• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Soul Sleep?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by savinggrc, Aug 28, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. savinggrc

    savinggrc Guest

    +0
    How many of you guys believe in this doctrine? And where do you see it in the Bible? :)
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    I'm not sure what I believe in this. My most recent study has led me to believe we are truly with the Lord in spirit (as our spirits can not sleep but are eternal), and we wait to be reunited with our glorified bodies at the Last Day.
     
  3. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    It's interesting that you have found our spirits to be eternal. Looking in the Old Testament, "spirit" is translated from two Hebrew words, neshamah and ruach. Neshamah is defined as "breath", and is called "breath" in eleven texts. The word ruach is defined as "wind". It is called "breath" 28 times, and "spirit" 232 times.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7: "The dust shall return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it."

    Also in the Old Testament, three Hebrew words, nedibah, nephesh, and neshamah, are translated "soul" in our English versions.

    The word nedibah is found only one time, in Job 30:15. It is defined as: "willing, liberal, or noble one".

    Nephesh occurs more than seven hundred times in the Old Testament. It is translated "soul" 428 times, "life" 119, "person" 30, "self" 19, "mind" 15, and some other words from one to nine times each. In all its uses, it refers to the individual with active life. Throughout the Bible, "soul" means "life", and in each place, if we were to call it life, we would have a clearer meaning of what the soul really is.

    Neshamah is defined "breath", and eleven times it is called "breath". In other uses it is "blast", "inspiration", or "spirit".

    Man himself is a soul: he became a living soul as soon as God breathed into his nostrils. Before Adam breathed, he was only a molded form of dust. (Genesis 2:7). The family of Jacob numbered seventy souls (Genesis 46:27).

    It would seem that you are using spirit and soul interchangeably. "Spirit" is the ruach or air that man quits breathing at death, and which goes back to God who gave it. "Soul" is from nephesh, meaning "life". "Spirit" and "life" are not used interchangeably, although one cannot exist without the other; life cannot continue without air. When the breath is taken away, life ceases, we no longer breathe.

    So what scriptures have you found that says our "spirits" are eternal?
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I don't believe in soul sleep. let me explain what I do believe. Okay, this might be a little hard to understand. To be absent from the body it to be with God..well when death comes and you go "to heaven" you are no longer confined by time..hence when you die you "go" to the endpoint of all time and hence the judgement and you are with God.
     
  5. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    LouisBooth,

    You're correct in it not being "soul sleep". When you die, you have no knowledge of anything. I guess it could be more like "suspended animation", except that the body decays.
    Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    So what happens is you close your eyes in death, and then the next thing you know it is the resurrection. You have no knowledge of time passing. Seconds, or hundreds of years may have passed between those two points, but you don't know it.
     
  6. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I disagree a little with you synapsis on it. I don't think you "close" your eyes at all..you become outside time....its a science thing I guess...I think that verse might be a little out of context because you will have memories in heaven. It is written that you will recognize people.
     
  7. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    I'm not sure why you think this verse is taken out of context. We are talking about what happens when you die.

    What scripture do you have that supports going to heaven at death?
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Paul has written that to be absend from the body is to be with God. I would say that the OT was different because that was not the case..but because jesus came now that is true.
     
  9. savinggrc

    savinggrc Guest

    +0
    I agree Louis, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. IMO, I think it's always been that way. I believe too much is made of the paradise thing. Folks who were believers - in the Christ to come - went to be with God just as do believers now.

    drmmjr,

    I don't see why you think that for the spirit to go back to where it came from makes it non-existent?!? We came from God, if we're saved, we go back to Him. The two are not mutually exclusive.

    Karen
     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Folks who were believers - in the Christ to come - went to be with God just as do believers now."

    hmm..I'm not too sure about that. I'm still meshing through all that because to me that's really low on the ladder as far as its not really docterine and not really something I could use to evangilize :lol: It is written that he "stormed" the gates and set the captives free is it not? maybe we should open a new tread saving...
     
  11. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian

    As I have shown in a post above, the "spirit" is just the breath of life.

    Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. - KJV
    Ecclesiastes 12:7: The dust shall return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it. - KJV


    There is nothing that says this "spirit" or breath is anything living. It's simply the air that we breath. If we stop breathing, we stop living.

    Where does it say in scriptures that we have an immortal soul, or immortal spirit? It doesn't.
     
  12. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Where does it say in scriptures that we have an immortal soul, or immortal spirit? It doesn't."

    We will be with God for eternity..that sounds like immortal to me ;) we didn't come from God, we weren't pre-exsistant.
     
  13. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +21
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    drmmjr,

    THe "Breath" that we are talking about here in reference to the Spirit, is not Air. It isn't a breath as in using my lungs to breathe in and out. Scripture states that it is the Breath of God.

    Big difference there, between air and the Breath of God.
     
  14. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    ZoneChaos,

    Reading Genesis, it says:
    Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. - KJV

    God breathed the breath of life. Yes is was His breath, but it is still air. What keeps us alive? The air that we breath in. If we cease to take in air, we die.

    As you have seen in my earlier post, "spirit" is derived from the Hebrew word that means "breath".

    When we die and God "takes back" this breath of life, is it our essence? Is it what make up our thoughts? No, it is what makes this body made from dust, live. Take away the breath and what do you have. Just a pile of dust.
    Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

    God brought these two things together and we became alive. Man has not been able to cause this to happen. When we bring a pile of dust and breath together, we get a face full of dust.

    What does the breath of God mean to you?
     
  15. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +21
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    How far will you break this down? Does a person not recieve a spirit until after birth? Does a fetus not have a spirit? If so, then is a spirit then not air, but elements like oxygen?

    Or maybe our spirit is not air, but it is something else. Maybe the Breath of God is not air, but is something else... something supernatural, we can't explain.

    [quoter]and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life[/quote]

    I think Genesis here is written iun such a way as to show that this "breath of life" is something more than air.. something special, something of God, something supernatural. First it says God breathed, but then clarifys to the reader what God breathed. Id does this to show that what God breathed was special and unique.



    What do you base this on?



    This verse you are using to supoprt your view on breath does not talk about breath.. why use it?



    Yes it is, for it is eternal. Physical air we breath in and out everyday cannot be our spriirt, or what makes out spirit becasue it is not eternal. God will destroy it. But our spirit will still exst, thus air cannot comprise our spirit, or our spirit would not be eternal.
     
  16. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian

    What scripture are you using to define an eternal spirit? If we had an eternal spirit, then why would God have placed the cherubims to guard the Tree of Life in the garden (Genesis 3:22-24), why would the gift of God be eternal life (John 3:16).

    If we are already eternal, then why would we need to be resurrected?
     
  17. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +21
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican


    Well, the entire book of revelation for one.

    Don't confuse Eternal life with Eternal existance. Everyone will exist for eternity. Iether in heaven and in the presence of God (eternal Life), or oin Hell, cut off from the presence of God (Eternal Death).



    After the first sin, man was no longer perfect. If man had eaten of the tree of life, in that imperfect state, he would live eternally as an imperfect creation. God had to first give us a way to become perfect once again, and then He gives us the gift of eternal life.



    Again, don't confuse life with existance. Those who suffer in Hell, for eternity will be dead, but they will be aware of their death. That is the horror of an eternal death. Being sperate from GOd, being without life, and being aware of it, forever.



    God will ressurect our mortal bodies and change them to immortal, ones. We will then have our new Glorified bodies, and we will once agian be perfect in God's eyes as we were meant to be.
     
  18. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +21
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Here are scriptures that strongly suggest man's continued self-awareness and continued existence after death:

    Luke 16:19-31 "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

    2 Cor. 5:6-8 "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord"

    Phil. 1:22-23 "But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:"
     
  19. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    Luke 16:19-31 is a parable meant to show the Jews how they wouldn't believe the truth that Jesus brought. They wouldn't hear the prophets in the past, why would they listen to Jesus now. In fact, they wouldn't even listen to one who would be raised from the dead.



    Perhaps more of 2 Corinthians chapter 5 should be read. Paul is speaking of how we need to put worldly things (things of the body) that we are comfortable with aside. We need to concentrate on doing the things the Lord would have us to do. Look at verse 6 - Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:. Does this mean that while we are in our bodies we do not have the Lord? I would hope not.

    Again, perhaps more of the chapter should be studied. Paul says that whether in life or in death, he wants to glorify Christ.

    But if we go to some heavenly place at death, then why is death called the enemy. 1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

    If we are in a heavenly place at death, why would we need to have our old bodies resurrected. Why once again restrict ourselves to a body, especially if we could do what ever we wanted without it.
     
  20. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    well I disagree about how you say about the verse in 2 cor. i think it is saying we are not in the presence of the father physically as moses was. He saw God. That is exacly why the next verse says we live on faith. look at the next verse ;) Oh and what do you say to the verses that say our we will become imperishable..ie not perishing..this is another way to say we will have everlasting life. Some verses even metion everlasting life ;) We will be eternally with God ;)

    "Why once again restrict ourselves to a body, especially if we could do what ever we wanted without it. "

    Ahh...good question. Because man is ment to have a physical side. If you look in genesis the spirit didn't exsist until God made the body and put spirit in it. Its a kind of duality...
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...