Some honest answers please...

[lesliedellow]

Thanks to those pastors though, they got saved and on their way to Heaven ... right?

How does that work, if somebody has lost their faith, because of them?

To quote one:
I remember vividly the "holy crap, I've been lied to!" feeling I had when I was exposed to the evidence for evolution in college and grad school.

As it happens, that one didn't lose his faith, but it is no thanks to his pastor that he didn't.

 

[AV1611VET]

Lol

I'd like to see a survey done on those who claim they were once Christians and now aren't, with the following simple question:

Were you a bus kid or a church kid (or neither)?

My guess is that 90% of them will claim they were bus kids.

 

[AV1611VET]

How does that work, if somebody has lost their faith, because of them?

It's simple.

Pastor John leads Joe to Christ.

Joe later goes to college and takes a course in Geology 101.

Joe deconverts.

Joe dies and goes to Heaven.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh, please ... who do you think you're talking to, LOL?

I've never once heard a person that honest in my life.

Usually I get:

"I deconverted because I had questions my pastor couldn't answer, and he told me to just accept it and keep my mouth shut."

"I deconverted because I read the Bible all the way through."

"I deconverted because the Bible says one thing, and reality says another."

It's easy to honestly tell me why others deconverted isn't it?

It's a different story to honestly tell me why you deconverted though ... right?

You did not understand. I explained how and why Christians are "saved". There was nothing about the "deconversion" process in that post.

 

[AV1611VET]

You did not understand. I explained how and why Christians are "saved". There was nothing about the "deconversion" process in that post.

Sorry. I misread your post.

 

[AV1611VET]

Because they have a fear of death. A fear of death is a natural reaction. Sadly some people find false means to deal with it. For example those claiming to be "saved". They are still afraid of death, but at least it is no longer overpowering for them.

And how does science alleviate this 'natural reaction'?

 

[lesliedellow]

It's simple.

Pastor John leads Joe to Christ.

Joe later goes to college and takes a course in Geology 101.

Joe deconverts.

Joe dies and goes to Heaven.

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. (Ezek 18.24)

 

[EpiscipalMe]

Thanks to those pastors though, they got saved and on their way to Heaven ... right?

Not to mention ...

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Tell me, leslie, if you have the courage to:

Which of these two types of pastors here are you referring to?

This kind?

Jeremiah 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Or this kind?

Jeremiah 23:4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.

And while you won't answer that ... see if you'll not answer this also:

What did God use to gather the remnant of His flock with (verse 3)? science?

Those are some good quotes from scripture. Years ago I attended a couple of different conservative evangelical churches. The literalist/creationist kind. They were destroying my faith.

Then, I went back to my childhood roots in the Episcopal Church, where questions and debate are welcome. People feel free to interpret Genesis as allegory and see no conflict with the salvation message of Jesus. Now, I have stronger faith than I ever did.

So, if those creationist pastors were leading me away from God, and the Episcopal Church brought me back to God, how does that fit with the scripture you posted?

 

[AV1611VET]

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. (Ezek 18.24)

Okay ... so he gets a treehouse in Heaven, while others get a mansion.

It's better than Hell, is it not?

 

[Subduction Zone]

And how does science alleviate this 'natural reaction'?

It doesn't. Except to make one realize that we will die some day. General maturity is what enables people to deal with this fear.

 

[HitchSlap]

I'd like to see a survey done on those who claim they were once Christians and now aren't, with the following simple question:

Were you a bus kid or a church kid (or neither)?

My guess is that 90% of them will claim they were bus kids.

What's a bus kid?

 

[lesliedellow]

Okay ... so he gets a treehouse in Heaven, while others get a mansion.

It's better than Hell, is it not?

That is not what it says, and you know it - unless you are even more in need of reading glasses than usual.

 

[AV1611VET]

Those are some good quotes from scripture. Years ago I attended a couple of different conservative evangelical churches. The literalist/creationist kind. They were destroying my faith.

What faith?

Your saving faith? or your progressive sanctification?

They can't destroy your saving faith:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Not even you, yourself, can "jump out" of His hand:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In fact ... it's impossible:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Why is it impossible?

Because to do so ... as the verse says ... you would have to put Jesus to an open shame, if you later change your mind and go for renewal.

And God is not going to let that happen.

So rather than let you go completely, He will create a win-win situation by keeping His son's reputation intact, and you out of the fire.

Oh, sure.

Anyone can go around like he's some BMOC and claim he's no longer in a relationship with Jesus Christ ... and somehow he turned in his address on Gold Street for an address on Decay Boulevard.

But the fact of the matter is:

If he was truly saved in the first place, he's in for a rude disappointment.

He's going to find out he's going to have to spend all eternity with the One who ordered all those men, women, and children slaughtered ... or who is responsible for "natural abortions" ... or who deceived everyone with trilobites too far down in the rock layers ... and so on and so forth.

 

[AV1611VET]

What's a bus kid?

You know ... bus kid.

Step Dad: Hey, Margaret, put this whiny kid on that bus that goes by on Sunday and let's have a couple hours of peace and quiet around here!
Margaret: But it's that Baptist bus!
Step Dad: I don't care if it's a Mormon bus! Give him someplace to go for a couple hours! I'm ... in the mood (wink, wink).

 

[AV1611VET]

That is not what it says, and you know it - unless you are even more in need of reading glasses than usual.

Then I'm in more need of reading glasses than usual.

 

[lesliedellow]

In fact ... it's impossible:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

That passage is a warning, and a serious one; it does not say what you are trying to make it say. Its general thrust is the same as that from Ezekiel, only a more stark one.

 

[AV1611VET]

That passage is a warning, and a serious one; it does not say what you are trying to make it say. Its general thrust is the same as that from Ezekiel, only more stark.

You keep believing that and you might end up a Cal...

Oh, wait!

Nevermind.

 

[HitchSlap]

You know ... bus kid.

Step Dad: Hey, Margaret, put this whiny kid on that bus that goes by on Sunday and let's have a couple hours of peace and quiet around here!
Margaret: But it's that Baptist bus!
Step Dad: I don't care if it's a Mormon bus! Give him someplace to go for a couple hours! I'm ... in the mood (wink, wink).

mmmm...k?

 

[lesliedellow]

You keep believing that and you might end up a Cal...

Oh, wait!

Nevermind.

I am not the one trying to tone it down, and to make it say something other than it does say.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That passage is a warning, and a serious one; it does not say what you are trying to make it say. Its general thrust is the same as that from Ezekiel, only a more stark one.

It appears that AV is a "once saved always saved" believer. People that have that belief use it to support their 'no true Scotsman' fallacies, and I have found that the worst of all sinners in the Christian faith are those that follow that false belief. They have the attitude that since they are "saved" that they cannot sin any longer. So if they do anything it must be right with God.