Someone Please Explain Olive Tree Theology

[Dave-W]

https://kehilanews.com/2016/05/04/video-romans-11-explained/

 

[Luke17:37]

Yes Hades is not the same place as the lake of fire so those verses aren't correct to use to prove the fate of those in the lake of fire.




If they are alive then you think they escaped the second death. I believe the second death is exactly what it says, a death.

Heb_12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

G2654
?ata?a??´s??
katanalisko¯
kat-an-al-is'-ko
From G2596 and G355; to consume utterly: - consume.

compare that to this:


Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

G622
a?p?´???µ?
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.


Both speak about fire which can fully destroy/consume something...the fire of a star is very hot, but that man can recreate the same temperatures in welding makes me think the fire of "hell" is something far stronger/hotter.




Fire represents a destructive force. This lake of fire won't be normal fire as we can create ourselves. I believe it to be God himself since God is a consuming fire. So God can create something, and can uncreate something as well. I believe the lake of fire is simply an uncreating process described in a way simple so people could understand it's basic function- destruction.



There was a time none of us existed. God has decided that the bad, wicked, evil etc etc of us should return to that non-existence. There is a fire which is unlike any fire man knows which will be used to destroy souls which essentially and definitively uncreates them.

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.




There is only one kind of eternal life, and that is with God as overcomers judged to life. Those judged to death on judgment day, which is called the second death, will not have eternal life in hell or torment. Their punishment is death and that punishment will last for all eternity. They shall not live eternally in agony because they shall not have eternal life of any kind.




Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Don't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal:

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah uses similar language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.

Another example:

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.


Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns forever but this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal. Remember that this fire isn't actual fire. The word fire is used because it's the closest way for us to have any chance to understand the destructive nature and result of this "fire".



And look at how many scriptures refute the idea of eternal life in hell fire:



"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28

"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20

Judgment is a decision to reward or punish someone. The judgement/punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 21:8), and that judgement/punishment is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2). So, eternal punishment is an eternal death.



Two things happen to the wicked. First they will die the second death which means soul and body dies and then their soul and body shall be destroyed.


Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Here we have death of the soul likened to destruction of the soul. One cannot be destroyed without dying so the two go hand in hand. While the Greek word here can mean several things, we know from other scriptures esp. the OT which has only one meaning for "destruction" being literal destruction, that this word here means:

apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1)to destroy
1a)to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1)to destroy
1b)render useless
1c)to kill
1d)to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and the base of G3639
Citing in TDNT: 1:394, 67





Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.


This also relates the death of the wicked to their complete destruction/consumation as well as death.




Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.


H8045
????
sha^mad
BDB Definition:
1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to be annihilated, be exterminated
1a2) to be destroyed, be devastated
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to annihilate, exterminate
1b2) to destroy
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2406






Lets use the same logic some apply. We know that our preservation by the Lord shall be eternal, known as salvation or eternal life then the opposite for the wicked would be eternal death and destruction right? Not to be preserved to suffer eternal torture!



Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.



Here the same concept. All sinners judged and consumed at the same time which cannot be anything other than the final judgement.




The punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 20, 21), and that judgement/decision (also called damnation) is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2).


Psalms 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:



Some teach that God will not do as he says.


Psalms 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
Psalms 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
Psalms 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psalms 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Do they perish, consumed away in smoke or do they live forever in torture?? Scripture is clear!


Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.


Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.


Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

Isaiah 1:29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.
Isaiah 1:30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.
Isaiah 1:31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.



2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;



Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Jeremiah 6:27 I have set thee for a tower and a fortress among my people, that thou mayest know and try their way.
Jeremiah 6:28 They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.
Jeremiah 6:29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.
Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.

Why are they wicked?

Jeremiah 6:27 I have set thee for a tower and a fortress among my people, that thou mayest know and try their way.
Jeremiah 6:28 They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.
Jeremiah 6:29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.
Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.





They are corrupt and God has rejected them.





Psalms 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
Psalms 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
Psalms 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psalms 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.



The righteous ones will be saved but those unrighteous will be consumed away.


2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

They wouldn't receive the truth to be saved so they shall be destroyed!

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



Those that had pleasure in unrighteousness and received not the truth shall perish and be damned.






Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2851&t=KJV

1) correction, punishment, penalty

The lexicon there says the word punishment in this verse means "correction, punishment, penalty" not firery torment. As I have been saying, the kind of "correction, punishment, penalty" inflicted is unnamed in this verse but is given many places elsewhere as both death and destruction.



The righteous are not sinless but they repent and love God and believe upon Christ and that is counted righteous and though all are wicked in some sense, it is only those who love unrighteousness, who do not love God, who don't repent and don't follow Christ that shall be destroyed.


Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.



The way to destruction is wide and many will be destroyed. FEW will find the way to life. Read it more than once if you don't believe this. Christ said it and it is true.

Wow, you put a lot of energy into that post. I can appreciate that; however, I still don't agree with you that the living beings who are thrown into the Lake of Fire will cease to exist. I guess I read the Bible a little more literally than you. If the rich man is tortured in a hot place (Hades) before the Great Throne Judgment, it doesn't follow that afterwards he will be so burned in the fire that he cease to exist. That would bring relief. I'm pretty sure Lazarus and the rich man is a parable, but the principles Jesus taught, including the unabated fire and the torment a person can never get out of--these are real. Besides, Hades and the people in it are thrown in the Lake of Fire so that parable is still relevant.

Mark 9:43-47
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—44 where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—46 where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire—48 where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

 

[Luke17:37]

Why did you quote this? Do you think this is the second death in the lake of fire?

Luke 16:23-24
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

Revelation 20:14-15
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

The torture of Hades is described in Luke, and then Hades (and the people who were in it) are cast into the Lake of Fire. If the fire and torture is unabated in Hades, why should those stop in the Lake of Fire?

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

I wasn't expecting this thread to get so many responses

Anyway, from further studying this topic, I have come to the conclusion that Paul is speaking of Spiritual or Remnant Israel and the Church is grafted into it.

However, God still has plans for national Israel.

 

[dfw69]

No, it's eternal death meaning no life for eternity.

Why resurrect only to kill them again?.. Just to judge them and put them back to sleep? Makes no sense

 

[Luke17:37]

Death means no more animation. That means no more body, no more breathing, no more hearing, no more seeing, no more anything physical. The torment that is gone through is the knowledge that one has made a terrible mistake and could be living eternally with God but is now consigned to never being with God. You have a very flawed perception of what torment connotes in the Bible.

Eternal torment is exactly what the Bible teaches. You and ewq1938 make the second death pretty palatable. How could the second death be better than Hades? It's not. The dead are raised to have a physical and spiritual body, too, before they're thrown into the Lake of Fire (John 5:29). I'm signing off of the eternal death debate. I cannot agree with you.

 

[parousia70]

Eternal torment is exactly what the Bible teaches. You and ewq1938 make the second death pretty palatable. How could the second death be better than Hades? It's not. The dead are raised to have a physical and spiritual body, too, before they're thrown into the Lake of Fire (John 5:29). I'm signing off of the eternal death debate. I cannot agree with you.

So Sin and Suffering will exist forever? They are never completely eradicated?

 

[parousia70]

Well seeing as I'm not the OP, then maybe you're confusing me with the OP? You may want to read what I posted over again and then re-ask your question, because I'm pretty sure I haven't contradicted myself. Also if you're going to quote me please do it properly and don't quote something that I didn't write.

Oops, my bad. I apologize

 

[parousia70]

I wasn't expecting this thread to get so many responses

Anyway, from further studying this topic, I have come to the conclusion that Paul is speaking of Spiritual or Remnant Israel and the Church is grafted into it.

However, God still has plans for national Israel.

The Church IS the plan for "National Israel" as you put it. Always has been, always will be.

It existed all the way back in Moses' time. (Acts 7:38). The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

The apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect of Israel (at first all Jewish but later with converts added in to their numbers) are the true elect ones (2 Tim 2:10; Col 3:12; Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ).

The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

The Church is Covenant Judaism gone global.

There is no Israel apart from Christ.

 

[ebedmelech]

Hello!

In Romans 11, Paul compares Israel to an olive tree with natural branches and branches that have been grafted in to replace natural branches that have been cut off due to their unbelief.

Now Paul is obviously referring to Israel. It seems from chapter 11 that Israel or ethnic Jews were the branches cut off from the tree due to unbelief so that the Gentiles could be grafted in.

However, Paul says that if the natural branches do not cotinuebin their unbelief, thet will be grafted back in.

My question is this: What role does ethnic Israel and national Israel play in this and in the end times? Will the nation of Israel end up with a Christian majority?

I'm going to try to show you what Paul is saying here in Romans 11...BUT...one cannot get his message of Romans 11 if you don't recall what Paul has said throughout Romans.

The point Paul makes in Romans 11, starts out with Paul telling us God has NOT totally cast off ethnic Israel. God will save a remnant of them also, and it's by God's gracious choice! This is the point of Romans 11:1-6.

Would you agree with that point?

 

[Isaacsname]

Well, the first mistake is thinking that the Bible refers to the country of Israel, when it doesn't

 

[Job8]

I don't believe pre-tribulation rapture is in the Bible. I believe in a post-Tribulation Resurrection Gathering at the return of Christ.

There is no such thing as a post-Tribulation Resurrection Gathering. Immediately after the Great Tribulation, there are cataclysmic cosmic events, followed by the Second Coming of Christ WITH His saints and angels. That could only be possible if the Resurrection/Rapture had already occurred, and the Marriage of the Lamb had already taken place as described in Revelation 19. Thus a pre-Tribulation Rapture is a necessity.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:29,30).

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Revelation 1:7).

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Revelation 19:14).

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 14,15).

 

[StanJ]

Eternal torment is exactly what the Bible teaches. You and ewq1938 make the second death pretty palatable. How could the second death be better than Hades? It's not. The dead are raised to have a physical and spiritual body, too, before they're thrown into the Lake of Fire (John 5:29). I'm signing off of the eternal death debate. I cannot agree with you.

The dead are raised for judgement. But if you're not going to accept what the Bible says about them being thrown in the Satan and his angels to be tormented forever in Jesus's own words then I really can't help you anymore.

 

[StanJ]

Why resurrect only to kill them again?.. Just to judge them and put them back to sleep? Makes no sense

I think it's a big mistake to ever use our own human rationale to try to understand what I got does anything. That's when we get into bad territory and start judging God based on our own human evaluations.

 

[Luke17:37]

There is no such thing as a post-Tribulation Resurrection Gathering. Immediately after the Great Tribulation, there are cataclysmic cosmic events, followed by the Second Coming of Christ WITH His saints and angels. That could only be possible if the Resurrection/Rapture had already occurred, and the Marriage of the Lamb had already taken place as described in Revelation 19. Thus a pre-Tribulation Rapture is a necessity.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:29,30).

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Revelation 1:7).

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Revelation 19:14).

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 14,15).

You don't think these saints that come with Jesus are dead in Christ who have risen in the clouds? I do. It says as much in 1 Thessalonians 4:14.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

 

[parousia70]

Well, the first mistake is thinking that the Bible refers to the country of Israel, when it doesn't

It certainly never refers to today's multi ethnic, secular, democratic, nation state of Israel, that's for sure.

Biblically, Israel is defined by COVENANT.
There are only ONE group of Citizens of Today's Modern Israel that are in covenant with the living God.
The Christians.

 

[Isaacsname]

That's right, Parousia

There are some major misunderstandings about " the promised land " in scripture, it's really kind of sad

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

I'm going to try to show you what Paul is saying here in Romans 11...BUT...one cannot get his message of Romans 11 if you don't recall what Paul has said throughout Romans.

The point Paul makes in Romans 11, starts out with Paul telling us God has NOT totally cast off ethnic Israel. God will save a remnant of them also, and it's by God's gracious choice! This is the point of Romans 11:1-6.

Would you agree with that point?

Yes I would.

 

[parousia70]

The Remnant WAS Saved.
The Jewish Sect of the Nazarenes, of whom Paul was a "ringleader" was that Remnant.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

It's a spiritual mountain not like earth made up of dirt but another substance a spiritual substance ... I don't thing God and Jesus and the Angels are just floating in space ... Jesus literally sits at the right hand of the father on his throne ... Why would Jesus say seek heavenly things if there is nothing to seek after in heaven ?

Well, the Bible says in heaven there are gold streets! So maybe there are mountains of gold dust.(just letting my imagination have a little fun y'all, don't trip)