Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

[Anto9us]

I know nothing of "the Augustine quote" or where it is supposed to have come from. I have CONFESSIONS, CITY OF GOD and ON CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE by Augustine, but am not going to look through them for some quote about Tongues.

Curtonius and Drusilla are from my imagination - they lived at a time Cessationists hypothesize about but seldom consider the real-life ramifications of - that is, the MOMENT OF CESSATION coming to people who exercised the gifts before this MYTHICAL MOMENT came...

believers who used to speak in Tongues and all of a sudden could not do that anymore -- for this is a scenario that the Cessationist view might engender

 

[swordsman1]

I know nothing of "the Augustine quote" or where it is supposed to have come from. I have CONFESSIONS, CITY OF GOD and ON CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE by Augustine, but am not going to look through them for some quote about Tongues.

Curtonius and Drusilla are from my imagination - they lived at a time Cessationists hypothesize about but seldom consider the real-life ramifications of - that is, the MOMENT OF CESSATION coming to people who exercised the gifts before this MYTHICAL MOMENT came...

believers who used to speak in Tongues and all of a sudden could not do that anymore -- for this is a scenario that the Cessationist view might engender

You must have a lot of time on your hands.

Looks like this thread will soon be dying a death.

 

[swordsman1]

I know nothing of "the Augustine quote" or where it is supposed to have come from. I have CONFESSIONS, CITY OF GOD and ON CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE by Augustine, but am not going to look through them for some quote about Tongues.

Here's one:

Augustine, The Homilies On John
In the earliest time, “the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed; and they spake with tongues,” which they had not learned, “as the Spirit gave them utterance.” These were the Sign adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to show that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away.

The quote I was referring to is a bogus quote of Augustine doing the rounds in Pentecostal books and websites saying that tongues were still around in his day.

 

[Anto9us]

21 pages is long for a thread anyway

You have to admit that if Cessationism is true - there was a point in time, how gradual or sudden does not matter - when some generation of believers that formerly spoke in tongues, prophesied, and gave Words of Knowledge could do so no longer.

This is all I wanted people to consider - the logical outcome of Cessationism leads to a point in time where something happens that is absolutely silly -- that is, users of these gifts can use them no longer.

Either that or the gifts die with the deaths of each Christian - another waffling point -- I mean, like, WHEN is that?

But if this thread is dying a death, I will post some categories of reaction to tongues among Christians today. And here, for brevity's sake -- TONGUES represents all 3 gifts that will pass away when we see face to face

A. The most use, the most emphasis, is in denominations which feature Tongues as a regular part of their services, like Assembly of God, Pentecostals, etc. Obviously they are PRO TONGUES.

B. Charismatics who have the experience but remain in denominations not particularly known for Tongues; this is where I and many of all denominations land, these individuals are PRO TONGUES.

C. Cessationists -- those who think these gifts EXPIRED at a certain time in early church history. They are ANTI TONGUES, I mean they have a current active doctrine that the 3 gifts have ceased.

D. The BULK OF CHRISTIANITY -- they don't speak in Tongues themselves, they may or may not have even heard much about it, yet they don't have any DOCTRINE AGAINST IT. They know it is done, at that Pentecostal church down the road, but it doesn't affect them. They are NEUTRAL about the issue of tongues.

D is the biggest group -- it would be hard to assign percentages of the other three -- but I think D is bigger than the rest put together.

Those committed to the C group are vocal -- as in starting this thread.

Those from A and B come in as rebuttal to the Cessationists.

No one ever "switches sides" -- nothing changes, the arguments are the same (over the 20 years I have been on message boards and going back 45 years of face to face arguments) -- it is sort of rare to even hear of someone who "used to be charismatic but is so no longer" (though that happens) and it is rare to hear of someone who "used to be a committed cessationist but got baptized in the Holy Ghost and now speaks in Tongues" (but that does happen also).

Nothing has changed.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Where does it say asking for a gift and having sufficient faith to receive it is a necessary requirement for receiving that gift? Did the disciples ask for the gift of tongues and muster up enough faith before they received it? They never even knew such a thing existed! Ditto Cornelius. Ditto John's disciples. The only condition I can see for receiving a gift is that it must be the sovereign will of the Spirit (1 Cor 12:11).

In actual fact, every believer since the Day of Pentecost received the Holy Spirit at conversion. So, any born again believer can manifest the gifts at any time because they are already all resident in him. They don't need to receive something that was already given 2000 years ago at Pentecost. All they need to do is to release their faith to use whatever gift they already have for the situation that confronts them. Do you believe that you received the fullness of the Holy Spirit when you were born again? Then you have received the whole package and the Holy Spirit can manifest His power through you at any time, so that when you are confronted by a sick person needing prayer, you can expect the Holy Spirit in you to heal that person. (Of course if you have the faith to believe that. Wesley's horse had faith to be healed and it got healed as the result of Wesley's prayer, because when it got sick he didn't want to get another horse and train it all over again to enable him to write his journal and his sermons on its back. So he prayed and the horse exercised faith and was healed. I think that you are better than Wesley's horse, so if it believed that healing was for his day, so you can believe that healing is for your day too! )

No they didn't. Even the earliest fathers (c100-200) said tongues was rare, and it became rarer still until the later fathers (c300-400) declared it to have ceased.

Show me a quote. And show me where anyone said that it was God's will that it all ceased, and not the declining state of the Church because of the influx of ex-pagan "nominal" Christians who were deficient in holiness and real commitment to Christ.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Here's one:

Augustine, The Homilies On John
In the earliest time, “the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed; and they spake with tongues,” which they had not learned, “as the Spirit gave them utterance.” These were the Sign adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to show that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away.

The quote I was referring to is a bogus quote of Augustine doing the rounds in Pentecostal books and websites saying that tongues were still around in his day.

Augustine said that earlier in his ministry, but later, because of the reality that the gifts had not passed away among his churches, he had to change his views and accept that tongues and healing were still evident. He tried to change his earlier views with the Roman leaders, but they refused to accept them and kept to his earlier views and that is why the Church taught that the supernatural gifts had passed away and used Augustines earlier (and mistaken) views to support it.

 

[Saint Steven]

In actual fact, every believer since the Day of Pentecost received the Holy Spirit at conversion. So, any born again believer can manifest the gifts at any time because they are already all resident in him. ...

Unbelief is a deterrent.

Matthew 13:58
And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

 

[swordsman1]

Augustine said that earlier in his ministry, but later, because of the reality that the gifts had not passed away among his churches, he had to change his views and accept that tongues and healing were still evident. He tried to change his earlier views with the Roman leaders, but they refused to accept them and kept to his earlier views and that is why the Church taught that the supernatural gifts had passed away and used Augustines earlier (and mistaken) views to support it.

Please supply the quote for that, and the work of Augustine in which it appears.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

A. The most use, the most emphasis, is in denominations which feature Tongues as a regular part of their services, like Assembly of God, Pentecostals, etc. Obviously they are PRO TONGUES.

B. Charismatics who have the experience but remain in denominations not particularly known for Tongues; this is where I and many of all denominations land, these individuals are PRO TONGUES.

C. Cessationists -- those who think these gifts EXPIRED at a certain time in early church history. They are ANTI TONGUES, I mean they have a current active doctrine that the 3 gifts have ceased.

D. The BULK OF CHRISTIANITY -- they don't speak in Tongues themselves, they may or may not have even heard much about it, yet they don't have any DOCTRINE AGAINST IT. They know it is done, at that Pentecostal church down the road, but it doesn't affect them. They are NEUTRAL about the issue of tongues.

D is the biggest group -- it would be hard to assign percentages of the other three -- but I think D is bigger than the rest put together.

I'm neither a Cessationist nor a Charismatic (though I've attended both types of church groups before.) I'm not even in group D as I have given interpretation for tongues and I have heard legitimate tongues given with interpretation. (I've also seen many 'fake' uses of tongues where people were just babbling or using glossolalia as I listed earlier in this too-long thread.) I've spoken in tongues a few times in personal prayer, but I only tend to find it edifying if I am very emotional and can't find the words. Tongues can circumvent that as I speak the words and -then- understand what I am saying vs. having to formulate what I want to say first. 99.9%+ of the time, though, I pray in English.

I'm not 'neutral' on tongues - I know it is a gift the Holy Spirit still gives today *as He wills.* It seems to be more common for missionaries doing field work with unreached people groups as a sign to convict unbelievers. I don't think it happens frequently in countries like the U.S. because a) most people have heard the gospel already b) most unbelievers will not be shocked or awed by tongues, just demand it be 'scientifically proven, c) many church groups think they are using tongues when they are really just engaging in common glossolalia, so they aren't actually seeking after the real gift of tongues or using it in their churches and d) many church groups discourage tongues or ban them entirely, so even people with the gifting cannot use it or hide it.

I fall back on I Cor 12-14 for the most comprehensive study of tongues that scripture gives. Tongues can be edifying when given in an orderly way with interpretation. Tongues should not be forbidden - church groups that do so are artificially limiting the Spirit, placing their interpretation of the topic as having more authority than the Spirit to dole out gifts as He is pleased to aportion. Church groups that encourage everyone to speak in tongues also face a problem as they, like the Corinthians, are over-emphasizing tongues and not ignoring the scripture that says not everyone speaks in tongues. In such groups the overall edification of the church can be sacrificed as individuals pursue the gifts they desire, but not in such a way where the body is actually served by those gifts. These church groups are at high risk of encouraging the spread of glossolalia and mistaking that for tongues, as well, which edifies no one.

But if a church group allows the Spirit to gift, gives opportunity for churchgoers to use their gift, and does things in an "orderly" fashion these extremes can be avoided.

 

[Hillsage]

In actual fact, every believer since the Day of Pentecost received the Holy Spirit at conversion. So, any born again believer can manifest the gifts at any time because they are already all resident in him.

Since this is a belief I've spoken against quite a bit, would you be interested in discussing it? If, for no other reason, than to just prove that this thread isn't dying....only the "ungifted" and "unlearned" are.

Let me also say, I'm not willing to take on every one here at the same time. I fully know that 'mine' is the minority view, but I don't have the time or interest of keeping up with more than one. And, from what I've seen, you should be more than qualified to present yours and their side quite adequately.

Lastly, bite size posts are also better than some massive diatribe or copy/cut/paste that has so many bunny trails it isn't even worth starting down the trail.

So Oscarr, what say? Got a verse or two you'd like me to address?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Since this is a belief I've spoken against quite a bit, would you be interested in discussing it? If, for no other reason, than to just prove that this thread isn't dying....only the "ungifted" and "unlearned" are.

Let me also say, I'm not willing to take on every one here at the same time. I fully know that 'mine' is the minority view, but I don't have the time or interest of keeping up with more than one. And, from what I've seen, you should be more than qualified to present yours and their side quite adequately.

Lastly, bite size posts are also better than some massive diatribe or copy/cut/paste that has so many bunny trails it isn't even worth starting down the trail.

So Oscarr, what say? Got a verse or two you'd like me to address?

Because of the effectiveness of Gospel preaching with signs and wonders at the time, many pagans were coming into the church to hear the gospel and to receive Christ. So it was important that what was said in these public meetings was in a language that they understood, rather than in tongues which would have sounded like nonsense to them. If they were born again Christians, they would have been recent believers who needed a New Christians programme to teach them the basics of Christianity and church life, and the way the Holy Spirit moved in people. Until they had learned these things they would have been "unlearned", and until they entered into the giftings of the Spirit they would have been "ungifted". These are not put-down statements, but descriptions of those who needed more teaching to integrate them into the full life of the Church. This is why our churches that have a steady influx of new converts need a New Christians programme to fully integrate them into the life of the church.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Please supply the quote for that, and the work of Augustine in which it appears.

You can access Google? Great!

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Since this is a belief I've spoken against quite a bit, would you be interested in discussing it? If, for no other reason, than to just prove that this thread isn't dying....only the "ungifted" and "unlearned" are.

Let me also say, I'm not willing to take on every one here at the same time. I fully know that 'mine' is the minority view, but I don't have the time or interest of keeping up with more than one. And, from what I've seen, you should be more than qualified to present yours and their side quite adequately.

Lastly, bite size posts are also better than some massive diatribe or copy/cut/paste that has so many bunny trails it isn't even worth starting down the trail.

So Oscarr, what say? Got a verse or two you'd like me to address?

While many early believers (not just at Pentecost) received the Holy Spirit shortly after they believed and not at the same time, as the Holy Spirit was still being poured out in fulfillment of prophecy, if we are speaking of Christians *today* we receive the Holy Spirit when we believe.

"I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh?…" Gal 3:21

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having also believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. Eph 1:13-14

"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." Rom 8:9-17

If the Spirit is not in us, we do not belong to Christ.

"For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough" II Cor 11:2

"Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind." Phil 2:1-2

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast...Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth...remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ....He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit." Eph 2:8-22

Pretty clear - we believe, we get access to the Father by the Holy Spirit!

"For we were all baptized in one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free--and we were all made to drink of one Spirit." I Cor 12:13

Are there two bodies of Christ - one without the Spirit and one with? No.

"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other." Gal 5:16-26

Those who belong to Jesus have the Spirit so they can be led by the Spirit, crucify the deeds of the flesh, and not be under the law. There aren't Christians who are somehow under the law still and unable to grow in the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Unbelief is a deterrent.

Matthew 13:58
And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

They weren't doubting that he was doing miracles or could do miracles - they were amazed by His 'miraculous powers.' What they doubted was that He was the Messiah. That is, no matter how many miracles He did it wasn't going to sway them that He was the genuine Messiah because they'd grown up knowing Him as the son of Mary and Joseph. Matt 13:53-58

How does that relate to Christians who DO believe Jesus is the Messiah in their use of spiritual gifts or not? Christians do not need further miracles to sway us - we already have faith.

Now, Christians might not use their gifts for *other* reasons. Perhaps the church group we go to doesn't allow a gift to be used (e.g. cessationist churches,) or gives no opportunity for someone to use their gift set or encourages serving in specific areas but not others (e.g. demanding all women serve in either nursery care, greet team, or hospitality.) Or, we personally might not 'like' the gifts we were given and avoid using them. We might be afraid of the responsibility we might face if practicing our gift. We might not know our gift set. We might be pursuing other gifts rather than nurturing our current gifts. Perhaps we don't think a certain gift exists and so ignore any signs of it as coincidence. And so on and so forth.

But lack of faith in the Messiah is not a reason a Christian, who has faith in the Messiah, wouldn't be using their gifts.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Unbelief is a deterrent.

Matthew 13:58
And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

The problem is that most Church historians, ministers, pastors and commentators are teaching that the gifts passed away either when the last Apostle died, or when the Canon of the New Testament was established. Those words have had negative power on many good believers and they have based their faith on them, preventing them from having the confidence to enter into the supernatural gifts. Quite understandable. Yet these churches are trying to put together plans and programmes to stop the decline and to attract more members and there is nothing at all wrong with what they are trying to do. But in most cases they are failing, and they are asking God why.

Yet the churches that are ignoring all the negative words that the gifts have ceased, and are embracing the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, are growing, and in some areas, at a phenomenal rate, with hundreds of new converts to Christ flowing into their churches. The comparison is inescapable. One has to consider what these churches are doing that the other churches are not. It is too simplistic to say that the growing churches are preaching false doctrine. False doctrine does not produce converts for Christ who integrate themselves into church life and become stable long-standing church members. And it also doesn't explain the exodus of good, long-standing members of declining churches relocating to full-gospel churches. These people are relocating of their own free will and are not being poached, because they see something more of Christ in the growing churches than their own.

 

[Anto9us]

Two hours ago I took a short walk from my apartment -- heard a huge crash -- looked up to see a car UPSIDE DOWN - a one-car accident, it hit a fifty-foot metal lightpole and took it off at the base -- I was watching from across four lanes (access rd, hwy one way, hwy other way, access rd where the wreck was) I prayed quickly in spirit and quickly in English as I dialed 911; it had already been reported, they said we got people on the way and got me off the phone quick

I didnt and still don't know if people were killed or not - this was still broad daylight and many people gathered across the hwy, milling about an upside down car - that car flipped completely, guys were carrying the 50 foot pole out of the way

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

While many early believers (not just at Pentecost) received the Holy Spirit shortly after they believed and not at the same time, as the Holy Spirit was still being poured out in fulfillment of prophecy, if we are speaking of Christians *today* we receive the Holy Spirit when we believe.

If the Spirit is not in us, we do not belong to Christ.

Some have interpreted this as those who don't speak in tongues do not belong to Christ. I don't believe that. The Spirit entering into us when we receive Christ and are born again supports the truth of the above statement. We receive Christ and the Spirit at the same time. If we have not received the Spirit, it means that we have not received Christ as Saviour. So why don't we see the evidence of it in people? Because they need to allow the Holy Spirit to flow out of them with the ministries, gifts, and the fruit. If we see a person turning away from the works of the flesh, and starts to show love joy peace gentleness faithfulness kindness patience self control and goodness, then we know the Spirit is in them and they are truly born again. But there is more for them because they then work from that character foundation into ministry and gifting, and that is part of their developing sanctification. Justification comes along with the fruit of the Spirit, growth in sanctification comes with the ministries and the gifts. Therefore, receiving tongues and prophecy although part of the outflowing of the Spirit, come through sanctification and not as evidence of justification. The fruit of the Spirit is evidence of justification.

 

[Anto9us]

We Methodists are a long way from John Wesley these days - some may not have the faith even his horse had, I dunno. A split of some kind seems likely to occur based on actions that will happen in the spring. There is a sense of unreality about my neighborhood church being even a part of the mess, but we are simply by being in the denomination. We have no gays that I KNOW OF, we have no black people, we barely have any YOUNG people, we have a lady pastor whose husband is a retired Methodist minister, and she is an xpert in Hebrew.

I am committed to Wesleyan/Arminian theology -- not the UMC corporation -- options are Nazarene (boy you talk about a GROWING onFire church in town) and Assembly of God, I know of no straight Wesleyan churches, then there is a General Baptist church across the street from the church where I grew up where Roger Olson is, a top Arminian author whose blog i go to, he being a professor at Truett Seminary here at Baylor University.

I like my church as it is - but something is coming down the pipe for the denomination - and I don't think John and Charles Wesley would be too thrilled...

ok, back to Cessationism vs Continuationism

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

The problem is that most Church historians, ministers, pastors and commentators are teaching that the gifts passed away either when the last Apostle died, or when the Canon of the New Testament was established. Those words have had negative power on many good believers and they have based their faith on them, preventing them from having the confidence to enter into the supernatural gifts. Quite understandable. Yet these churches are trying to put together plans and programmes to stop the decline and to attract more members and there is nothing at all wrong with what they are trying to do. But in most cases they are failing, and they are asking God why.

Yet the churches that are ignoring all the negative words that the gifts have ceased, and are embracing the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, are growing, and in some areas, at a phenomenal rate, with hundreds of new converts to Christ flowing into their churches. The comparison is inescapable. One has to consider what these churches are doing that the other churches are not. It is too simplistic to say that the growing churches are preaching false doctrine. False doctrine does not produce converts for Christ who integrate themselves into church life and become stable long-standing church members. And it also doesn't explain the exodus of good, long-standing members of declining churches relocating to full-gospel churches. These people are relocating of their own free will and are not being poached, because they see something more of Christ in the growing churches than their own.

'Faith' a specific spiritual gift might work or exist is not the same thing as faith in the Messiah (which your support verse was about.) And a person not believing a gift exists wouldn't act as a barrier to the Spirit giving that gift - though it might affect the person's willingness to practice it.

On growth though - numbers alone do not prove conversion. I know and have attended many church groups who had huge numbers and experienced growth explosions for various reasons - only to have the groups later break apart and many of the 'Christians' stop going to church altogether, as they had no real understanding of the gospel but were there for the entertainment. The biggest mega-church in my area just broke up a few years ago, and only a small percentage of its many members have found new homes in other church groups.

My family even went to one church group that was a gospel-teaching church until they got new leadership. The new pastor was obsessed with 'being slain in the Spirit' and other experiences. The gospel was no longer taught - but praying that 'the Spirit' would come fill the place with signs and wonders was. Church growth exploded for a time - everyone wanted to join in on the 'signs' that were happening - the rolling on the floor, laughing, 'tongues,' etc. Eventually a few people in the church realized that what was never being taught was Jesus and the cross, or repentance from sin, etc. Even the references to the 'spirit' were quite vague - not the Spirit of God or Christ, just endless chants of 'Spirit fill me.' There was lots of spectacle but no edification.
Needless to say an exodus slowly began in the other direction where Christians seeking the word of God and genuine spiritual growth left. But many seeking the euphoric experience stayed.

Which isn't to say that is typical of all charismatic churches. But it is a danger. Is a church group honestly seeking for everyone to use their spiritual gifts in a productive and edifying way? Or is a church group over-emphasizing the emotional and experiential and not testing things with the word?

I agree that Cessationist churches are a problem - it's like shooting oneself in the foot or trying to get things done with tied hands and starving oneself. They only allow part of the gifts to be used (and often have restrictions on how other gifts can be used to) and so it is not a fully functional church.

But of the many semi-charismatic and charismatic churches I have gone to, there has been equal disability. Certain gifts are 'prioritized' (Even to the point where many members think they have a gift but don't, such as thinking they speak in tongues but really just using common glossolalia) and other gifts are laid by the wayside. There are often deficits in knowledge and discernment, for example. And none of these churches I have visited or attended Bible studies at actually used gifts like healing or tongues or prophecy properly! Admittedly 4-5 churches isn't a huge sampling, but what are the odds that *none* of them would use the gifts correctly - allowing people to prophesy when they had been proven wrong before; allowing tongues without interpretation or everyone just to babble at the same time; misunderstanding healing to mean everyone who walks through their doors must be grabbed and 'healed' of any physical ailments regardless of the spiritual state the person was in; thinking prophesy or words of knowledge would just come if they closed their eyes and spoke whatever random image was in their head; mistaking euphoria for spiritual growth; etc.

Both extremes are not healthy for churches. This is why scripture uses the terms 'edify' and 'order' when speaking of the gifts. It's not about how flashy they are or how many a church group has operating, but how much strength the gifts give the church group. A structure can collapse because it is too sparse and doesn't have enough support, but it *also* can collapse from having too many unnecessary pieces that were added in without following the blueprints.

 

[Hillsage]

While many early believers (not just at Pentecost) received the Holy Spirit shortly after they believed and not at the same time, as the Holy Spirit was still being poured out in fulfillment of prophecy, if we are speaking of Christians *today* we receive the Holy Spirit when we believe.

Since Oscarr didn't seem to get, or follow, the direction I was asking for, but you 'kinda' did, I am more than willing to pursue this subject with you. BUT first, before I would do so, I have a question to ask of you. Was it you who complained to moderators about me on our last thread together, which resulted in the moderating team giving me a warning, based upon 'Flaming and Goading'?