It took until 381 AD for the Holy Ghost to get much attention in PRINT, in the second council that finalized our Nicene Creed...

we believe...

"And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.
In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

Do you confess that you believe in an APOSTOLIC church? Creed says so -- CF.com rules say we believe in Nicene Creed. We are in an apostolic church right now, though some believe it is without apostles, which is kind of incongruent when you think about it.

We acknowledge ONE BAPTISM for the remission of sins, yes, but Hebrews six speaks of baptismS - plural.

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

 

[Anto9us]

Suit yourself.
If you don't believe it, you don't believe it. I can't help you.

lol

It's just our dopaminergic genes and a reaction to stress and a seeking of pleasure, trying to 'get a high' out of the experience, and all the other Cessationist garbage -- it's not really the Holy Ghost, even though the experience matches exactly what happenned several times in Acts -- oh, yes, also it was said we invite demons in -- I wonder which it is - neurotransmitters or evil spirits?