Someone Please Explain Olive Tree Theology

[ewq1938]

The second Death is eternal separation

No, it's eternal death meaning no life for eternity.

 

[Luke17:37]

Is it death or torture? Which one does Scripture say it is?

The second death isn't like sleeping and it isn't ceasing to exist. It's a real place. People are conscious. It's extremely painful. It lasts forever. We don't want people to go there.

Luke 16:22-24
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

Revelation 14:10-11
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

 

[Luke17:37]

No, it's eternal death meaning no life for eternity.

Jesus is eternal life (John 1:4, John 11:25, John 14:6, John 17:3, 1 John 5:11-13). If we have Jesus, we have eternal life. If we don't have Jesus, we get eternal death. The wages of sin is death (we earned it). Eternal death or the second death is separation from God forever in a place of torment called the Lake of Fire.

 

[ewq1938]

The second death isn't like sleeping and it isn't ceasing to exist. It's a real place. People are conscious. It's extremely painful. It lasts forever. We don't want people to go there.

Luke 16:22-24
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

Why did you quote this? Do you think this is the second death in the lake of fire?

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus is eternal life (John 1:4, John 11:25, John 14:6, John 17:3, 1 John 5:11-13). If we have Jesus, we have eternal life. If we don't have Jesus, we get eternal death. The wages of sin is death (we earned it). Eternal death or the second death is separation from God forever in a place of torment called the Lake of Fire.

Anyone that claims people are alive in the lake of fire do not believe in the second death because life is not death.

 

[Luke17:37]

Why did you quote this? Do you think this is the second death in the lake of fire?

Jesus was showing (in Luke 16) that those outside of Christ face eternal torment in a real place. Besides, Hades (and the people who live there) will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Anyone that claims people are alive in the lake of fire do not believe in the second death because life is not death.

Well, we disagree. I can hardly call eternal conscious torment apart from God "life."

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus was showing (in Luke 16) that those outside of Christ face eternal torment in a real place. Besides, Hades (and the people who live there) will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Yes Hades is not the same place as the lake of fire so those verses aren't correct to use to prove the fate of those in the lake of fire.

Well, we disagree. I can hardly call eternal conscious torment apart from God "life."

If they are alive then you think they escaped the second death. I believe the second death is exactly what it says, a death.

Heb_12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

G2654
?ata?a??´s??
katanalisko¯
kat-an-al-is'-ko
From G2596 and G355; to consume utterly: - consume.

compare that to this:


Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

G622
a?p?´???µ?
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.


Both speak about fire which can fully destroy/consume something...the fire of a star is very hot, but that man can recreate the same temperatures in welding makes me think the fire of "hell" is something far stronger/hotter.




Fire represents a destructive force. This lake of fire won't be normal fire as we can create ourselves. I believe it to be God himself since God is a consuming fire. So God can create something, and can uncreate something as well. I believe the lake of fire is simply an uncreating process described in a way simple so people could understand it's basic function- destruction.



There was a time none of us existed. God has decided that the bad, wicked, evil etc etc of us should return to that non-existence. There is a fire which is unlike any fire man knows which will be used to destroy souls which essentially and definitively uncreates them.

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.




There is only one kind of eternal life, and that is with God as overcomers judged to life. Those judged to death on judgment day, which is called the second death, will not have eternal life in hell or torment. Their punishment is death and that punishment will last for all eternity. They shall not live eternally in agony because they shall not have eternal life of any kind.




Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Don't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal:

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah uses similar language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.

Another example:

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.


Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns forever but this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal. Remember that this fire isn't actual fire. The word fire is used because it's the closest way for us to have any chance to understand the destructive nature and result of this "fire".



And look at how many scriptures refute the idea of eternal life in hell fire:



"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28

"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20

Judgment is a decision to reward or punish someone. The judgement/punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 21:8), and that judgement/punishment is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2). So, eternal punishment is an eternal death.



Two things happen to the wicked. First they will die the second death which means soul and body dies and then their soul and body shall be destroyed.


Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Here we have death of the soul likened to destruction of the soul. One cannot be destroyed without dying so the two go hand in hand. While the Greek word here can mean several things, we know from other scriptures esp. the OT which has only one meaning for "destruction" being literal destruction, that this word here means:

apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1)to destroy
1a)to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1)to destroy
1b)render useless
1c)to kill
1d)to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and the base of G3639
Citing in TDNT: 1:394, 67





Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.


This also relates the death of the wicked to their complete destruction/consumation as well as death.




Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.


H8045
????
sha^mad
BDB Definition:
1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to be annihilated, be exterminated
1a2) to be destroyed, be devastated
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to annihilate, exterminate
1b2) to destroy
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2406






Lets use the same logic some apply. We know that our preservation by the Lord shall be eternal, known as salvation or eternal life then the opposite for the wicked would be eternal death and destruction right? Not to be preserved to suffer eternal torture!



Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.



Here the same concept. All sinners judged and consumed at the same time which cannot be anything other than the final judgement.




The punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 20, 21), and that judgement/decision (also called damnation) is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2).


Psalms 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:



Some teach that God will not do as he says.


Psalms 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
Psalms 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
Psalms 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psalms 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Do they perish, consumed away in smoke or do they live forever in torture?? Scripture is clear!


Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.


Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.


Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

Isaiah 1:29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.
Isaiah 1:30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.
Isaiah 1:31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.



2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;



Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Jeremiah 6:27 I have set thee for a tower and a fortress among my people, that thou mayest know and try their way.
Jeremiah 6:28 They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.
Jeremiah 6:29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.
Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.

Why are they wicked?

Jeremiah 6:27 I have set thee for a tower and a fortress among my people, that thou mayest know and try their way.
Jeremiah 6:28 They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.
Jeremiah 6:29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.
Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.





They are corrupt and God has rejected them.





Psalms 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
Psalms 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
Psalms 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psalms 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.



The righteous ones will be saved but those unrighteous will be consumed away.


2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

They wouldn't receive the truth to be saved so they shall be destroyed!

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



Those that had pleasure in unrighteousness and received not the truth shall perish and be damned.






Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2851&t=KJV

1) correction, punishment, penalty

The lexicon there says the word punishment in this verse means "correction, punishment, penalty" not firery torment. As I have been saying, the kind of "correction, punishment, penalty" inflicted is unnamed in this verse but is given many places elsewhere as both death and destruction.



The righteous are not sinless but they repent and love God and believe upon Christ and that is counted righteous and though all are wicked in some sense, it is only those who love unrighteousness, who do not love God, who don't repent and don't follow Christ that shall be destroyed.


Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.



The way to destruction is wide and many will be destroyed. FEW will find the way to life. Read it more than once if you don't believe this. Christ said it and it is true.

 

[StanJ]

Yes I sure do

Heaven has many things ... New Jerusalem is built in heaven.. There is a mountain and a throne and a temple ..a sea of glass ...I don't think heaven is much different than earth just spiritual and invisible to the eye

You do know Revelation was a vision right?

 

[StanJ]

It's a spiritual mountain not like earth made up of dirt but another substance a spiritual substance ... I don't thing God and Jesus and the Angels are just floating in space ... Jesus literally sits at the right hand of the father on his throne ... Why would Jesus say seek heavenly things if there is nothing to seek after in heaven ?

OK, first I suggest you study Hebrews 8 to see what actually is in heaven, and secondly study the difference between symbolic hyperbole and metaphorical descriptions. You're taking things way too literally in your view of scripture. Just as the Bible says 'we wrestle not against flesh and blood', the same thing applies when reading scripture in terms of spiritual significance.

 

[StanJ]

The second death isn't like sleeping and it isn't ceasing to exist. It's a real place. People are conscious. It's extremely painful. It lasts forever. We don't want people to go there.

Death means no more animation. That means no more body, no more breathing, no more hearing, no more seeing, no more anything physical. The torment that is gone through is the knowledge that one has made a terrible mistake and could be living eternally with God but is now consigned to never being with God. You have a very flawed perception of what torment connotes in the Bible.

 

[StanJ]

If they are alive then you think they escaped the second death. I believe the second death is exactly what it says, a death.

The word death in the Bible only ever relates to the body. When you try to assign death to the soul you're not using it properly.

Lake of Fire is the symbolic metaphor it is not place of physical existence. It is a place of spiritual separation from God and that in and of itself is the cause of our torment. The Bible does not convey that is a place of torture or that it is a place of pain.

 

[StanJ]

Man... I just realized this thread is about the Olive Tree. Maybe we can get back on topic? How did I get sucked down this Rabbit Trail?

 

[ewq1938]

The word death in the Bible only ever relates to the body. When you try to assign death to the soul you're not using it properly.

That's incorrect.

Jas_5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

The Bible does not convey that is a place of torture or that it is a place of pain.

We agree here.

 

[ewq1938]

Man... I just realized this thread is about the Olive Tree. Maybe we can get back on topic? How did I get sucked down this Rabbit Trail?

It's related....those broken off for unbelief will go to the lake of fire if they remain in unbelief.

 

[StanJ]

That's incorrect.
Jas_5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

This is why I really don't like the King James version. Too many people really don't understand what Elizabethan English really means In today's vernacular.
James 5:20 (NIV)
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

 

[StanJ]

It's related....those broken off for unbelief will go to the lake of fire if they remain in unbelief.

Oh! Phew!

 

[ewq1938]

This is why I really don't like the King James version. Too many people really don't understand what Elizabethan English really means In today's vernacular.
James 5:20 (NIV)
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

That translation doesn't conflict what the one I posted.

Souls can face death. It's known as the second death.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[StanJ]

That translation doesn't conflict what the one I posted.
Souls can face death. It's known as the second death.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It indeed does because the verse you quoted connoted an actual living person like when Airlines say Souls on Board they mean people or when SOS was broadcast it meant people, not metaphysical beings.
Matthew 10:28 is not a whole lot different than what Jesus was conveying to his cousin Lazarus' sisters in John 11. Death for a Believer is not a permanent position, it is temporary, but as a non-believer that death is permanent and therefore the life that consisted of the body and soul is destroyed, never to be reunited into a living being.

 

[ewq1938]

It indeed does because the verse you quoted connoted an actual living person like when Airlines say Souls on Board they mean people or when SOS was broadcast it meant people, not metaphysical beings.

Not so much on the verses posted in the post you are quoting huh? Humans can kill the body but not the soul...but God can.....oops.

The soul can die, it's known as the second death where body, soul and spirit die.

 

[StanJ]

Not so much on the verses posted in the post you are quoting huh? Humans can kill the body but not the soul...but God can.....oops.
The soul can die, it's known as the second death where body, soul and spirit die.

Actually I did deal with that part of the verse. When God destroys the body and soul it's because he separates them permanently. Man can only kill the body but if that body is a Believer it will be reunited at the resurrection with the soul. A non-believer will never be reunited with its soul.
I'll show you a different way.
Matt 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"
Rev 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Hopefully you will see that this is a metaphorical state and that it depicts separation from God. Nobody actually dies there because they're already dead. All of these spirits exist for eternity separated from God. Now unless you believe that a Spirit can be destroyed by burning sulfur or even affected by burning sulfur then you have to understand this is metaphorical and does not relate to actual death of the body.