Speak lovingly of Mary

[Philothei]

I'm not arguing AGAINST any position regarding how often Mary had sex.
Or for.
YOU ARE.


AGAIN, there are only two denominations on the planet with a position on this.
ANY position.
One of them is yours.

You are not.... You are arguing whether she was an Ever virgin... We stated why we believe she is and you repeatetly argue "how" and alsk us to give proof which we did...

Now you are saying you did not... Okay then since YOU did not there is no point to discuss antything further. I stated my position whoever believes it ...that is fine with me...whoever does not it is okay with me too.

And I am sure when we all go to heaven (God willing) we will meet her and YOU can ask her since YOU are the one who questions her EV. She needs no support from me or my Church....

The OO beleive it too...and so some Proterstant Churches .... I guess you will see for yourself then

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You did say it is a rumour...did you? Thus you do not believe it cause there was no proof...

This isn't serious enough to go into a court of law is it?

Daniel 7:9 Perceiving I became till that thrones they were cast and ancient of days he sits, clothing of him as snow pale, and hair of head of him as wool, immaculate, throne of him fiery, that of flame, wheels of him, burning fire.
10 A river that of fire going out and streaming from before him. Thousand thousands they are mininstering him, and ten thousand/myriad ten thousands/myriads before him they are set up. The judge he sits and scrolls they are opened.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

You did say it is a rumour...did you? Thus you do not believe it cause there was no proof...

I have NEVER remotely indicated that the view is false.
I have expressly stated that it IS possible and it is NOT unbiblical. Many times.

A "rumor" is a story or report for which there is no substantiation.
The RCC Catechism states that it is a SIN to spread such a story or report.
It stresses that there must be substantiation for it.
NOT that those spreading it say it is true.
NOT that the story/report is believed by those spreading it.
NOT that the story/report is popularly held.
The singular issue is that it is substantiated as true.
THIS IS NOT MY POSITION (necessarily) IT IS THE RCC'S POSITION
(Any "issues" with it should be taken to the RCC, not me)
Thus, what I ASKED (and a question is not dogma!), is "where is the required substantiation that means this is NOT a "rumor?"
That's one of 3 questions I've asked about this dogma.
So far, I've gotten a lot of attacks, some nasty PM's, a lot of busywork for the Staff, a lot of agreeing with me that it is possible and not unbiblical, a lot of "yes, those spreading it say it is true" but not much discussion about the CATHOLIC CHURCH'S point (NOT MINE) about substantiation.
I raise it because the CATHOLIC CHURCH (not me) says that to spread something that is NOT substantiated is to SIN against them.
"SIN" is the word the RCC Catechism uses - NOT ME.
IMHO, to sin against someone would not be distinctively LOVING toward them, but no one yet seems to agree with me on that.
And being LOVING toward Mary is the issue of this thread.
Is THIS story/report being spread about Mary distinctively LOVING toward her.
That concerns me more than most understand, I realize, because I DO love Mary - more than my own mother.
And I care about what is said about her and if it's true
And I care about things that are SO filled with potential hurt.

I have raise 3 questions. All because I love, adore, revere Her. All because I think love for someone involves respecting them. And what is said about them.




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[CaliforniaJosiah]

You are arguing whether she was an Ever virgin... I stated my position whoever believes it ...that is fine with me...whoever does not it is okay with me too.

AGAIN (I wonder how many times I'll need to post this), I'm arguing NOTHING about how often she had sex. I HAVE NO POSITION ON THIS. Not a dogma, not a doctrine, not even a very falible opinion off the top of my head. None. Of the 30,000 denominations Catholics insist exist, only two have a position on this. Yours is one of them.

IF it's DOGMA (the highest level of certainty and importance, all the world must know this, to deny such is to be a heretic and one's salvation is thereby in question) or if it's DOCTRINE (however the EO understands such - I don't know - ONCE AGAIN, my questions may be directed only to the RCC), then you MUST have something to support it. To the appropriate level. In a manner you accept as valid as when another uses it.

And I am sure when we all go to heaven (God willing) we will meet her and YOU can ask her since YOU are the one who questions her EV. I guess you will see for yourself then

.... I have no intentions of asking her how often she had sex. I have no intentions of asking you, either.






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[Philothei]

Brrrr..... I got scared.... but ....again I am not RC...talking to the wrong person.

I have NEVER remotely indicated that the view is false.
I have expressly stated that it IS possible and it is NOT unbiblical. Many times.

..... I have to check you on that later....


If you cannot subastantiate either way ....does this give you the right to "refute" either way and teach people to sit on the fence? Is that theologically acceptable and if it is what is the benefit of those who belong to either Tradition? Does Christ want us to "fight agaisnt rumors?" I have not seen any commandment to that.....

 

[Philothei]

.... I have no intentions of asking her how often she had sex. I have no intentions of asking you, either.

Guess what we agree .....lol......................... Neither would I because I already know and i am not the nosy type ...........................Whatever needful is already revealed to me in the Bible and the Apostolic Tradition

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

does this give you the right to "refute" either way and teach people to sit on the fence?

1. I didn't and don't "refute" ANY position on how often Mary had sex. I'll try as many times as it takes: I HAVE NO POSITION ON HOW OFTEN MARY AND JOSEPH HAD SEX - IF AT ALL. Any part of that that is unclear? Of the 30,000 denominations Catholics insist exist 29,998 have no position on this. No dogma. No doctrine. No official teaching. Of the 30,000 that Catholics insist exist, 2 of them have an official and very clear teaching: Mary had no sex ever.

2. I don't teach anyone to sit anywhere regarding how often Mary had sex (if at all). The RCC and EO do. In fact, in the RCC, if one denys that Mary had no sex EVER, they are a heretic and their salvation is thereby in question. I think you have the "sit here" demands reversed.

Is that theologically acceptable and if it is what is the benefit of those who belong to either Tradition? Does Christ want us to "fight agaisnt rumors?" I have not seen any commandment to that.....

1. Yes, I think telling the truth matters to Christ, perhaps especially where the supremely private, extremely intimate aspects of His Mother's loving sharings with Her husband are involved. If it matters to you what is dogmatically said about your sex life, I suspect Mary cares. And if your son cares what is said about you, I suspect Her Son does, too. But you may disagree there.


2. We aren't talking about "pious opinions." We're talking about dogma (RCC) and doctrine (EO).





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[Philothei]

1. Yes, I think telling the truth matters to Christ, perhaps especially where the supremely private, extremely intimate aspects of His Mother's loving sharings with Her husband are involved. If it matters to you what is dogmatically said about your sex life, I suspect Mary cares. And if your son cares what is said about you, I suspect Her Son does, too. But you may disagree there.

Okay then proove it that Christ does care either way... Suspicion is not proof.... I want Christ's words on this.....from the Bible... itself that Christ would actually send people to the other side if they believe that she is EV....it is mere speculation... on your part and the ball is in your court.....to prove it..

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Neither would I

Is the ONLY reason you wouldn't ask Her is because your denomination has said?

Do you agree with me that it would be inappropriate for me to ask you how often you have sex with your husband, if at all? Your denomination has no doctrine there.




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[Thekla]

Do you agree with me that it would be inappropriate for me to ask you how often you have sex with your husband, if at all? Your denomination has no doctrine there.

.

Is that why you illustrate your concerns about ever-virginity and frequency, etc of sex, using the names of posters in this forum - because your denomination has no dogma on the matter ?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

it is mere speculation...

Let me try again...
I have no dogma, doctrine, pious opinion, personal perspective, theory, or speculation about how often Mary had sex - if at all. What part of this is entirely and completely dumbfounding you? I'd be glad to try to explain if I knew what aspect of this has been unclear for over 190 pages of posts?


YOU are the one with the doctrine.
The "ball" is in YOUR court.
YOU are the one insisting on how often Mary had sex with her husband.
So YOU must be convinced that Mary is honored to have this information spread to all the world (including children) for to do so is "distinctively loving" toward Her.
If SHE is honored by all knowing this to the highest level of importance and so is Her Son, I suspect you would feel the same way and would be honored to the highest level if all knew how often you have sex with your husband, and so would your son.
In any case, if you are spreading it, the issue is yours.
The responsibility for what you say about Her is also yours.







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[LittleLambofJesus]

Let me try again...
I have no dogma, doctrine, pious opinion, personal perspective, theory, or speculation about how often Mary had sex - if at all. What part of this is entirely and completely dumbfounding you? I'd be glad to try to explain if I knew what aspect of this has been unclear for over 190 pages of posts?

And again, and again, and again.

 

[Philothei]

Is the ONLY reason you wouldn't ask Her is because your denomination has said?

Do you agree with me that it would be inappropriate for me to ask you how often you have sex with your husband, if at all? Your denomination has no doctrine there.




.

No, but I thought you said now that you do not argue either way....I guess you do support the opposite view...or you would not ask me that....


Second it is a straw man and you know it. My life has no comparison to the incarnation as I am not Mary....

just in case......anyone is wondering.....

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute, then attributes that position to the opponent. For example, someone might deliberately overstate the opponent's position.[1] While a straw man argument may work as a rhetorical technique—and succeed in persuading people—it carries little or no real evidential weight, since the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2]
Its name is derived from the practice of using straw men in combat training. In such training, a scarecrow is made in the image of the enemy with the single intent of attacking it.[citation needed] Such a target is, naturally, immobile and does not fight back, and is not as realistic to test skill against compared to a live and armed opponent. It is occasionally called a straw dog fallacy, scarecrow argument, or wooden dummy argument.[citation needed] In the UK, it is sometimes called Aunt Sally, with reference to a traditional fairground game.

 

[Philothei]

CJ where Christ says we are sinning believing in rumors?

Where Christ says that what you do is good and we should go about telling people about rumors about Mary??? YOU cannot answer because Christ does not tell us what to believe about his mother either way..... So why YOU care what others believe about His mother? You did not answer my post BTW.... obviously you CANNOT answer since there is no such thing in the Bible thus your accusation about RC and EO and OO are invalid and phony.....

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

CJ where Christ says we are sinning believing in rumors?

What I posted is the the CATHOLIC CHURCH states that it is a SIN to spread a story or report about someone that is not substantiated. It's not my point, it's the RCC's.

I don't know the EO's position on this. I've asked a few in our discussions on this but none has responded. Let's say there's a story/report that senators Obama and Clinton have a "love child" together, the RCC's position is that it would be sinful to spread that around unless we substantiated it as true. My mom (not a Catholic) used to tell me: "Before you repeat something about someone, ask: is it kind and is it true?" Perhaps t he RCC embraces a similar value. I don't know about the EO; perhaps the EO insists that it IS "distinctively loving" to spread stories about people as long as the one spreading it thinks it's true.

Christ does not tell us what to believe about his mother either way.....

No He doesn't, kinda my point.
But two denominations (and ONLY two) do: The CC and EO.
About how often she had sex with her husband (or not).

So why YOU care what others believe about His mother?

1. Love involves respect, including for truth about them.

2. She's my Mother, too. I would care if you insisted as the highest level of importance for all the world (including little kids) to know that my mother has sex 2.0 times per week on average with her husband and always in the "missionary position." I'd care BECAUSE I love and respect her. I'd want to know WHY you regard THIS issue a matter of highest importance for all the world to know and if any denies such they are a heretic and their salvation is thereby in question, I'd want to know how you dogmatically know this (I lived at home for 16 years and I don't know how often they have sex - or how) because truth matters vis-a-vis one we love, and I'd likely like to know if you have expressed permission from my mom to spread this story/report even if you knew it to be true. Wait a minute - those are the 3 issues I've been asking questions about for over 190 pages of posts! Ah, but then I love Mary far more than I love my earthly mother, thus I care what is said about her sex life much more.







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[Thekla]

YOU are the one insisting on how often Mary had sex with her husband.

Absent any firm Biblical evidence that they married, your statement begs amendment.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Absent any firm Biblical evidence that they married, your statement begs amendment.

Hmm. I decided to look at the greek in this and hard to tell by this whether they were already married or not. Never really looked at this close.

Matt 1:20 These yet of him pondering behold! a messenger of Lord according to trance appeared to him saying "Joseph, son of David no be being afraid to be beside receiving Mariam the woman/wife/gunaika <1135> of thee, for the in her being generated out of a spirit is holy".

Textus Rec.) Matthew 1:20 tauta de autou enqumhqentoV idou aggeloV kuriou kat onar efanh autw legwn iwshf uioV dauid mh fobhqhV paralabein mariam thn gunaika sou to gar en auth gennhqen ek pneumatoV estin agiou

[NKJV] Matthew 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Philothei]

1. Love involves respect, including for truth about them.

you are judging your brother christians accordin to your individual standards is not a 'theological" reason why we should not believe but a mere opinion CJ....
In the Bible it does not state...."Christ:'do not believe in rumors about my siblings, parents and family... such as the Ever virginity of my Mother....or you are not saved and I am insulted by it so is my Father too..." If we had a statement of such a declaration then we would all believe that he meant it and it was all important issue here...

.....But He did not so your "interest" about how loving or not loving we are to His Mother is void of any truth it is at best an opinion on what YOU think WE the rest of us living human beings who are in this forum and have in contact with your "staw man" argumnent must do...

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Absent any firm Biblical evidence that they married, your statement begs amendment.

I'll make the statement simpler:
YOU are the one insisting on how often Mary had sex, or not.




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[Philothei]

YOU are the one with the doctrine.
The "ball" is in YOUR court.
YOU are the one insisting on how often Mary had sex with her husband.
So YOU must be convinced that Mary is honored to have this information spread to all the world (including children) for to do so is "distinctively loving" toward Her.
If SHE is honored by all knowing this to the highest level of importance and so is Her Son, I suspect you would feel the same way and would be honored to the highest level if all knew how often you have sex with your husband, and so would your son.
In any case, if you are spreading it, the issue is yours.
The responsibility for what you say about Her is also yours.

2. She's my Mother, too. I would care if you insisted as the highest level of importance for all the world (including little kids) to know that my mother has sex 2.0 times per week on average with her husband and always in the "missionary position." I'd care BECAUSE I love and respect her. I'd want to know WHY you regard THIS issue a matter of highest importance for all the world to know and if any denies such they are a heretic and their salvation is thereby in question, I'd want to know how you dogmatically know this (I lived at home for 16 years and I don't know how often they have sex - or how) because truth matters vis-a-vis one we love, and I'd likely like to know if you have expressed permission from my mom to spread this story/report even if you knew it to be true. Wait a minute - those are the 3 issues I've been asking questions about for over 190 pages of posts! Ah, but then I love Mary far more than I love my earthly mother, thus I care what is said about her sex life much more.

staw man both cases as you apply humanistic standards to divine matters ... and as I said before I will not answer to straw men fallacies.... You can go though on and on no problemo with me ....Actually I start to find them amussing you take the time to write them over and over.....lol.....If this exchange is entertaining to you then by all means....