Spanking

[LiberatedChick]

Fact of the matter is that country differences will get into these discussions. It's not a case of "my country has this policy so I'll follow like a sheep". It's a case of "my country has this policy and I believe this policy is right because I'm one of those that helped this policy come into being in the first place!". We mold our countries and our countries mold us.

Personally, I don't believe that the "rod" actually means "rod". I've said before and I'll say it again that there is a phrase that says about "ruling with an iron rod". It does not mean that you go around hitting people. I see a lot of metaphors in the Bible and I believe this is one of them. Not to mention that I've read around on this to discover that most "rod" references occur in the book of Proverbs written by Solomon and that it can be assumed these were his disciplinary tactics and that they didn't exactly stop his son from turning out bad.

I also believe that we are meant to follow the law of our land and if my land bans smacking with implements, smacking that causes lasting harm or even bans smacking all together then I shall comply with that.

 

[alaskamolly]

I see a lot of metaphors in the Bible and I believe this is one of them.

Which is certainly your right to believe and I won't try and change your mind, however my question was not whether or not you feel it is metaphorical. It was rather, if you DO feel it metaphorical, then why do you think God choose to use a metaphor such as this (in both Old and New Testament, and also in regards to His own treatment of His children), if spanking is supposedly always abusive?



Warm Regards,
Molly

 

[LiberatedChick]

Which is certainly your right to believe and I won't try and change your mind, however my question was not whether or not you feel it is metaphorical. It was rather, if you DO feel it metaphorical, then why do you think God choose to use a metaphor such as this (in both Old and New Testament, and also in regards to His own treatment of His children), if spanking is supposedly always abusive?
Warm Regards,
Molly

I don't believe it is a reference to just spanking. I see it as a reference to discipline generally. Children require discipline, they need rules and they need people to enforce them. I was reading an Alpha course book a few months ago and one story the author included was when he was asked to referee a childrens football match. He didn't no all the rules and how to enforce them properly, so the children had no rules to play by and the match descended into chaos and the children hated it. The guy that was supposed to be refereeing in the first place came back and took over, rules were put in place and enforced, the children played along and had a wonderful time. So discipline is needed. However, some parents find it hard to discipline their children. Some may even think it's a cruel thing to do whatever method is used. This, for me, is where the rod comes in. A rod has defined edges, it's hard and softer things can be molded to fit it's shape. What the Bible says to me is that disciplining our children is required, not only that but like a rod, rules need to be defined. It may be hard for us to do or we may feel it's hard for the children. Either way childrens lives are molded to follow these rules and they are enforced. So I don't believe that God has said that spanking is abusive...but I don't believe that he has said that spanking is the way to discipline either. We still need to discipline though however, we base our opinions on what we know. I know that my country is/has been considering banning smacking, I know that smacking affected me as a child and my relationship with my parents and not in a good way and I know that my husband would never use and want me to use smacking as a form of discipline. Therefore to me it's something that feels wrong and so I shall not use it and instead will use other methods to discipline our children.

 

[mojorising]

My son is only four months, but it's not in our plan to include spanking in discipline later. I never was spanked...mom just had to give me that "look", although i got pinched a few times in church. I want him to respond to the tone of my voice, but I'll be careful with my words.

 

[BibleMinnie]

I think that you have to know your child and know what works for your child. Like now I have a 10 month old son who started walking at 8 months and so he now likes to open the cupboards and the oven and I wont allow it because he will hurt hisself. Now I try to pop him on his hands but he doesnt care, so now I put him in his highchair with nothing to do and he goes crazy because he loves to play. SO then I explain to him that he will not come back here if he listens. But sometimes I do believe that a spanking is neccessary, and I think you know when they have learned there lesson. Hope that helped some.

 

[mumofone]

To all parents who are wondering whether to spank or not, i can tell you it depends on the child - spanking worked on me but not on my brother.

I have spanked my daughter before (she is now 7) and she still receives one now if she deserves it.

What i will do is warn her, then if she stops - great, if not i tell her again and send her to her room, if she refuses to go or does it again I take her into the kitchen, explain what she's done wrong, put her over my lap and spank her with a wooden spoon.

After which i tell her that i love her and that i do it because i care.

she hardly ever has to be spanked now and she has remarkable manners and always behaves in public.

however this may not be the case - some kids don't respond this way.

Just my two cents worth.

 

[ChrisCountryGirl]

I don't believe in spanking a child.

I was spanked when I was a child. It didn't do me any good. Now, as an adult, I'm "fearful" of the world, hardly make conversations with anyone, spend most of my time alone with my pets. I remember, as a teen, I was angry towards my parents and did something that I could of gotten in "BIG TROUBLE" but never got caught. I just pray that God forgives me for what I was trying to do. I felt like a "black sheep" in the family. My parents treated my 3 younger siblings like they were "perfect angels", especially my brother who was the youngest & only boy.

So, all I'm saying if you do spank, use it as a LAST resort.

 

[progressivegal]

There is a great chapter in "What to expect during the toddler years" about this, I can highly HIGHLY recomend reading it. http://www.amazon.com/Expect-Toddle...=pd_bbs_1/002-9840614-0244810?ie=UTF8&s=books

 

[evensongcalms]

I think it's very important to discuss this subject.I was punished physically as a child but it was more in the form of a physical attack than a punishment.It was also unpredictable and out of all proportion to what I had done.I had provoked my mother but all it required was a sharp command.As a result I've always been more concerned with how spanking is carried out than with whether it's right or not,which may be because, frightening though it was,it was the closest I ever felt to her.
I believe the inportant things with spanking are
(1) that a child knows beforehand what will earn it such a punishment
(2) that when carried out it is done calmly,with clear explanation and with a strong reminder that the child is as strongly loved and valued as ever,and that it is the behaviour that is disapproved of,not the child.

Anger is the biggest problem in my experience and must never enter into such a situation.As always the Bible,whilst appearing to favour spanking, firmly warns against excessive use of it.

 

[Melbelle]

My Son is very hard headed and spanking his is about the only thing that works, its either spanking at him or yelling to get over him, that works but takes to much out of me, threating doesnt work, he is stuborn. I've always believed in spanking, but I also believe it doesnt always work on every child. I'm guilty of spanking when angry but most the time I explane to him why I have to spank him.

 

[hisbloodformysins]

Hi I have a few questions about spanking. I am a parent struggling to discipline my children. I discipline in love not anger.

Here are my questions.

1. Should a hand or object be used? What object do you use to administer a spanking? If you find it more effective- I've heard you should use a fly swater, I've considered using a wooden spoon

2. Should it be done over clothing or bare bottom? Some say it's more effective bare bottom. Whatever works. My son doesn't always feel my spanks and I find it more effective to do it on bare bottom at times.... usually my daughter requires spanking at diaper change so her bottom is bare and it doesn't take much to get the point across

3. How many swats should be given? When do you stop the spanking? Whatever is appropriate. If they are in big trouble I'll give 3 swats, and for my daughter to get the point across I'll give her one quick swat, if that isn't effective I'll give her another that is a little harder.

4. What do you do if they try and kick and get away during a spanking? When they kick I spank more until they are what I call "broke", my daughter kicks at diaper change at times, which is the main reason why she's getting the spanking, and if once doesn't work, I'll swat her again, and then again. My son hasn't always taken my spanking seriously and has at times hit me back, I spank him again, and again harder until he stops being defiant.. resistant and cries. I guess I'm showing him who's boss.


Hope some good chrisitan parents can help Hmmm, well, that is something that you won't just know about people, even those with the best faces on the outside can turn out to be crummy parents behind closed doors... that is something hard to judge. You need to decide for yourself how well you like the advice.... so that you can feel good about it in your own conscience.

Thanks

Kim

Your welcome!

HB

 

[CrystalBrooke]

1. I don't believe that any objects should be used
2. That's iffy, I remember as a child hardly feeling some of my spankings through my clothing...if spanking through clothing seems ineffective, then spank them on the bare bottom.
3. No more than 3 swats should be given IMO
4. I suppose you should stop spanking them and ask why they are behaving that way, if they continue to act up, spank them again.

 

[CrystalBrooke]

I don't belive that smacking children is the right way to go about things there are so many different ways of punishment. Like time out. In the uk you don't get a way with smacking your kids.

Time outs don't always work, sometimes nothing else works. My little brother has been talked to, had privaleges taken away, been grounded from everything, had time outs, made to do extra chores..ect...you name it my parents probably did it with him, he responds to spankings and spankings only. If nothing else works for a child what do you suggest the parents do?

 

[hisbloodformysins]

I think spanking works! But it has to be done out of love. When I got spanked I knew it wasn't just because I deserved it, but because my parents loved me.

This is how spankings where handled at my house.

If I disobeyed or was defiant mom (mom usually did all the spanking) would tell me to wait in my room. It gave her some time to cool off and it gave me time to think about what I did. After a few minutes she would come in with the paddle. She would sit with me and we would talk about what I did wrong. She made sure I knew why I was going to be spanked. She would also tell me that she needed to spank me because proverbs 23:13-14 says "Do not withhold discipline from a child; If you punish him with the rod he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death. Then she would lean me over her lap and give me my spanks, She went by age, when I was eight I got eight spanks. How hard depended on the offence. Then she would tell she loved me and she forgived me then we would hug and move on.

I think thats how spankings should be administerd. It worked for me and my sisters. When I have kids I will discipline them the same way.

I know other people who feel the same way...
But I can't help but think that after all that talking, what's the point?

HB

 

[bliz]

I believe it was Orson Wells who wrote that the first man to raise his fist, was the first one to run out of ideas.

I think that the same thing is true in parenting. We turn to physically striking our children when we don't know what else to do. There are other options besides yell or hit. This book helped me discover a number of them:

The book contains sample conversations and cartoons detailing how a conversation can go. I thought some of them seemed a little stupid, but when I tried them - they worked!!!

Out of love for our kids, as we strive to be like Christ, I think we must try and be the very best parent we can be for our children. To me, the includes trying new approaches.

 

[hisbloodformysins]

I'm reading through the responses now because I'm interested myself in the input given, and I want to add yet another comment.....

I am usually angry when I spank, and honestly I don't see anything wrong with that AND I have a hard time believing people are honest when they say they aren't angry, they may have calmed down, but i personally see spanking as an "immediate" consequence. There have been times when hubby and I have taken the time to discuss punishment for a serious offense of my sons that usually had to do with his or someone else's safety, and the consequence ended up being a loss of a privledge dear to him for a day, and once a week. He is 5 now. But we only took the time to discuss it because these were serious matters and we turned it into learning a learning experiance. I see spanking as "immediate feedback" and sort of necessary for young children. I don't always resort to spanking, only when "I" feel it's called for, and it's hard to describe exactly what that entails, most of the time I use standing in the corner.... anyways, back to my point....

Yes, I'm angry because the behavior they are doing is wrong. However, someone said something that holds truth... it's important that you be in control. If I wasn't angry about the act, there would be no motivation to spank, and I think anger is sort of a God given tool to help me gage the necessity of the consequence, with some common sense if you get what I mean. It's anger that motivates us all to stick up for ourselves and sometimes it's necessary to get angry about something to make some necessary changes, this is sort of what I'm talking about as far as punishment goes. I can see the point of other people taking time out before spanking, and praying..... but I don't think that spanking would always be the appropriate consequence. My bil always prays, makes his kids pray, then lines them up and spanks them, including his 15 year old daughter... I'd think that consequence would get a little old....

HB

 

[hisbloodformysins]

No, but the law says that if you hit an adult, it's assault. Why is it okay to hit a child?


How does hitting them make them comprehend something that they aren't able to comprehend?


True. And common sense also tells me that many parents are just control freaks and reprimand their children for just being children. I've worked with the public for many years of my life, and I've seen loads of parents who have unrealistic expectations of how children should behave. They arrive at a restaurant or doctor's office with no snacks and no toys, and then yell at the kid for being cranky or playing with the salt shaker. Most of the children I've seen taken into the restroom for a "talking to" were just being kids and weren't doing anything harmful..... they were just doing something their parents found personally annoying and were spanked for it.


Well, I guess I'm in the minority. I want my child to do what's right because it's right.... not because he fears authority. I don't want to break his will, and I don't want to "train" him. Kids who are trained to *not* think for themselves will grow up to be people who are taken advantage of and exploited. It's unrealistic, IMO, to expect a child to do what they're told for 18 years, then expect them to be good decision makers. Natural and/or logical consequences are the best teachers.


I've met many a devout Christian who are less than wise. Many are sheep who don't question anything.

I'm going to ask a question that you might find offensive, but is not meant to be offensive.... do you have kids? Because by reading your post it seems apparent to me you do not.

I not only have kids, but I work with kids, in a psychiatric (or you could say "behavioral problem") institution, and we have children of all ages, from little kids to adolescents. The one unit most people dread working the most is the childrens unit (meaning ages 3-10) because it is very hard to control those kids. The difference is that with teenagers you can take logical approaches, but with kids, you cannot. It's their developemental stage, in child education you learn that up to the age of 10 (If I remember correctly) kids are incapable developmentally of thinking outside their selves, they literally believe the world revolves around them and parents with such knowledge wouldn't shame kids for that by saying "you think the world revolves around you" like my mother did, yes, they do, it's because they are kids and are not mature like adults yet (some adults anyways ) So no, kids will not do things simply because they are "right". I think the bible is clear on that as well, they are not capable at that age. And the reason why spankings make so much sense is because, it's like dealing with a pet or animal.... it's consistancy. If you pop a child on the bottom every time they do a certain behavior, they will eventually learn that "hey, when I do this, I experiance this pain"... and that is what works... forget using logic with kids, or with people in general, we learn through pain, even adults... we learn through natural consequences.... (this is not true with children, forget that rule with them..... they are very carnal, as carnal as a human being can get...) they learn through what we teach them. It sounds to me like you are encourging a passive parenting approach, though you may not realize it. What you propose sounds great, but it's not reality for children. They don't have a sense of morals at that young of an age. To an extent maybe, if you have an extraordinary child, but they mostly learn by what they see you do, and what you teach them.

Oh, I wanted to add, I lean towards that book "1,2,3 magic"... I count to 3, and if they haven't complied by then, they get a spanking (though I don't think the book encourages spanking). Most of the time they are so learned by this that by the time I get to 3 they comply. My 2 year old is still in training and I often have to follow through and spank her, but my son complies as soon as I start at one so like someone else says, if you are consistant with the method you use, you get to the point of having to use it less and less.

HB

 

[hisbloodformysins]

With respect, I'd have to almost completely disagree with you. In my history discipline equaled punishment. If you were disciplined that’s what it meant – you were punished. I didn’t realize that in God’s eyes discipline did not equal punishment. Discipline equals correction, which is a very different thing altogether.


Most parents who spank do so because of their inability to come up with anything else. Spanking is a tool available as a form of discipline. But most parents use it as their primary tool, and their arsenal of discipline can be counted on one hand. How sad is that? Most of us had to learn/train/or be taught in our chosen professions. Yet many of us think good parenting 'is in the blood'.

Most of the time, we do spank because we're stupid and uncreative. Because we're not willing to learn, or too lazy might be more accurate, to learn. I don't see to many dads having a 'how to' book on parenting, although I have seen 'how to fish, make a shed, fix your car' books on their shelves.


Excuse me? What was God's response to our willful disobedience? When God so loved the world, was the world behaving properly? Was the world in obedience? So what was God's response? Took away our freedom? Beat us severely? Sent us to our room?

God so loved the world that He gave. We need to learn the God-method of discipline – and it will be difficult to do because it does not make sense to the natural mind, but we need to learn to discipline through giving. Instead of taking my son and putting him in his room, but taking my son and having a few words of correction and about what the problem was, and then taking him to watch a movie. And I found that mercy triumphs over judgment every time. I found that grace will change more things than punishment ever will. And most people do not come to salvation because of the threat of God’s punishment, they come because of the enticement of God’s grace. And it’s grace that changed our lives.


That's because we parents are stupid and uncreative. Let's not be quick to blame the kids. They're counting on us to instill God's laws in their hearts. If we as parents do our jobs properly, we wouldn't have as many spoiled brats today as we do.



Taking things away is not the proper Biblical response. See above. Yes, it is the traditional response that most of us have been brought up by. But just looking at the rebelliousness of even our Christian kids should be enough to be cognizant that there has to be a better way.

In God's eyes discipline means pain for our greater good, which is ultimately why most of us discipline with whatever method we use...

HB

 

[bliz]

Originally Posted by Hatsumi
No, but the law says that if you hit an adult, it's assault. Why is it okay to hit a child?


How does hitting them make them comprehend something that they aren't able to comprehend?


True. And common sense also tells me that many parents are just control freaks and reprimand their children for just being children. I've worked with the public for many years of my life, and I've seen loads of parents who have unrealistic expectations of how children should behave. They arrive at a restaurant or doctor's office with no snacks and no toys, and then yell at the kid for being cranky or playing with the salt shaker. Most of the children I've seen taken into the restroom for a "talking to" were just being kids and weren't doing anything harmful..... they were just doing something their parents found personally annoying and were spanked for it.


Well, I guess I'm in the minority. I want my child to do what's right because it's right.... not because he fears authority. I don't want to break his will, and I don't want to "train" him. Kids who are trained to *not* think for themselves will grow up to be people who are taken advantage of and exploited. It's unrealistic, IMO, to expect a child to do what they're told for 18 years, then expect them to be good decision makers. Natural and/or logical consequences are the best teachers.


I've met many a devout Christian who are less than wise. Many are sheep who don't question anything.

I'm going to ask a question that you might find offensive, but is not meant to be offensive.... do you have kids? Because by reading your post it seems apparent to me you do not.

Well, Hisbloodformysins, I am a parent and my kids are just a little younger than you, and I think that Hatsumi;s post makes a great deal of sense and reflects a lot of the experience we had raising our kids.

Children can learn to love righteousness and choose to do that which is right.

 

[Katydid]

I have 4 children. And, it wasn't until this fourth one, and the stages that my other 3 were going through, that really showed me that spanking is actually the least effective, least loving act that I could take. First off, it taught nothing except to hide from mommy while misbehaving, secondly, no matter how "right" I did spank, it STILL made them feel unloved. I have difficult children, not one of them is easy to handle. Not one of them is easy going. They are all different in their own ways, and all present their own unique challenges, but NONE OF THEM responded to spanking, as well as they responded to other forms of discipline.

And, children under 10 (not over 2 or 3) CAN and DO understand that the world does not revolve around them. They CAN and DO learn from natural consequences. They CAN and DO learn from logical consequences. So, though they may not be able to LOGICALLY comprehend the WHY's of a situation, they do understand cause and effect.