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Speak lovingly of Mary
- Thread starter WarriorAngel
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that sounds like a conspiracy theory...... I do not believe that is what Christ refered to. Rather He was talking about "things" that would have provoked the Jews to capture him "earlier" than when the time had come...thus he kept things secret.... The Gospel has no secrets and it is open to all.....
The passage is perfect example of Christ 'establishing" a new covenant and a new standard with his incarnation.... Welcome BTW.
Thank you for the welcome Philothei ,
I agree the things are being revealed to us now , by the testimony
of Jesus Christ wwhich is the Spirit of Prophecy
I just was referring to these scriptures dear , no conspiracy Theory for me ...
Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly,
to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Rom 16:25¶Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,
and the preaching of Jesus Christ,
according to the revelation of the mystery,
which was kept secret since the world began,
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets,
according to the commandment of the everlasting God,
made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Greek for G3466 mystery
μυστήριον Transliteration
mystērion
Pronunciation
mü-stā'-rē-on (Key)
Part of Speech
neuter noun
Root Word (Etymology)
from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth)
TDNT Reference
Vines
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) hidden thing, secret, mystery
a) generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals
b) a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding
c) a hidden purpose or counsel
1) secret will
a) of men
b) of God: the secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, which are hidden from ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godly
2) in rabbinic writings, it denotes the mystic or hidden sense
a) of an OT saying
b) of an image or form seen in a vision
c) of a dream
GOD BLESS YOU .. c
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Philothei -
If we love someone, truth about them and respect for them matters.
Since I love and adore Mary far more than my own mother, I will continue my respect. And I will continue to ask my questions. I have no reason to believe you will ever address them (you've been ignoring them for over 190 pages of posts) but instead will choose to attack me, attempt to divert the issue from what the Dogma/doctrine teaches, and try to "turn the tables" to those who say nothing about Her sex life. Truth about and respect for someone may not be an issue for the EO - you've never answered my question if it's okay to spread rumors about people as long as you think it true, but I think it IS a concern for Catholics since the RCC says it's a SIN (it's word, not mine) to spread a story/report unless it IS substantiation.
.
If we love someone, truth about them and respect for them matters.
Since I love and adore Mary far more than my own mother, I will continue my respect. And I will continue to ask my questions. I have no reason to believe you will ever address them (you've been ignoring them for over 190 pages of posts) but instead will choose to attack me, attempt to divert the issue from what the Dogma/doctrine teaches, and try to "turn the tables" to those who say nothing about Her sex life. Truth about and respect for someone may not be an issue for the EO - you've never answered my question if it's okay to spread rumors about people as long as you think it true, but I think it IS a concern for Catholics since the RCC says it's a SIN (it's word, not mine) to spread a story/report unless it IS substantiation.
.
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Don't forget this verse 
Colo 1:26 The Mystery having been Hid from the ages and from the generations now yet was made manifest to the holy-ones of Him.
27 To-whom wills, the God, to make known any the riches of the glory of the Mystery, this, in the Nations which is Christ in ye the hope of glory.
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T
Thekla
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So why do you refer to Joseph as the husband of Mary when the Bible does not state this
If you don't know with certainty whether he is or isn't her husband, how can you claim to speak the truth by calling Joseph Mary's husband ?
(Is this another paradosis = didaskalia thing ?)
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Philothei
Love never fails
Cj,
I am not RCC to start off... I am not attacking you but what you write and this is a debate i can question you as much as you can question me... and you have done plenty of that yourself ...It is simple your position is that we should not say that MAry is either EV or not... and that is your position. But in order to defend it you do have to come up with support from the BIBle and Christ as He is the Son of Mary and he would be the one to tell us as
in so many commandments to "honor" his mother by "not talking about her"
it is simple.... guess what???? He does not... Nowhere in the Bible it says we are to do that ....ONLY we see that all generations will call her blessed......
and we do that we DO CALL her blessed...IT does not specify that we should not call here EVER VIRGIN or not that is your own OPINION and PRACTiCe... and you are so desperately trying to give us a guilt trip to your fellow man who does... IT seems manipulative and a distortion as again it is no where to be found in the BIBLE... YOU APPLY HUMANISTIC STANDARDS to how Christians should or should not "think"and "believe" about Mary....
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T
Thekla
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You are the one insisting that she was married to Joseph despite the fact that there is no Biblical evidence to support it.
Please provide the evidence for your presently unsubstantiated view.
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http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a3p2.htm
487 What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.
Peace
487 What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.
Peace
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T
Thekla
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And you are the one insisting that she may have engaged in sexual activity, even though you cannot provide evidence that she was married.Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiahI'll make the statement simpler:
YOU are the one insisting on how often Mary had sex, or not.
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http://www.kofc.org/un/publications...&subSecNum=0&headernum=0&ParNum=484&ParType=5
Mary-"ever-virgin"
499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. 154 In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it." 155 And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin". 156
500 Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. 157 The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, "brothers of Jesus", are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls "the other Mary". 158 They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression. 159 501 Jesus is Mary's only son, but her spiritual motherhood extends to all men whom indeed he came to save: "The Son whom she brought forth is he whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren, that is, the faithful in whose generation and formation she co-operates with a mother's love." 160
Peace
Mary-"ever-virgin"
499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. 154 In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it." 155 And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin". 156
500 Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. 157 The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, "brothers of Jesus", are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls "the other Mary". 158 They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression. 159 501 Jesus is Mary's only son, but her spiritual motherhood extends to all men whom indeed he came to save: "The Son whom she brought forth is he whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren, that is, the faithful in whose generation and formation she co-operates with a mother's love." 160
Peace
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Cited text foot note 154:
154 Cf. DS 291; 294; 427; 442; 503; 571; 1880.
CITED TEXT:
St. Leo the Great, Epistle Lectis dilectionis tuae (449): DS 291
Likewise the only-begotten and eternal [Son] of the eternal Father "was born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary". This temporal birth in no way diminishes or adds to the eternal birth, but is entirely expended in restoring man who had been deceived so that he might conquer death and destroy by his own strength the devil who had dominion over death. For we cannot conquer the author of sin and death unless [the Son] takes up our nature and makes it his own, he whom neither sin can defile nor death restrain.
Indeed he was conceived by the Holy Spirit within the womb of the virgin mother, who bore him without losing her virginity just as she conceived without losing her virginity.
St. Leo the Great, Epistle Lectis dilectionis tuae (449): DS 294
Consequently, the Son of God entered into these lowly conditions of the world, after descending from His celestial throne, and though He did not withdraw from the glory of the Father, He was generated in a new order and in a new nativity. In a new order, because invisible in His own, He was made visible in ours; incomprehensible [in His own], He wished to be comprehended; permanent before times, He began to be in time; the Lord of the universe assumed the form of a slave, concealing the immensity of His majesty; the impassible God did not disdain to be a passible man and the immortal [did not disdain] to be subject to the laws of death. Moreover, He was generated in a new nativity, because inviolate virginity [that] did not know concupiscence furnished the material of His body. From the mother of the Lord, nature, not guilt, was assumed; and in the Lord Jesus Christ born from the womb of the Virgin, because His birth was miraculous, nature was not for that reason different from ours. For He who is true God, is likewise true man, and there is no falsehood in this unity, as long as there are alternately the lowliness of man and the exaltedness of the Divinity. For, just as God is not changed by His compassion, so man is not destroyed by His dignity. For each nature does what is proper to it with the mutual participation of the other; the Word clearly effecting what belongs to the Word, and the flesh performing what belongs to the flesh. One of these gleams with miracles; the other sinks under injuries. And just as the Word does not withdraw from the equality of the paternal glory, so His body does not abandon the nature of our race.
Council of Constantinople II (553): DS 427
If anyone says that the holy glorious ever-virgin Mary is falsely but not truly the Mother of God; or (is the Mother of God) according to relation, as if a mere man were born, but as if the Word of God became incarnate [and of her] from her, but the birth of the man according to them being referred to the Word of God as being with the man when he was born, and falsely accuses the holy synod of Chalcedon of proclaiming the Virgin Mother of God according to this impious conception which was invented by Theodore; or, if anyone calls her the mother of the man or the mother of the Christ, as if the Christ were not God, but does not confess that she is exactly and truly the Mother of God, because God the Word, born of the Father before the ages, was made flesh from her in the last days, and that thus the holy Synod of Chalcedon confessed her (to be), let such a one be anathema.
Pope Pelagius I, Letter (557): DS 442
Of this holy and blessed and consubstantial Trinity I believe and I confess that one person, that is, the Son of God in these last days descended from heaven, without leaving the Fatherly seat nor the government of the world, and that the Holy Spirit came upon the Virgin Mary and the power of the Most High overshadowed her, that this Word and Son of God mercifully entered the womb of the same holy Virgin Mary and from her flesh united to herself flesh animated by a rational and intellectual soul; nor that the Son of God first created flesh and afterwards came into it but as it is written, "wisdom built herself a house" so that as soon as there was flesh in the womb of the Virgin, it was the flesh of the Word of God, whence, without any permutation or change of the Word or of nature's flesh, the Word and Son of God was made man, one in both natures, that is, the divine and human natures, and that Christ Jesus true God and the same true man proceeded, that is, was born, while his mother's virginity remained intact: for the Virgin remained such in bearing him just as she had in conceiving him. On account of this we confess that the same blessed virgin Mary is truly Mother of God: for she bore the incarnate Word of God. Therefore one and the same Jesus Christ is the true Son of God and also true son of man, perfect in divinity and likewise perfect in humanity, so that he exists totally in what is his and totally in what is ours; and by a second birth he took up from man, his mother, what he was not, in such a way that he did not cease being what by the first birth, from the Father, he was. For this reason we believe him to be from two natures and in two natures which remain undivided and unconfused: undivided certainly because even after the assumption of our nature the one Christ remained and remains Son of God: unconfused, however, because we believe the natures to be so united in one person and subsistence that each retains its properties and neither is converted into the other. And therefore, as we have often said, we confess one and the same Christ to be true Son of God, and the same to be true son of man, consubstantial with the Father according to divinity and consubstantial with us according to humanity, like us in all things except sin; able to suffer in the flesh, the very same unable to suffer in divinity. We confess that he freely suffered in the flesh under Pontius Pilate for our salvation, died in the flesh, rose the third day, in the same flesh glorified and incorruptible, and . . . ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father.
Lateran Council (649): DS 503
If anyone does not properly and truly confess in accord with the holy Fathers, that the holy Mother of God and ever Virgin and immaculate Mary in the earliest of the ages conceived of the Holy Spirit without seed, namely, God the Word Himself specifically and truly, who was born of God the Father before all ages, and that she incorruptibly bore [Him?], her virginity remaining indestructible even after His birth, let him be condemned.
Creed of the Council of Toledo XVI (693): DS 571
Hence, although the works of the Trinity are inseparable, still we faithfully profess . . . that it was not the whole Trinity that took up flesh, but only the Son of God, who is begotten before all ages from the substance of God the Father, was born of the Virgin Mary at the end of the ages as the Gospel testifies when it says "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us". . . . The angel's greeting when he says that the Holy Spirit will come upon her and proclaims that the power of the Most High, which is the Son of God the Father, will overshadow her, shows that the entire Trinity cooperates in the flesh of that same Son. And as the Virgin acquired the modesty of virginity before conception, so also she experienced no loss other integrity; for she conceived a virgin, gave birth a virgin, and after birth retained the uninterrupted modesty of an intact virgin.
Council of Trent (1555): DS 1880 Since the depravity and iniquity of certain men have reached such a point in our time that, of those who wander and deviate from the Catholic faith, very many indeed not only presume to profess different heresies but also to deny the foundations of the faith itself, and by their example lead many away to the destruction of their souls, we, in accord with our pastoral office and charity, desiring, in so far as we are able with God, to call such men away from so grave and destructive an error, and with paternal severity to warn the rest, lest they fall into such impiety, all and each who have hitherto asserted, claimed or believed that Almighty God was not three in persons and of an entirely uncomposed and undivided unity of substance and one single simple essence of divinity; or that our Lord is not true God of the same substance in every way with the Father and the Holy Spirit, or that He was not conceived of the Holy Spirit according to the flesh in the womb of the most blessed and ever Virgin Mary, but from the seed of Joseph just as the rest of men; or that the same Lord and our God, Jesus Christ, did not submit to the most cruel death of the Cross to redeem us from sins and from eternal death, and to reunite us with the Father unto eternal life; or that the same most blessed Virgin Mary was not the true mother of God, and did not always persist in the integrity of virginity, namely, before bringing forth, at bringing forth, and always after bringing forth, on the part of the omnipotent God the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, with apostolic authority we demand and advise, etc.
Don't see the word sex there.
Peace
154 Cf. DS 291; 294; 427; 442; 503; 571; 1880.
CITED TEXT:
St. Leo the Great, Epistle Lectis dilectionis tuae (449): DS 291
Likewise the only-begotten and eternal [Son] of the eternal Father "was born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary". This temporal birth in no way diminishes or adds to the eternal birth, but is entirely expended in restoring man who had been deceived so that he might conquer death and destroy by his own strength the devil who had dominion over death. For we cannot conquer the author of sin and death unless [the Son] takes up our nature and makes it his own, he whom neither sin can defile nor death restrain.
Indeed he was conceived by the Holy Spirit within the womb of the virgin mother, who bore him without losing her virginity just as she conceived without losing her virginity.
St. Leo the Great, Epistle Lectis dilectionis tuae (449): DS 294
Consequently, the Son of God entered into these lowly conditions of the world, after descending from His celestial throne, and though He did not withdraw from the glory of the Father, He was generated in a new order and in a new nativity. In a new order, because invisible in His own, He was made visible in ours; incomprehensible [in His own], He wished to be comprehended; permanent before times, He began to be in time; the Lord of the universe assumed the form of a slave, concealing the immensity of His majesty; the impassible God did not disdain to be a passible man and the immortal [did not disdain] to be subject to the laws of death. Moreover, He was generated in a new nativity, because inviolate virginity [that] did not know concupiscence furnished the material of His body. From the mother of the Lord, nature, not guilt, was assumed; and in the Lord Jesus Christ born from the womb of the Virgin, because His birth was miraculous, nature was not for that reason different from ours. For He who is true God, is likewise true man, and there is no falsehood in this unity, as long as there are alternately the lowliness of man and the exaltedness of the Divinity. For, just as God is not changed by His compassion, so man is not destroyed by His dignity. For each nature does what is proper to it with the mutual participation of the other; the Word clearly effecting what belongs to the Word, and the flesh performing what belongs to the flesh. One of these gleams with miracles; the other sinks under injuries. And just as the Word does not withdraw from the equality of the paternal glory, so His body does not abandon the nature of our race.
Council of Constantinople II (553): DS 427
If anyone says that the holy glorious ever-virgin Mary is falsely but not truly the Mother of God; or (is the Mother of God) according to relation, as if a mere man were born, but as if the Word of God became incarnate [and of her] from her, but the birth of the man according to them being referred to the Word of God as being with the man when he was born, and falsely accuses the holy synod of Chalcedon of proclaiming the Virgin Mother of God according to this impious conception which was invented by Theodore; or, if anyone calls her the mother of the man or the mother of the Christ, as if the Christ were not God, but does not confess that she is exactly and truly the Mother of God, because God the Word, born of the Father before the ages, was made flesh from her in the last days, and that thus the holy Synod of Chalcedon confessed her (to be), let such a one be anathema.
Pope Pelagius I, Letter (557): DS 442
Of this holy and blessed and consubstantial Trinity I believe and I confess that one person, that is, the Son of God in these last days descended from heaven, without leaving the Fatherly seat nor the government of the world, and that the Holy Spirit came upon the Virgin Mary and the power of the Most High overshadowed her, that this Word and Son of God mercifully entered the womb of the same holy Virgin Mary and from her flesh united to herself flesh animated by a rational and intellectual soul; nor that the Son of God first created flesh and afterwards came into it but as it is written, "wisdom built herself a house" so that as soon as there was flesh in the womb of the Virgin, it was the flesh of the Word of God, whence, without any permutation or change of the Word or of nature's flesh, the Word and Son of God was made man, one in both natures, that is, the divine and human natures, and that Christ Jesus true God and the same true man proceeded, that is, was born, while his mother's virginity remained intact: for the Virgin remained such in bearing him just as she had in conceiving him. On account of this we confess that the same blessed virgin Mary is truly Mother of God: for she bore the incarnate Word of God. Therefore one and the same Jesus Christ is the true Son of God and also true son of man, perfect in divinity and likewise perfect in humanity, so that he exists totally in what is his and totally in what is ours; and by a second birth he took up from man, his mother, what he was not, in such a way that he did not cease being what by the first birth, from the Father, he was. For this reason we believe him to be from two natures and in two natures which remain undivided and unconfused: undivided certainly because even after the assumption of our nature the one Christ remained and remains Son of God: unconfused, however, because we believe the natures to be so united in one person and subsistence that each retains its properties and neither is converted into the other. And therefore, as we have often said, we confess one and the same Christ to be true Son of God, and the same to be true son of man, consubstantial with the Father according to divinity and consubstantial with us according to humanity, like us in all things except sin; able to suffer in the flesh, the very same unable to suffer in divinity. We confess that he freely suffered in the flesh under Pontius Pilate for our salvation, died in the flesh, rose the third day, in the same flesh glorified and incorruptible, and . . . ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father.
Lateran Council (649): DS 503
If anyone does not properly and truly confess in accord with the holy Fathers, that the holy Mother of God and ever Virgin and immaculate Mary in the earliest of the ages conceived of the Holy Spirit without seed, namely, God the Word Himself specifically and truly, who was born of God the Father before all ages, and that she incorruptibly bore [Him?], her virginity remaining indestructible even after His birth, let him be condemned.
Creed of the Council of Toledo XVI (693): DS 571
Hence, although the works of the Trinity are inseparable, still we faithfully profess . . . that it was not the whole Trinity that took up flesh, but only the Son of God, who is begotten before all ages from the substance of God the Father, was born of the Virgin Mary at the end of the ages as the Gospel testifies when it says "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us". . . . The angel's greeting when he says that the Holy Spirit will come upon her and proclaims that the power of the Most High, which is the Son of God the Father, will overshadow her, shows that the entire Trinity cooperates in the flesh of that same Son. And as the Virgin acquired the modesty of virginity before conception, so also she experienced no loss other integrity; for she conceived a virgin, gave birth a virgin, and after birth retained the uninterrupted modesty of an intact virgin.
Council of Trent (1555): DS 1880 Since the depravity and iniquity of certain men have reached such a point in our time that, of those who wander and deviate from the Catholic faith, very many indeed not only presume to profess different heresies but also to deny the foundations of the faith itself, and by their example lead many away to the destruction of their souls, we, in accord with our pastoral office and charity, desiring, in so far as we are able with God, to call such men away from so grave and destructive an error, and with paternal severity to warn the rest, lest they fall into such impiety, all and each who have hitherto asserted, claimed or believed that Almighty God was not three in persons and of an entirely uncomposed and undivided unity of substance and one single simple essence of divinity; or that our Lord is not true God of the same substance in every way with the Father and the Holy Spirit, or that He was not conceived of the Holy Spirit according to the flesh in the womb of the most blessed and ever Virgin Mary, but from the seed of Joseph just as the rest of men; or that the same Lord and our God, Jesus Christ, did not submit to the most cruel death of the Cross to redeem us from sins and from eternal death, and to reunite us with the Father unto eternal life; or that the same most blessed Virgin Mary was not the true mother of God, and did not always persist in the integrity of virginity, namely, before bringing forth, at bringing forth, and always after bringing forth, on the part of the omnipotent God the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, with apostolic authority we demand and advise, etc.
Don't see the word sex there.
Peace
Last edited:
Upvote
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155 LG 57.
CITED TEXT:
Lumen gentium 57
This union of the Mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to His death it is shown first of all when Mary, arising in haste to go to visit Elizabeth, is greeted by her as blessed because of her belief in the promise of salvation and the precursor leaped with joy in the womb of his mother.(288) This union is manifest also at the birth of Our Lord, who did not diminish His mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it,(10*) when the Mother of God joyfully showed her firstborn Son to the shepherds and Magi. When she presented Him to the Lord in the temple, making the offering of the poor, she heard Simeon foretelling at the same time that her Son would be a sign of contradiction and that a sword would pierce the mother's soul, that out of many hearts thoughts might be revealed.(289) When the Child Jesus was lost and they had sought Him sorrowing, His parents found Him in the temple, taken up with the things that were His Father's business; and they did not understand the word of their Son. His Mother indeed kept these things to be pondered over in her heart.(290)
NOTES
288) Cf. Lk. 1, 41-45.
289) Cf. Lk. 2, 34-35.
290) Cf. Lk. 2, 41-51.
Supplementary Notes (*) (10) Cfr. Conc. Lateranense anni 649, Can. 3: Mansi 10, 1151. S. Leo M., Epist. ad Flav.: PL S4, 7S9. - Conc. Chalcedonense: Mansi 7, 462. - S. Ambrosius, De inst. virg.: PL 16, 320.
Don't see the word sex there either.
Peace
CITED TEXT:
Lumen gentium 57
This union of the Mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to His death it is shown first of all when Mary, arising in haste to go to visit Elizabeth, is greeted by her as blessed because of her belief in the promise of salvation and the precursor leaped with joy in the womb of his mother.(288) This union is manifest also at the birth of Our Lord, who did not diminish His mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it,(10*) when the Mother of God joyfully showed her firstborn Son to the shepherds and Magi. When she presented Him to the Lord in the temple, making the offering of the poor, she heard Simeon foretelling at the same time that her Son would be a sign of contradiction and that a sword would pierce the mother's soul, that out of many hearts thoughts might be revealed.(289) When the Child Jesus was lost and they had sought Him sorrowing, His parents found Him in the temple, taken up with the things that were His Father's business; and they did not understand the word of their Son. His Mother indeed kept these things to be pondered over in her heart.(290)
NOTES
288) Cf. Lk. 1, 41-45.
289) Cf. Lk. 2, 34-35.
290) Cf. Lk. 2, 41-51.
Supplementary Notes (*) (10) Cfr. Conc. Lateranense anni 649, Can. 3: Mansi 10, 1151. S. Leo M., Epist. ad Flav.: PL S4, 7S9. - Conc. Chalcedonense: Mansi 7, 462. - S. Ambrosius, De inst. virg.: PL 16, 320.
Don't see the word sex there either.
Peace
Upvote
0
156 Cf. LG 52.
CITED TEXT:
Lumen gentium 52
Wishing in His supreme goodness and wisdom to effect the redemption of the world, "when the fullness of time came, God sent His Son, born of a woman, ..that we might receive the adoption of sons".(283) "He for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit from the Virgin Mary."(1*) This divine mystery of salvation is revealed to us and continued in the Church, which the Lord established as His body. Joined to Christ the Head and in the unity of fellowship with all His saints, the faithful must in the first place reverence the memory "of the glorious ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our God and Lord Jesus Christ".(2*)
NOTES
283) Gal. 4, 4-5
Supplementary Notes (*)
(1) Credo in Missa Romana: Symbolum Constantinopolitanum: Mansi 3, 566. Cfr. Conc. Ephesinum, ib. 4, 1130 (necnon ib. 2, 665 et 4, 1071); Conc. Chalcedonense, ib. 7, 111-116; Cow. Constantinopolitanum II, ib. 9, 375-396. (2) Canon Missae Romanae.
Don't see the word sex there either.
The PV of Mary is about the Jesus. It's about Jesus and the uniqueness of His person. Not about having or not having sex
Peace
CITED TEXT:
Lumen gentium 52
Wishing in His supreme goodness and wisdom to effect the redemption of the world, "when the fullness of time came, God sent His Son, born of a woman, ..that we might receive the adoption of sons".(283) "He for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit from the Virgin Mary."(1*) This divine mystery of salvation is revealed to us and continued in the Church, which the Lord established as His body. Joined to Christ the Head and in the unity of fellowship with all His saints, the faithful must in the first place reverence the memory "of the glorious ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our God and Lord Jesus Christ".(2*)
NOTES
283) Gal. 4, 4-5
Supplementary Notes (*)
(1) Credo in Missa Romana: Symbolum Constantinopolitanum: Mansi 3, 566. Cfr. Conc. Ephesinum, ib. 4, 1130 (necnon ib. 2, 665 et 4, 1071); Conc. Chalcedonense, ib. 7, 111-116; Cow. Constantinopolitanum II, ib. 9, 375-396. (2) Canon Missae Romanae.
Don't see the word sex there either.
The PV of Mary is about the Jesus. It's about Jesus and the uniqueness of His person. Not about having or not having sex
Peace
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Let me try yet again.
I have no position on how often Mary had sex.
I have no dogma.
I have no doctrine.
I have no official teaching.
NO Protestant denomination known to me does.
I have no pious opinion.
I don't even have a pure spectulation.
This seems to completely allude you.
I would be glad to try to clarify it for you, but I'm quite at a loss to know what part of it is not understood by you.
NO Protestant denomination known to me has a dogma or doctrine that Mary has sex once.
Or twice.
Or thrice.
Or 50 times.
Or 500 times.
Or 5000 times.
Or at all.
With Joseph
Or with anyone else.
We have no position to substantiate here for one reason that entirely eludes you - for over 190 pages of posts. WE DON'T HAVE A POSITION. We're not the "opposite" of any position because we don't have ANY official position. Is there something about this that, after all these pages of posts, STILL eludes you?
You do.
Mary Had No Sex EVER.
It's DOCTRINE in the EO.
It's DOGMA in the RCC.
You DO have a position.
A very precise one.
A very high level one.
It's entirely about Mary.
It's entirely about sexual intercourse.
It's that this one person never had intercourse.
Since you have the position, you have the "burden of proof."
I don't dispute that it's POSSIBLE ("With God ALL THINGS are possible" Luke 1:37) That doesn't make it true, much less doctrine or dogma.
I don't dispute that those spreading it say its true (that's common with rumors, which remain such UNTIL they are SUBSTANTIATED)
No, Christ never said it's RUDE. But you insist that it's NOT.
It's NOT Christ's position under review here, because as you noted, His stated position is exactly the same as mine - He doesn't have a stated view on how often Mary had sex (if at all), as you noted. Now, IF you were telling me that you'd consider it the highest honor and DISTINCTIVELY LOVING if all of us would tell the whole world how often you have sex, then your argument that it's not rude would be much stronger. It was said you would NOT ask Mary how often she had sex because it is know via your denomination - but it was never answered if that's the ONLY reason She would not be asked this question, nor was it ever answered if it would be regarded as distinctively loving for me to ask all Orthodox and Catholic females how often they have had sex. IF you were insisting that we ask everyone and tell everyone how often they have sex, and it is supremely LOVING toward them to tell all 6.5 billion people (including kids) how often they have sex, I'd chuck this up to a conflict in values. But you're not taking that position. Makes me wonder why you are convinced, to the level of DOCTRINE that Mary has the EXACT OPPOSITE feeling about all this than you do. And in a matter of supreme privacy and intimacy. Friend, it's not an issue for me because I'm not saying anything about Her sex life. You are. A very, very BIG thing. And you are responsible for what you say about His Mother. Seems to ME there is at least a very real possibility for offense, hurt, pain, embarrassment here. That, combined with love for her and respect for truth about Her, should give pause. But read these 190 pages of posts. It's amazing. Truly amazing.
Pax
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