Spare the rod.

[tall73]

lets look at proverbs 23.
23 When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee:

2 And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite.

3 Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat.

...


Do you literally put a knife to your throat? Why not you say this part is literal with the Rod then the knife to throat much be literal too.

Because the phrase about putting a knife to one's throat is elaborated on in plain words in the next couplet of the Hebrew poetry.

As was mentioned in the other thread on the subject of spanking Hebrew poetry uses parallelism. The second line may restate, or elaborate or sometimes go the other direction.

In this case the thought of how severe a mistake it is to be a glutton before the king is elaborated upon in the next thought: Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat.

In other words it is showing it is dangerous to do such, and will surely lead to trouble, so much so that to do so is nearly as counter-productive as putting a knife to your throat. The meaning of the two phrases together is clear enough.


In the case of the later verses on the rod there is a different kind of parallelism, which is not elaboration per se but restatement in different words. In other words it is an example of synonymous Hebrew parallelism.

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.


Sheol was a term they used for where all the dead go, a similar notion to the grave. And in this case it appears to be talking about saving him from going down to sheol, or dying through a pattern of poor choices, due to lack of discipline.


The first thought of the proverb is essentially echoed in the second part, in different words. It is a common technique.

So here the parallel parts would be:


if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

There is nothing to suggest that the concept of striking with a rod literally is not included, though it may also take in other forms of discipline. Whereas in the earlier example of the king's table it is comparing two activities, both dangerous. No, of course you would not normally put a knife to your throat. So why would you do something equally dangerous and be a glutton before the king?

You have to take each section on its own merits.

 

[tall73]

The truth is i have never seen a case of a parent striking a child that was not done out of anger.

I have. And there is a big difference.

 

[tall73]

So hey its fine you live by I can strike my child, but don't be a punk, when you do something wrong against an adult expect to be struck.

The Exodus law included such punishment when warranted. Such punishment is not pleasant, no doubt. But then compared to jail time or long prison terms, it may be preferable. It is over with quickly, the person can learn and move on. Whereas prison imposes burdens on society, further removes the person from jobs, friends, family, and puts them in the presence of other people who lack discipline who can be poor examples. Then they have to re-integrate into society afterwards.

Deu 25:1 "If there is a dispute between men and they come into court and the judges decide between them, acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty,
Deu 25:2 then if the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall cause him to lie down and be beaten in his presence with a number of stripes in proportion to his offense.
Deu 25:3 Forty stripes may be given him, but not more, lest, if one should go on to beat him with more stripes than these, your brother be degraded in your sight.

There were limits to the punishment to preserve dignity.

 

[ebia]

Quite true...but you're missing the point of my post.

Given that.
And given that there were temple guards to arrest people on the spot for that kind of behaviour then as well.

Im hard pressed to see what point is left in the post.

 

[Bluelion]

Because the phrase about putting a knife to one's throat is elaborated on in plain words in the next couplet of the Hebrew poetry.

As was mentioned in the other thread on the subject of spanking Hebrew poetry uses parallelism. The second line may restate, or elaborate or sometimes go the other direction.

In this case the thought of how severe a mistake it is to be a glutton before the king is elaborated upon in the next thought: Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat.

In other words it is showing it is dangerous to do such, and will surely lead to trouble, so much so that to do so is nearly as counter-productive as putting a knife to your throat. The meaning of the two phrases together is clear enough.


In the case of the later verses on the rod there is a different kind of parallelism, which is not elaboration per se but restatement in different words. In other words it is an example of synonymous Hebrew parallelism.

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.


Sheol was a term they used for where all the dead go, a similar notion to the grave. And in this case it appears to be talking about saving him from going down to sheol, or dying through a pattern of poor choices, due to lack of discipline.


The first thought of the proverb is essentially echoed in the second part, in different words. It is a common technique.

So here the parallel parts would be:


if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

There is nothing to suggest that the concept of striking with a rod literally is not included, though it may also take in other forms of discipline. Whereas in the earlier example of the king's table it is comparing two activities, both dangerous. No, of course you would not normally put a knife to your throat. So why would you do something equally dangerous and be a glutton before the king?

You have to take each section on its own merits.

That's funny because i see the passage least of all about eating before the King, but rather desiring his power and glory, of course this is speaking of men who are King and Not The True King. To me it is a warning about desiring things of this world, the king which is the king of this world, or ruler of this world. It speaks against desiring worldly things. Let's check to see if that fits, well Jesus spoke the same message, So it does. What did Jesus speak of eating that nothing will defile you that you eat, is it ok to be a glutton, no, but God is not concerned with minor things, What did God say on the matter, eat to live not live to eat. Glutton is a small matter, the bigger problem is desire of worldly things.

But hey that's Just what I see. I am a simple man

 

[tall73]

That's funny because i see the passage least of all about eating before the King, but rather desiring his power and glory, of course this is speaking of men who are King and Not The True King.

Well you may not see it about eating before a king, but that is what it says:

Pro 23:1 When you sit down to eat with a ruler, observe carefully what is before you,
Pro 23:2 and put a knife to your throat if you are given to appetite

The books is a wisdom literature piece with advice on a great number of things in life. One of them is to not make a poor impression when among rulers.

The context is sitting down to eat with a ruler. If you are a big eater you better reign it in. Ie, when you are going to eat with a ruler don't focus on the great food, focus on the ruler.

To me it is a warning about desiring things of this world, the king which is the king of this world, or ruler of this world. This to me is saying don't put hope in riches.

I would put the next verse in that category. The chapter as you would agree is rather wide ranging since he moves on to discipline at the end.

Pro 23:4 Do not toil to acquire wealth; be discerning enough to desist.
Pro 23:5 When your eyes light on it, it is gone, for suddenly it sprouts wings, flying like an eagle toward heaven.

It speaks against desiring worldly things. Let's check to see if that fits, well Jesus spoke the same message, So it does. What did Jesus speak of eating that nothing will defile you that you eat, is it ok to be a glutton, no, but God is not concerned with minor things, What did God say on the matter, eat to live not live to eat. Glutton is a small matter, the bigger problem is desire of worldly things.

You cannot check what is said in one context by referencing a completely different context. It is certainly possible that wisdom literature for giving advice might address different topics than Jesus. Certainly some themes in Proverbs are not addressed by Jesus at all.

And can you provide the quote by Jesus you are referring to?


In any case, the advice about putting a knife to your throat would be an indication of how dangerous it is to do something, however you define the something. So it is not literal but an expression of the importance.

There is nothing suggesting anything but literal actions in the verse with the rod, and both verses repeat the same essential idea of striking with a rod, though the obvious intent is that discipline is indicated of which striking with a rod is only one part.

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

Using a part to represent the whole is not uncommon in such literature. So striking with a rod should not be taken to be the only discipline, but it is a representative part of discipline.

 

[Bluelion]

Well you may not see it about eating before a king, but that is what it says:

Pro 23:1 When you sit down to eat with a ruler, observe carefully what is before you,
Pro 23:2 and put a knife to your throat if you are given to appetite

The books is a wisdom literature piece with advice on a great number of things in life. One of them is to not make a poor impression when among rulers.

The context is sitting down to eat with a ruler. If you are a big eater you better reign it in. Ie, when you are going to eat with a ruler don't focus on the great food, focus on the ruler.


I would put the next verse in that category. The chapter as you would agree is rather wide ranging since he moves on to discipline at the end.

Pro 23:4 Do not toil to acquire wealth; be discerning enough to desist.
Pro 23:5 When your eyes light on it, it is gone, for suddenly it sprouts wings, flying like an eagle toward heaven.




You cannot check what is said in one context by referencing a completely different context. It is certainly possible that wisdom literature for giving advice might address different topics than Jesus. Certainly some themes in Proverbs are not addressed by Jesus at all.

And can you provide the quote by Jesus you are referring to?


In any case, the advice about putting a knife to your throat would be an indication of how dangerous it is to do something, however you define the something. So it is not literal but an expression of the importance.

There is nothing suggesting anything but literal actions in the verse with the rod, and both verses repeat the same essential idea of striking with a rod, though the obvious intent is that discipline is indicated of which striking with a rod is only one part.

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

Using a part to represent the whole is not uncommon in such literature. So striking with a rod should not be taken to be the only discipline, but it is a representative part of discipline.

lol ok Your not going to see it that's fine.

which quote of Jesus did you want me to post, the nothing you eat will defile you. Its in mat, luke, and I think in mark and john. Its when they preach against Him because He did not wash His hands, I think luke He says Nothing you eat will defile you for it goes in and goes back out to the drain, but what comes out of your mouth, the words you speak defile you, for your words reflect what is in your heart.

If you are referring to the eat to live don't live to eat I would have to look that one up. but It says it(the Bible) I might not have number meorized chapter and verse, but the Holy Spirit lets me know what God says or does not say in The Bible, God's words are written on my heart

 

[tall73]

lol ok Your not going to see it that's fine.

which quote of Jesus did you want me to post, the nothing you eat will defile you. Its in mat, luke, and I think in mark and john. Its when they preach against Him because He did not wash His hands, I think luke He says Nothing you eat will defile you for it goes in and goes back out to the drain, but what comes out of your mouth, the words you speak defile you, for your words reflect what is in your heart.

So the text there dealt with the issue of purity rituals by the religious leaders. They wanted people to perform a purity ritual (that was not commanded in Scripture incidentally), and ignored moral purity.

I do not see the immediate connection to sitting to eat with a ruler and controlling your appetite.

If you are referring to the eat to live don't live to eat I would have to look that one up. but It says it(the Bible) I might not have number meorized chapter and verse, but the Holy Spirit lets me know what God says or does not say in The Bible, God's words are written on my heart

I can think of some texts that you could be thinking of....just none that particularly relate to the context of Proverbs.

 

[98cwitr]

Given that.
And given that there were temple guards to arrest people on the spot for that kind of behaviour then as well.

Im hard pressed to see what point is left in the post.

Let me ask this...why a whip? Could the same have not been achieved by other means?

 

[ebia]

Let me ask this...why a whip? Could the same have not been achieved by other means?

Why not a whip? Presumably one was at hand.

 

[Bluelion]

to address peter Tall

1 Peter 1.

Greetings from Peter
1 This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ.

I am writing to God’s chosen people who are living as foreigners in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.[a] 2 God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

May God give you more and more grace and peace.

The Hope of Eternal Life
3 All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by his great mercy that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Now we live with great expectation, 4 and we have a priceless inheritance—an inheritance that is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay. 5 And through your faith, God is protecting you by his power until you receive this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see.

6 So be truly glad. There is wonderful joy ahead, even though you must endure many trials for a little while. 7 These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.

8 You love him even though you have never seen him. Though you do not see him now, you trust him; and you rejoice with a glorious, inexpressible joy. 9 The reward for trusting him will be the salvation of your souls.

10 This salvation was something even the prophets wanted to know more about when they prophesied about this gracious salvation prepared for you. 11 They wondered what time or situation the Spirit of Christ within them was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ’s suffering and his great glory afterward.

12 They were told that their messages were not for themselves, but for you. And now this Good News has been announced to you by those who preached in the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. It is all so wonderful that even the angels are eagerly watching these things happen.

A Call to Holy Living
13 So prepare your minds for action and exercise self-control. Put all your hope in the gracious salvation that will come to you when Jesus Christ is revealed to the world. 14 So you must live as God’s obedient children. Don’t slip back into your old ways of living to satisfy your own desires. You didn’t know any better then. 15 But now you must be holy in everything you do, just as God who chose you is holy. 16 For the Scriptures say, “You must be holy because I am holy.”[c]

17 And remember that the heavenly Father to whom you pray has no favorites. He will judge or reward you according to what you do. So you must live in reverent fear of him during your time here as “temporary residents.” 18 For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And it was not paid with mere gold or silver, which lose their value. 19 It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. 20 God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but now in these last days he has been revealed for your sake.

21 Through Christ you have come to trust in God. And you have placed your faith and hope in God because he raised Christ from the dead and gave him great glory.

22 You were cleansed from your sins when you obeyed the truth, so now you must show sincere love to each other as brothers and sisters.[d] Love each other deeply with all your heart.[e]

23 For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God. 24 As the Scriptures say,

“People are like grass;
their beauty is like a flower in the field.
The grass withers and the flower fades.
25 But the word of the Lord remains forever.”[f]
And that word is the Good News that was preached to you.


Now Peter 2

2 So get rid of all evil behavior. Be done with all deceit, hypocrisy, jealousy, and all unkind speech. 2 Like newborn babies, you must crave pure spiritual milk so that you will grow into a full experience of salvation. Cry out for this nourishment, 3 now that you have had a taste of the Lord’s kindness.

Living Stones for God’s House
4 You are coming to Christ, who is the living cornerstone of God’s temple. He was rejected by people, but he was chosen by God for great honor.

5 And you are living stones that God is building into his spiritual temple. What’s more, you are his holy priests.[a] Through the mediation of Jesus Christ, you offer spiritual sacrifices that please God. 6 As the Scriptures say,

“I am placing a cornerstone in Jerusalem,
chosen for great honor,
and anyone who trusts in him
will never be disgraced.”[c]
7 Yes, you who trust him recognize the honor God has given him.[d] But for those who reject him,

“The stone that the builders rejected
has now become the cornerstone.”[e]
8 And,

“He is the stone that makes people stumble,
the rock that makes them fall.”[f]
They stumble because they do not obey God’s word, and so they meet the fate that was planned for them.

9 But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests,[g] a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.

10 “Once you had no identity as a people;
now you are God’s people.
Once you received no mercy;
now you have received God’s mercy.”[h]
11 Dear friends, I warn you as “temporary residents and foreigners” to keep away from worldly desires that wage war against your very souls. 12 Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world.

Respecting People in Authority
13 For the Lord’s sake, submit to all human authority—whether the king as head of state, 14 or the officials he has appointed. For the king has sent them to punish those who do wrong and to honor those who do right.

15 It is God’s will that your honorable lives should silence those ignorant people who make foolish accusations against you. 16 For you are free, yet you are God’s slaves, so don’t use your freedom as an excuse to do evil. 17 Respect everyone, and love the family of believers.[j] Fear God, and respect the king.

Slaves
18 You who are slaves must submit to your masters with all respect.[k] Do what they tell you—not only if they are kind and reasonable, but even if they are cruel. 19 For God is pleased when, conscious of his will, you patiently endure unjust treatment. 20 Of course, you get no credit for being patient if you are beaten for doing wrong. But if you suffer for doing good and endure it patiently, God is pleased with you.

21 For God called you to do good, even if it means suffering, just as Christ suffered[l] for you. He is your example, and you must follow in his steps.

22 He never sinned,
nor ever deceived anyone.[m]
23 He did not retaliate when he was insulted,
nor threaten revenge when he suffered.
He left his case in the hands of God,
who always judges fairly.
24 He personally carried our sins
in his body on the cross
so that we can be dead to sin
and live for what is right.
By his wounds
you are healed.
25 Once you were like sheep
who wandered away.
But now you have turned to your Shepherd,
the Guardian of your souls.

now Peter 3

1 Peter 3 New Living Translation (NLT)

Wives
3 In the same way, you wives must accept the authority of your husbands. Then, even if some refuse to obey the Good News, your godly lives will speak to them without any words. They will be won over 2 by observing your pure and reverent lives.

3 Don’t be concerned about the outward beauty of fancy hairstyles, expensive jewelry, or beautiful clothes. 4 You should clothe yourselves instead with the beauty that comes from within, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is so precious to God. 5 This is how the holy women of old made themselves beautiful. They put their trust in God and accepted the authority of their husbands. 6 For instance, Sarah obeyed her husband, Abraham, and called him her master. You are her daughters when you do what is right without fear of what your husbands might do.

Husbands
7 In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. Treat your wife with understanding as you live together. She may be weaker than you are, but she is your equal partner in God’s gift of new life. Treat her as you should so your prayers will not be hindered.

All Christians
8 Finally, all of you should be of one mind. Sympathize with each other. Love each other as brothers and sisters.[a] Be tenderhearted, and keep a humble attitude. 9 Don’t repay evil for evil. Don’t retaliate with insults when people insult you. Instead, pay them back with a blessing. That is what God has called you to do, and he will grant you his blessing. 10 For the Scriptures say,

“If you want to enjoy life
and see many happy days,
keep your tongue from speaking evil
and your lips from telling lies.
11 Turn away from evil and do good.
Search for peace, and work to maintain it.
12 The eyes of the Lord watch over those who do right,
and his ears are open to their prayers.
But the Lord turns his face
against those who do evil.”
Suffering for Doing Good
13 Now, who will want to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14 But even if you suffer for doing what is right, God will reward you for it. So don’t worry or be afraid of their threats. 15 Instead, you must worship Christ as Lord of your life. And if someone asks about your hope as a believer, always be ready to explain it. 16 But do this in a gentle and respectful way.[c] Keep your conscience clear. Then if people speak against you, they will be ashamed when they see what a good life you live because you belong to Christ. 17 Remember, it is better to suffer for doing good, if that is what God wants, than to suffer for doing wrong!

18 Christ suffered[d] for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.[e]

19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— 20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.[f] 21 And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from[g] a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

22 Now Christ has gone to heaven. He is seated in the place of honor next to God, and all the angels and authorities and powers accept his authority.


He is giving wisdom on how to live in this world. It is not about governments but about God and His children.

 

[JM]

I'd rather get a whipping than read through all this mess.

 

[Emmy]

Dear rdclmn7. When Jesus used the whip to turn over the tables and chase the moneylenders out of God`s House, it was righteous anger.
In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus gave us very good advice: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all
our minds. The second is like it: Love our neighbour as we love ourselves."
Jesus even points out: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." A Christian`s great weapon is LOVE. Who can deny that love works miracles? that love will always help us to achieve what is good for us?
God is Love, and God wants our Love, freely given and No tags attached.
We are told in Matthew 7: 7-10: " ask and ye shall receive," then thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour: all we know and all we meet,
friends and not friends. We keep asking God in Prayer, then thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour.
Love covers a multitude of Sins, and Paul gives us good advice in;
1) Corinthians 13: 13: and now abides:" Faith, Hope, and Love, but the greatest
of these is LOVE. " The Bible tells us: " Repent," and " Be Born Again."
We have to give up our selfish desires, and remember that God wants to:
Love God first, and love our neighbour as we love ourselves. Jesus our Saviour will help and guide us: JESUS IS THE WAY. It will not happen over night, but God wants us to be loving and caring men and women.
remember: " Ask and ye shall receive," God will give us what we need to become the sons and daughters which God wants us to become. We might
stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on
Loving and caring. I say this with love, rdclmn. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[standingtall]

I'd rather get a whipping than read through all this mess.

 

[98cwitr]

Why not a whip? Presumably one was at hand.

Actually the text says He had to literally make one out of cords...seems quite determined to use it if that be the case. Why not a whip? Why not a rod?

 

[tall73]

to address peter Tall


He is giving wisdom on how to live in this world. It is not about governments but about God and His children.

We agree his primary purpose is to explain to Christians how to live. He nonetheless does address the role of government, and it is the same as that which Paul states:

1Pe 2:13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,
1Pe 2:14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.


Do you believe that God gives government the role of punishing those who do wrong?

 

[tall73]

right because so many common folks dinned with the king of there land

Of course they did not often dine with the King, which is why they were advised on how to act when they did so. Nor does it limit it just to the King, but a ruler.

Also some see the book mainly for those being raised in the royal court, etc. But even if you take the other view the text stipulates from the outset that the person is sitting with a ruler:

Pro 23:1 When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee:

How can you say it is not speaking to someone sitting to eat with a ruler?

It seems to plainly say When thou sittest to eat with a ruler.

 

[tall73]

I can't show you anything The Holy Spirit has to show you. You and me come from two different places. It took the life I had and God to get me where I am, and how I see things. It's nothing I can show or teach, but is the work of The Holy Spirit.

Why are you speaking about me again when we agreed not to address each other but the topic?

 

[tall73]

Do you really think the passage is telling us not to eat to much in front of rulers? Like I said you aren't going to get it.

I think this is a smokescreen as this passage in no way makes the rod passage symbolic.

However, I am not the only one who holds this view of the text.

Here are quotes from a number of commentaries. I have not had a chance to look at the more recent commentaries, these were just those available online.




Adam Clarke Commentary

Verse 1

When thou sittest to eat with a ruler - When invited to the table of thy betters, eat moderately. Do not appear as if half starved at home. Eat not of delicacies to which thou art not accustomed; they are deceitful meat; they please, but they do not profit. They are pleasant to the sight, the taste, and the smell; but they are injurious to health. These are prudential cautions; and should be carefully observed by all who would avoid the conduct of a clown, and desire to pass for a well-bred man.

Verse 2

Put a knife to thy throat - Repress thy appetite, and do not be incontinent of speech. Eat, drink, and converse, under a check.



Bridgewater commentary:

Social-climbers and others (23:1-35)

Those who seek status like to mix with the upper classes and try to copy their habits. But because of their ignorance of how to eat fine foods, they make fools of themselves and so spoil their chances of progressing up the social ladder. The food they desire becomes the means of their downfall (23:1-3).


Ablert Barne's Notes

Verse 1

What is before thee - Beware lest dainties tempt thee to excess. Or, “consider diligently who is before thee,” the character and temper of the ruler who invites thee.
Verse 2

i. e., “Restrain thy appetite, eat as if the knife were at thy throat.” Others render the words “thou wilt put a knife to thy throat” etc., i. e., “indulgence at such a time may endanger thy very life.”
Verse 3

Dainties … deceitful meat - Such as “savory meat,” venison Genesis 27:4, offered not from genuine hospitality, but with some by-ends.



John Dummelow's Commentary


1. RV 'him that is before thee.' Do not excite his contempt.

2. Restrain your appetite.

3. He invites you for his own purposes.



Expository Notes of Dr. Thomas Constable

Verses 1-3

The point of this advice is to be humble and restrained in the presence of a prestigious host. The guest should put a knife to his throat rather than to his food (i.e., curb his appetite, control himself). [Note: Delitzsch, 2:104.]

"Threaten your appetite with death." [Note: Harris, p. 575.]

The fact that the host serves delicacies may not indicate that he esteems the guest highly. The host may simply be getting him in a good mood for his own selfish reasons. He may want something from him or be evaluating him. "What is before you" (Proverbs 23:1) is better than "who is before you." [Note: Waltke, "The Book . . .," pp. 237-38.]



Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

(1) Consider diligently what is before thee,—Rather, Who is before thee; that thy host is not an equal, but one who, if offended, might do thee deadly harm.


(2) And put a knife to thy throat.—Use the strongest methods to keep thine appetite in check, if thou art likely to give way to it, and then, overcome by meat and drink, to say or do anything to offend thy host.

(3) Deceitful meat.—Not offered out of friendship and love to thee; for an unguarded word spoken in the insecurity of the festive hour might bring ruin to thee.



Arno Gaebelein's Annotated Bible

The opening proverbs of this chapter treat of self-restraint in curbing the appetite and give manners to be observed in the presence of a superior.


G. Campbell Morgan's Exposition on the Whole Bible

When because of his diligence a man is admitted to the company of kings he should practice self-restraint.

Verse 1

When thou sittest to eat with a ruler,.... Either a supreme ruler, a king, or a subordinate ruler, a nobleman, a judge, a civil magistrate, a person of honour, dignity, and authority; and to sit at table with such is sometimes allowed, and is always reckoned an honour; this particularly diligent and industrious persons are admitted to, who not only are brought to stand before kings and great persons, but to sit at table with them, and eat food with them. And now the wise man advises such how to behave themselves when this is the case:

consider diligently what is before thee; or, "considering consider"F17: take special notice of the food and drink set upon the table, and consider well which may be most proper and safe to eat and drink of; for though a man may lawfully eat of whatsoever is set before him; every creature of God being good, if it be received with thanksgiving, and sanctified by the word of God and prayer; yet it is a piece of wisdom to make use of that which is most conducive to health, and less ensnaring; and to observe moderation in all, and not indulge to gluttony and drunkenness: and he should consider also who is before him, which sense the words wilt bear; the ruler that has invited him, and sits at the table with him, and take care that he says or does nothing that may give him offence; and also the noble personages that are guests with him, and behave towards them suitably to their rank and dignity; observe their words and conduct, and imitate the same; yea, even he should consider the servants and waiters that attend, lest, behaving in an indecent and disorderly manner, they should report it to his disadvantage to their ruler or others.



Geneva Study Bible:

Verse 1
When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, a consider diligently what [is] before thee:

(a) Eat with sobriety.

Verse 2
b And put a knife to thy throat, if thou [art] a man given to appetite.

(b) Bridle your appetite, as if by force and violence.

Verse 3
Be not desirous of his dainties: c for they [are] deceitful food.

(c) For often the rich when they bid their inferiors to their tables, it is not for the love they bear them, but for their own secret purposes.


Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

Verse 1

When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee:

When thou sittest to eat with a ruler (taking up Proverbs 22:29, end), consider diligently what (food or dainty) is before thee - so as not to eat greedily, or boldly and familiarly, as if thou wast at home Piscator, etc., take it, 'consider ... who is before thee'-namely, the king and his courtiers; thou shouldst be reverent, and on thy guard against giving offence. In the most ancient times they sat at meals as we do, not lay on couches as in later times (Genesis 37:25; 1 Samuel 20:5). At eating time one is tempted to be off one's guard.
Verse 2

And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite.

And put a knife to thy throat, if thou (be) a man given to appetite - restrain thy gluttony as it were with a knife applied to thy throat (cf. Psalms 39:1). It is better to put a knife to thy throat, so as to keep thyself in fear the whole time of the banquet, than by want of self-restraint to fall into excess.



Selected portions of Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament (I did not include the Hebrew Grammarical discussion for clarify).


Consider well him whom thou hast before thee, viz., that he is not thine equal, but one higher, who can destroy thee as well as be useful to thee.


“Put a knife to thy throat, is a proverbial expression, like our: the knife stands at his throat; the poet means to say: restrain thy too eager desire by means of the strongest threatening of danger - threaten as it were death to it” (quoting Fleischer)


The knife thus denotes the restraining and moderating of too good an appetite.

Food which, as it were, deceives him who eats it, i.e., appears to secure for him the lasting favour of princes, and often enough herein deceives him; cf. the proverb by Burckhardt and Meidani: whoever eats of the sultan's soup burns his lips, even though it may be after a length of time (Fleischer). One must come near to a king, says Calovius, hitting the meaning of the proverb, as to a fire: not too near, lest he be burned; nor too remote, so that he may be warmed therewith.



The Popular Commentary by Paul E. Kretzmann

v. 1. When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, with a person of influence and power, consider diligently what is before thee, keeping in mind throughout the dinner that it is a mightier and loftier one at whose invitation one is present,

v. 2. and put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite, keeping the usual gluttonous appetite in leash by the strongest warnings and threats, restraining the least sign of self-indulgence.

v. 3. Be not desirous of his dainties, craving the finest food on the table; for they are deceitful meat, literally, "bread of deception," it is a deceptive meal, the object of the powerful person not being to dispense free hospitality, but to make use of his guest in some manner.



Proverbs Bible Study Commentary

A ruler does not invite you so that you can taste his fine food. He invites you because he wants to discuss serious matters with you. You should not think much about his food or his wine. But you must think about your words. Your advice must be good. You need to speak wise words.
Solomon uses humour in verse 2. Normally you place your knife near your plate. But Solomon jokes that your knife should be near your neck. In your imagination, hold your knife there to warn you. Then you will remember that your life is short. You will remember not to be greedy. And you will remember to advise the ruler wisely.
Solomon continues his advice in verse 3. Be careful if an important person invites you to a special meal. He could want you to do something for him.



Commentary on the Book of Proverbs by Moses Stuart

The danger from a keen appetite, with attractive viands set before it, is obvious. A man will almost of course feed gluttonously; and so doing, he will degrade himself, for he will appear like a starveling, in the eyes of the ruler.

 

[tall73]

The following arguments have been red herrings:

1. Eating a a king's table:

Your assertion was to call into question whether striking with a rod was literal because an earlier proverb used a phrase that was something other than literal. This is a distraction, not an argument that the rod passage is something other than literal.

Since this is wisdom literature, a collection of proverbs, it does not follow that most of the material will be symbolic, such as in Apocalyptic, etc. The genre does not demand it is symbolic. And since they are individual proverbs there is no rule that one parable which uses a symbolic phrase makes all the other parables in that chapter somehow symbolic. Each must be looked at on its own merits.

Therefore the discussion of eating at the king's table is a red herring, not on topic for the conversation. You would need to show that the striking with the rod itself was not literal.



2. Role of government:

You have already admitted that the government has a role in punishing wrong-doers, and that parents have a role in punishing their children.

God puts people in power to punish the wicked. He tells us keep the Laws of the Land, but if some one takes us to court He tells us settle it before court, and if we are sued and shirt taken give our coat too. We are to forgive, it is not our job to punish. With children it is our job, however, it does not need to be done with force.

So the on-going debate about the role of government is also a distraction. You have already admitted the main points.


3. That I am trying to put people under the Mosaic law, and am under the curse of the law.

It has no impact at all on the spanking discussion, and is a distraction from it. Moreover, I have never suggested we should be under the mosaic law.

However, the question here that is legitimate, and which you have not answered, is why the only law that God ever gave to rule a nation included physical force as a punishment if God never does such?

One does not have to endorse a return to the Mosaic law to ask that question.



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