Speak lovingly of Mary

[Thekla]

Let me try yet again.
I have no position on how often Mary had sex.

are you suggesting she might have, though there is no evidence that she was married ?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

And you are the one insisting that she may have engaged in sexual activity

Let me try yet again.
I have no position on how often Mary had sex.
I have no dogma.
I have no doctrine.
I have no official teaching.
NO Protestant denomination known to me does.

I have no pious opinion.
I don't even have a pure spectulation.
This seems to completely allude you.
I would be glad to try to clarify it for you, but I'm quite at a loss to know what part of it is not understood by you.

NO Protestant denomination known to me has a dogma or doctrine that Mary has sex once.
Or twice.
Or thrice.
Or 50 times.
Or 500 times.
Or 5000 times.
Or at all.
With Joseph
Or with anyone else.

We have no position to substantiate here for one reason that entirely eludes you - for over 190 pages of posts. WE DON'T HAVE A POSITION. We're not the "opposite" of any position because we don't have ANY official position. Is there something about this that, after all these pages of posts, STILL eludes you?

You do.
You insist that Mary Had No Sex EVER.
It's DOCTRINE in the EO.
It's DOGMA in the RCC.
You DO have a position.
A very precise one.
A very high level one.
It's entirely about Mary.
It's entirely about sexual intercourse.
It's that this one person never had intercourse.

Since you have the position, you have the "burden of proof."

And to the issue of this thread, you are the one that needs to show that it is distinctively LOVING to tell the whole world how often a person has sex (or not).





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[Thekla]

And to the issue of this thread, you are the one that needs to show that it is distinctively LOVING to tell the whole world how often a person has sex (or not).

Have you read much of the Old Testament ?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The PV of Mary is about the uniqueness of the humanity of the Incarnation.

You may believe it's ABOUT anything you like.
But the DOGMA is this: MARY IS A PERPETUAL VIRGIN.
"Perpetual" = Always, forever, without exception.
"Virgin" = one who has never had sexual intercourse.
Mary had no sex ever.
That's the dogma.

Now, you can draw whatever implications, conclusions, thoughts, etc. that you like FROM that, but that does not change the dogma. We all know what the dogma is.




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[Thekla]

I have no position on how often Mary had sex.

Absent evidence of her marriage, your position aligns you with those of the early centuries who attacked Christ based on the false witness spread about that she was a woman of loose morals.

(See Celsus, whose report on the matter aligns with what some of the Jews were saying.)

 

[Thekla]

Now, you can draw whatever implications, conclusions, thoughts, etc. that you like FROM that, but that does not change the dogma. We all know what the dogma is.
.

this is a deceptive way to support an argument
- redefining definitions at will

(some) of the words you have either no definition for, or for which you change the definition to suit your wind:
dogma
kerygma
doctrine
tradition

 

[Thekla]

And to the issue of this thread, you are the one that needs to show that it is distinctively LOVING to tell the whole world how often a person has sex (or not).

so, if you could explain, is it the report of how many times someone has had sex, or whether or not someone has had sex, that disturbs you ?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man

Thank you. Yes, we all know, the Dogma of The Perpetual Virginity of Mary confesses Mary's "real and perpetual virginity." That's it. I don' know why you and for awhile one Orthodox poster are trying to deny this (the ORthodox one no longer denies it).

Now,

1. Two denominations out of 30,000 INSIST that Mary never had intercourse with Joseph. Why is THIS PARTICULAR aspect of Our Lady's extremely intimate, supremely private, very personal, aspect of her relationship with her spouse such an obsession to the very highest level of importance for the RCC alone? Why is THIS singular thing about this singular person an issue of importance of the very highest issue? Why this extreme obsession to the very highest level with how often she had sex or not?

2. Since the Catholic Catechism says that it is a SIN (and thus not loving) to spread an unsubstantiated report or story about someone thus making substantiation the issue, then where is the substantiation for the report about Mary that you are dogmatically spreading that she had no sex ever?

3. No married Catholic here has insisted that they would regard it as a matter of supreme love and honor if we'd all tell the whole world (including kids) how often they have sex (or not), in fact one Catholic posted that my even raising that issue is extremely rude of me (and I gotta say, I don't disagree). Thus, I'm left wondering, if no Catholic here thinks that it's a matter of highest possible importance and a distinctively LOVING thing for all the world's 6.5 billion people to know this detail about their intimate marital sharing , then why are you absolutely, dogmatically CERTAIN that Mary has the exact opp osite feeling about all this, 180 degrees different than you? Do you have her permission to tell everyone this normally very private aspect of her marriage?


See, if after my parents died, someone began telling everyone that my Mom had sex 2 times per week on average and always in the "missionary position," I'd have the same 3 issues with all those people spreading this everywhere. 1) Why is THIS issue so amazingly, completely important to them? 2) How do they know this to be true? 3) Do they have my parent's permission to tell this, even if they know it to be true? But then I LOVE Mary far more than I love my earthly mom so all this is MUCH, MUCH more important when speaking of Mary, and people spreading a rumor is far , far less than a denomination officially proclaiming DOGMA - calling this issue the highest level of importance and to deny such is to be a heretic.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





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[Thekla]

1. Two denominations out of 30,000 INSIST that Mary never had intercourse with Joseph. Why is THIS PARTICULAR aspect of Our Lady's extremely intimate, supremely private, very personal, aspect of her relationship with her spouse such an obsession to the very highest level of importance for the RCC alone?


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1. please define spouse (please stick with the definition you use thereafter)
2. your "denomination count" for those who hold to the ever-virginity is off

 

[Philothei]

No, Christ never said it's RUDE.

That is for fact He never did so what is your point?

But you insist that it's NOT.

It is a matter of opinion.....just like you insist it is...no different ...ONE OPINION OVER Someone else's...

It's NOT Christ's position under review here, because as you noted, His stated position is exactly the same as mine - He doesn't have a stated view on how often Mary had sex (if at all), as you noted.

Christ's opinion is sacred your is not... Those are straw men arguments and moot. It has no weight on what Christ states and thinks ....Caus you are not Christ and Christ is not you...period.

Now, IF you were telling me that you'd consider it the highest honor and DISTINCTIVELY LOVING if all of us would tell the whole world how often you have sex, then your argument that it's not rude would be much stronger.

straw man... another one ....The argument about me and you cannot stand as many times in the BIBle we have "sexually" oriented topics such as Lot and his daughters, Song of Solomon with explicit language etc... The BIBLE is a book about life and the sex life of its characters are PUBLIC and transparent... Are they also rumours???? NO why then Theotokos was a rumor ....if we speak of her either way and we are condemned? Guess who has a hang up with sexual oriented topics here....

It was said you would NOT ask Mary how often she had sex because it is know via your denomination - but it was never answered if that's the ONLY reason

Why? you think we are all nosy? Does Christ care if we think either way? I think He cares about our salvation and He cared about His mother taken care off right there at the cross. If the EV was an issue he would have very well provided for her so here "name was not mud".... .Me thinks. Christ not saying either way that means he defenately does not mind the EV or the opposite at least that is obvious as respecting His mother and doubting her EV could be more of an irritation to Him... since according to the "New Testament" trad. and Apostolic tradition that opinion sipped into the worship by Christ's cousin James .... Why would the Apostles allow for such an opinion? They would not if they knew that Christ would not be in complete agreement with it...

She would not be asked this question, nor was it ever answered if it would be regarded as distinctively loving for me to ask all Orthodox and Catholic females how often they have had sex.

straw man.... we are not Maries.....

IF you were insisting that we ask everyone and tell everyone how often they have sex, and it is supremely LOVING toward them to tell all 6.5 billion people (including kids) how often they have sex, I'd chuck this up to a conflict in values. But you're not taking that position.

straw man again.... Is there a conflict in values in the Bible that talks explicit about sexual relationships? YOu just skip through them until the children are older... That is all. EV though has a sacred purpose like the incarnation does... Teaching kids the incarnation also has sexual content....what that we must not "teach" them that because it does??

Makes me wonder why you are convinced, to the level of DOCTRINE that Mary has the EXACT OPPOSITE feeling about all this than you do. And in a matter of supreme privacy and intimacy.

Because Christ never said that Mary's life was "private" and we should leave it alone... YOU keep repeating your self and always come up with more staw man....

Friend, it's not an issue for me because I'm not saying anything about Her sex life. You are.

And how is it your business what I say? If you honesty believe it is disrespectful to Theotokos you would not be discussing this...but you do so you are as guilty for participating in "gosssip"....

A very, very BIG thing. And you are responsible for what you say about His Mother. Seems to ME there is at least a very real possibility for offense, hurt, pain, embarrassment here.

AGain straw man and accusation and pointing the finger while you do the same....lol..... By pointing fingers and throw condemnation you are doing God's work?

That, combined with love for her and respect for truth about Her, should give pause. But read these 190 pages of posts. It's amazing. Truly amazing.

Yeah it is amazing how some are trying to throw guilt trips to other Christians for their practices while they do not even try to understand their position .... but merely straw man every opportunity they get... trully sad </STRONG>

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

so, if you could explain, is it the report of how many times someone has had sex, or whether or not someone has had sex, that disturbs you ?

I never said it did. I said it has the POTENTIAL to do so to Our Mother. But, let me ask you. How often do you have sex with your spouse? What positions do you use? Where do you have sex? How does that all work for you two? Now, after you tell us, I'll at least know (which is a LOT more than you've revealed about Mary). Since you insist the telling of such is a matter of highest importance and is distinctively loving, I'm SURE you'll command all of us to tell the world's 6.5 billion people (including kids) all this information. And if y ou were Catholic, you'd insist that we make it a matter of highest importance and if any denys it, they are a heretic and their very eternal salvation is in question.





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[Philothei]

WE DON'T HAVE A POSITION.

Through the Bible it does not support why you who has no position have to come to Me or Thekla or Lionroar and "teach me" to have "no position" also....
-Christ does not say that
-Bible does not say that...
-Apostolic Tradition does not say that....
-Protestant Tradition does not even say that....

You condemn your brothers and sisters by pointing your finger....but it is ONLY you since Christ does not...

 

[Philothei]

I never said it did. I said it has the POTENTIAL to do so to Our Mother. But, let me ask you. How often do you have sex with your spouse? What positions do you use? Where do you have sex? How does that all work for you two? Now, after you tell us, I'll at least know (which is a LOT more than you've revealed about Mary). Since you insist the telling of such is a matter of highest importance and is distinctively loving, I'm SURE you'll command all of us to tell the world's 6.5 billion people (including kids) all this information. And if y ou were Catholic, you'd insist that we make it a matter of highest importance and if any denys it, they are a heretic and their very eternal salvation is in question.

Totally unappropriate and straw man.... Thekla's sex life has no bearing in this... She is not Mary and neither proves anything...

 

[Thekla]

I never said it did. I said it has the POTENTIAL to do so to Our Mother. But, let me ask you. How often do you have sex with your spouse? What positions do you use? Where do you have sex? How does that all work for you two? Now, after you tell us, I'll at least know (which is a LOT more than you've revealed about Mary). Since you insist the telling of such is a matter of highest importance and is distinctively loving, I'm SURE you'll command all of us to tell the world's 6.5 billion people (including kids) all this information. And if y ou were Catholic, you'd insist that we make it a matter of highest importance and if any denys it, they are a heretic and their very eternal salvation is in question.

1. you did not answer the question: is it the report that someone has had sex, or the report of how many times someone has had sex that disturbs you ?
2. I've been married almost 25 years - you expect me to remember everything, at my age to boot
3. the "6.5 billion" -sic- you mention are Christian family -- is it the protestant way to 'keep secrets' in the family ? That's healthy
4. How can I tell my children about the miracle of the Incarnation without mentioning the virgin birth ? You suggest now that I not tell my children about the Incarnation ??? Thats loving, to not tell them all I can about Christ ? Wouldn't that put their salvation at risk ?

 

[Thekla]

So we can't talk about Mary's virginity, or your mother's sex life, but you can inquire about my sex life (and others in this forum) and thats not rude ?

Then, despite the fact the Bible never says Mary was married, you can take no position on whether or not she had sex -- implicit in your position is the possibility that she had sex without being married. Your "no position" impugns Mary.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

That is for fact He never did so what is your point?

You have zero evidence that Christ, Mary, Joseph, or any Apostle EVER taught that Mary Had No Sex EVER or gave you permission to tell anyone that she never did. That is the issue you've brought up several times now, but you seem to not read what you yourself post.

Again, I'm NOT dogmatically insisting (or even purely and personally speculating as a matter of fallible, nonbinding theory) that Mary had sex never or once or twice or thrice or 50 times or 500 times or 5000 times or 50000 times - with Joseph or anyone else. You CONTINUE to TRY to reverse the positions, rebuking me for saying things about Mary's sex life when I'm not, YOU ARE. I wonder if this will ever dawn on you....




[quoteIt is a matter of opinion.....just like you insist it is...no different ...ONE OPINION OVER Someone else's...[/quote]

No, it's not.

It's DOGMA in the RCC.
It's DOCTRINE in the EO.

Christ's opinion is sacred your is not...

I agree.

I don't have an opinion.
YOU do.
Christ's opinion is sacred, and as you keep pointing how, Christ's stated opinion on how often Mary had sex is exactly the same as mine.
You, however, are different.

Does Christ care if we think either way?

YOU need to be 100% absolutely CERTAIN that what you are obessively insisting about His Mother is absolute Truth - becuase you are responsable for what you say (remember the Commandment: Thou shalt not bear false witness"?) IF I said that your mother was a prostitute, would you care? Would it matter to you why I"m saying this, how I know it to be true? Probably not....

I don't NEED to "care" if Christ is offended by my position regarding how often His Mother had sex. My official position is the same as His - none. YOU, on the other hand, are held eternally responsible for any hurt, pain, embarrassment, offense or anger your obsessive insistance about how often she had had sex (or not) has caused Her and thus to Her Son. I wonder how many Catholics and Orthodox even consider that. Read the 195 pages of posts in this thread and you'll have your answer to that question. But your point is valid: It doesn't apply to those of us in the 29,998 denominations that have no dogma or doctrine about how often His Mother has sex.

Christ not saying either way that means he defenately does not mind the EV

Christ never said that He would not visit the Americas and found His Church here, so by your rubric, that definately means He doesn't mind people saying that. Even proclaiming it as Dogma. And He must not mind people saying that Mary had several more kids (James, Joseph, Simon and Jude among them) since millions do, Christ didn't say if these were brothers via Mary and so He definately doesn't mine people saying that they are (even though such is purely personal opinion in stark contrast to the DOCTRINE of the EO or DOGMA of the CC). Your rubric is absurd and works against you.

Because Christ never said that Mary's life was "private" and we should leave it alone...

Christ never said that YOUR life is "private" and we should leave it alone.
So, tell us, how often do YOU have sex? What positions do you use? How does all that work for you? And, of course, since Christ didn't say otherwise, the whole world can absolutely obsess over this and insist that it is a matter of highest importance for all the world to know and if any denies it, they are a heretic and their salvation is in question. Christ never stated that YOUR life is private, so, hey, who needs to hear it from you? I'll just say that you have sex with your spouse typically 5 times per week, you do it in the living room while watching adult films and you video tape the whole thing. According to YOU, I have Christ's permission to think this and tell the whole world as a matter of highest importance because, as you note, Christ never said that your life is "private." I understand your position.






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[CaliforniaJosiah]

So we can't talk about Mary's virginity, or your mother's sex life, but you can inquire about my sex life (and others in this forum) and thats not rude ?

So, you can talk about Our Lady's sex life and that's surpremely loving and respectful, but we can't so about your sex life because that's rude? Think about that, my friend. Stop and think about that.


THEN, recall: We have no position - we aren't talking about it.
YOU have DOCTRINE about this - you are obsessively insisting on it.
Think about that.

MAYBE, after 195 pages of posts, things will begin to soak in....
Maybe....




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[Thekla]

So, CaliforniaJosiah,
1. By taking "no position", you impugn Mary, one you claim to love more than your own mother.

2. You say its rude to discuss your mother's sex life, but you inquire about mine. Obviously, you have a double standard. You believe its ok to be rude sometimes.

3. You give us the definition of virgin as "no sex ever", and say we should not discuss the sex life of others. You impugn the use of the word "virgin" in the Bible.

4. You resort to changing definitions at will, and to Quo Que.

 

[Thekla]

So, you can talk about Our Lady's sex life and that's surpremely loving and respectful, but we can't so about your sex life because that's rude? Think about that, my friend. Stop and think about that.

Yes, I can call her ever-virgin.
Its the post-reformation west that sexualised the breast and protested paintings of Mary nursing Christ. You sexualise this as well - its your denominational tradition.

THEN, recall: We have no position - we aren't talking about it.
YOU have DOCTRINE about this - you are obsessively insisting on it.
Think about that.

There is no evidence that Mary was married, yet you say "she might have had sex". This is not an affront to Christ and His mother ? Think about it.

MAYBE, after 195 pages of posts, things will begin to soak in....
Maybe....

It has certainly sunk in that you have double standards.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Through the Bible it does not support why you who has no position have to come to Me or Thekla or Lionroar and "teach me" to have "no position" also....
-Christ does not say that
-Bible does not say that...
-Apostolic Tradition does not say that....
-Protestant Tradition does not even say that....

You condemn your brothers and sisters by pointing your finger....but it is ONLY you since Christ does not...

ALL the "condemning" and proclaimations of heresy come from the RCC and EO.

You are right: Christ never said a word about how often His Mother had sex. That puts Him in the same camp as I am. And you are right: The Bible says NOTHING about how often she had sex during her lifetime (if at all). That puts the Bible and I in the same camp. But there are two denominations that DO say. One as DOGMA, the other as DOCTRINE.

I've not condemned anyone. You keep forgetting, I'm not saying ANYTHING about how often Mary had sex. Just as Christ didn't. Just as the Bible doesn't. YOU are the one obsessively insisting on this. All the proclaimations of heresy are on t he other side.

I haven't taught anyone anything (AGAIN, you seem to perpetually want toi reverse everything - it's your evading). I DON'T HAVE A POSITION ON HOW OFTEN MARY HAD SEX. The "teaching" is on the part of just two - the RCC and EO. The other 29,998 denominations have nothing to teach on this issue. Just like Christ. Just like the Bible.

YOU are eternally responsible for your obsessive insistence about Mary's sex life and any embarrassment, hurt, pain or anger such might cause to Our Mother and to Her Son. YOU must be 100%, absolutely, eternally sure that this is an issue that Mary and Christ desire you to tell the world about and it's a heresy if people deny it and that they both regard it as a matter of supreme and highest honor and as distincively LOVING toward them to proclaim THAT. As you note, Christ and the Bible are not with you on this one, they are both silent. So are 29,998 denominations. All are but two: the RCC and EO. Now, IF you regarded it as the highest honor and surpemely loving for all the world to know how often you have sex, it seems to ME your absolute, eternal certainty about Mary feeling that way would seem more reasonable, but.....






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