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Soul Sleep?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by savinggrc, Aug 28, 2001.

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  1. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    More verses I found.. and a couple repeated with better explinations.



    Phil. 1:21-24--"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain…But I am hardpressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake."
    Paul says when he dies it is gain, that he departs, and that he is with Christ which is very much better. If Paul believed in "soul sleep," then he should have wished that he could live for over a hundred years on earth so he could keep ministering. But the benefit of dying is to be immediately with Christ, which is "very much better" than remaining on earth. He couldn't have said this if he believed in "soul sleep." Paul also used the word "departure" (the departing of his spirit to heaven) in 2 Tim. 4:6, referring to his death.

    2 Cor. 5:6,8-9--"…while at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him."
    Paul is again speaking of his inner man leaving his body at death to be with the Lord. He also said he preferred to be absent from his body so he could be with Jesus. Notice he said we could only be "at home or absent," not in an in-between state like soul sleep.

    Matt. 22:31-32--"But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
    Jesus revealed that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not dead, but living. Their bodies had died, but their souls and spirits were alive awaiting the resurrection of their bodies.

    Luke 23:43--When Jesus was dying on the cross He said to the thief, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in paradise."
    The Jehovah's Witnesses cult moves to comma to make it read, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with me in Paradise." They change the Bible to fit "soul sleep"!

    The phrase "Truly (Verily) I say unto you" is recorded over 70 times in the gospels, but not once "Truly I say unto you today." The thief knew that Jesus was talking to him that day, what he needed to know was when he would be with Him in paradise.

    Which makes more sense? "Johnny, I am telling you the truth today, I am taking you to the zoo" or "Johnny, I am telling you the truth, today I am taking you to the zoo." Johnny needs to know what day he is going to the zoo, not what day you are talking to him! The meaning is without question: Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise that day.

    Matt. 17:3-4--Moses and Elijah talked with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. Moses had been dead for a long time (Dt. 34:5) and Elijah was caught up alive to heaven. Moses wasn't soul-sleeping.
    Luke 16:19-31--The Rich man and Lazarus. When the poor man Lazarus died he was "carried away by the angels" to Abraham's bosom (paradise). When the rich man died he went to Hades (hell) and was in torment. He was able to carry on a conversation with Abraham, who was on the other side of the chasm (v.26).
    Abraham, who lived before Moses and the Prophets, told the rich man that his five brothers had "Moses and the Prophets" so the rich man and Lazarus lived after these books had been written. This clearly proves consciousness beyond the grave of people who lived during different times on earth. Those who believe in soul-sleep try to dismiss this verse saying it is "just a parable." Even if it were a "just a parable" (which it isn't), Jesus always taught parables to illustrate truth. These verses are clear: No soul-sleep.

    James 2:26--"…the body without the spirit is dead…"
    Heb. 9:27--"It is appointed for men to die once, and after this comes judgment."
    It doesn't say that soul-sleep is in between.

    Acts 7:54-60--As Stephen was dying, he prayed for Jesus to receive his spirit. Jesus was in heaven (vv.55-56).
    1 Thess. 4:13-18--"…even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus…and the dead in Christ will rise first…"
    When Jesus returns at the Rapture, He will bring with Him the spirits of those Christians who have already died and their bodies will be resurrected.

    2 Peter 2:4-9--"…then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment."
    The unrighteous are being punished in hell right now.

    Jude 4-13--Just as some of the fallen angels are now under eternal punishment, so the wicked are suffering the same punishment (v.7).
    Heb. 12:22-23--These verses tell us who is inhabiting heaven right now. Included are "the general assembly and the church of the firstborn" (New Testament saints) and "the spirits of righteous men made perfect" (Old Testament saints).
    Rev. 6:9-11--This occurs in heaven: The souls of those who have been slain ask God to judge those on earth who have killed them. Verse 11 informs them that there are more on earth that will die.
    Rev. 20:4--John sees the souls of those who had died and they received their resurrection bodies and reigned with Christ.
    Matt. 10:28--"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both the soul and body in hell."
    There is a difference between killing the body and killing the soul. The first is physical death; the second is spiritual death or the second death (Rev. 20:6, 12-15).

    John 11:25-26--"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die."
    For the believer, we continue to live even though the body may die because our spirits will never die.

    Luke 8:49-55--The girl had died and Jesus said, "She has not died, but is asleep." Her body fell asleep at death. When He brought her back to life, "her spirit returned" and she rose up (v.55).
    Gen. 35:18--Rachel died and her soul departed.
    Eccl. 9:5--"…but the dead do not know anything…"
    A dead body doesn't know anything. Solomon is speaking from earth's perspective, for life "under the sun" (9:3, 6, 9, 11, 13). Later in the book he explains what happens at death, "the dust will return to the earth as it was (body), and the spirit will return to God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7).

    Psalm 146:3-4--In speaking of death: his spirit departs, he (body) returns to the earth.
     
  2. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

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    If our spirit departs at death, then why do the dead not know anything. Do we become stupid at death?
     
  3. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

    This passage is just saying that life isn't fair in sorts. it is not saying we are stupid when we die. Why not check the NT references, for they seem to give more light to what the "afterlife" is like. When Jesus spoke on the woman marrying three times he addresses the poine that we will know each other in heaven ;)
     
  4. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Yeah.. what she said.. ;)
     
  5. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    she who?
     
  6. newcreation

    newcreation Guest

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    Friends,

    Eternal life is the same as immortality.

    5But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who "will render to each one according to his deeds":[1] 7eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Rom.2:5-7

    The apostle Paul knew the story of Lazerus. He knew about Elijah and Enoch. He must have interpreted these things different from todays Christians. Why?

    15which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen. 1 Tim. 6:15-16

    He taught that ONLY YASHUA has IMMORTALITY. If he only is immortal no one else is. That's what makes the RESURRECTION one of the foundation doctrines of the faith.
    Instant immortality at death is not mentioned in Heb.6.
     
  7. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

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    That has been my point all along. When you die, you don't get the gift of eternal life (become immortal) until the resurrection at the Second Coming of Jesus.

    Someone mentioned Lazarus and the girl that Jesus raised from the dead, and how their spirits came back from heaven to their bodies. Well, it would seem to me, that if they had been in heaven, they would have "pitched a fit" at being brought back to this world and bodies.

    Think about it. God has a gift that He is going to give those who believe that Jesus died for their sins. The gift is eternal life. Now, if you were promised a gift for doing something good, and were given the gift, only to have it taken back because it wasn't time to give you the gift; wouldn't you be upset at having it taken from you. Especially when you saw and felt how good it was.
     
  8. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Two things.. where do you find that immortality equates to eternal life, and are we talking about the body or soul here?
     
  9. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    This assumes that these are the same thing. And, if they were, this would rule out another main tennant of Christinaity: Eternal Death. If immortality, of the soul, is equated with eternal life, then that would mean that eternal death could not exist, else, how is a soul supposed to be eternally tormented in death without the ability to exist immortally? Maybe immortalkity is the worng wor dhere.. maybe we need a word like permenent or a word that means a "permanent existance". Thus, the soul, not having recieved eternal life, will still have a permenent existance (one that the soul is aware of) in death.
     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Maybe immortalkity is the worng wor dhere.. maybe we need a word like permenent or a word that means a "permanent existance". "

    I got a word for ya ;) imperishable..its biblical ..hehehe
     
  11. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Aye that is the word I was looking for.. immortal is so.. "fleshy" ;)
     
  12. newcreation

    newcreation Guest

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    The wages of sin is DEATH. Death is eternal in that it is the cessetion of life. It is NOT immortality in hell. mike
     
  13. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    That is why I said immortality is the wrong word here. a person sufferingn in hell, is not alive, but that person does still exist.
     
  14. Habakkuk3

    Habakkuk3 Guest

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    mebbe someone DREAMED IT -- get it -- DREAMED IT?

    Ha

    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    ha hah
     
  15. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

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    I guess that when you speak of hell, you speak of where those who are not written in the Lamb's book of life will be sent after judgement.
    If the person exists, but is not alive, how will they know they are suffering?

    And what about the following scripture:
    Looks like those who are judged unworthy will be utterly consumed and destroyed.
     
  16. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    No, i just assumed that if I used the word hell, others would understand what I meant: the place souls currently are (from the point of view that there is no soul sleep) that are not with God.

    As far as the mechanics of it? No clue. But the Bible says that those who are cast out of God's presence forever will be aware of their sufering. They do not have life, they have death, but they are aware. They will know they are not in the presence of God, and will know it forever, and that will be the most horrific torment of all.

    As far as the passage you wrote, you can interpret it as saying that those judged unworthy will have their souls destroyed (wiped out of existance), but the interpretation would be wrong, becasue it would contradict Revelation.

    Malachi is talking about the end of the physical world as it exists today. Malachi prophisies about the end times and the second coming of Christ. These verses depict a small part of what wil hapen to the earth at the end of the seven years. God, the second time around (first being flood) will consume the earth in fire. This is also in Revelation. What Malachi is talking about is very real, and very physical.

    Physically, yes, but this verse says nothing of their souls.
     
  17. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

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    What is a soul? Leviticus 5:1,2,and 4 says, "If a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity. Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle ... he also shall be unclean ... Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good ... then he shall be guilty." In this passage the question, "Can a soul sin?" is answered, for we read, "If a soul sin ... then he shall bear his iniquity." What is a soul? In this passage, the soul could hear, could be a witness, could see, could understand, could touch, could swear with his lips, and could sin. What does this describe? This describes a person.
    It is quite clear then, that according to the Bible, a soul can die. It is stated in James 5:19,20, "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." We can save a soul or person from death, the second death, by converting him from sin to the righteousness of Christ. But if that person is not converted to Christ, he shall die. This is plainly stated in Ezekiel 18:4 and 20, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Only after our sins are forgiven do we receive the promises of everlasting life and escape from the lake of fire, which is the second death.
     
  18. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    That part of us that makes us more than mortal. The part of us that will exist beyond out earthly bodies.

    Yes it does. The Bible uses the word soul in many ways to depict man, both in the pjysical and spiritual world.

    Only if you limit your voew of what the soul is to the particular view stated above in your post. And, wether the souls can die or not, this is different than it ceasing to exist.

    In death, the soul still exists.

    This second death, which is eternal, is not finite to the existance of the soul, only finite is the state of the soul. Once the souls has been judged, and not found in the lambs book of life, it will enter a finite state of existance, unchanging, this state of existance is death. NOw, in this state of existance it will exist eternaly, both daed and aware being dead.
     
  19. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    umm...good discussion..but ya'll are on another topic...open a new thread?
     
  20. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

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    I thought the topic was about souls?
     
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