Some harmful side effects of free will.

[FreeGrace2]

If you were a Jew, you would understand this to mean gentiles too. = all men. Salvation was only of the Jews before this.

It appears you are rather unfamiliar with the Bible, and esp the OT. Salvation wasn't only for Jews prior to Christ. In fact, Abraham was the "father of all who believe". Romans 4 tells you all you need to know about how to be saved in the OT.

Isa 42:6 -
“I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,

Isa 49:6 - he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

Matt 4:13-16
13 Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali—
14 to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah:
15 “Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali,
the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles—
16 the people living in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death
a light has dawned.”

You'd better believe that salvation was also for Gentiles who believed in the Messiah.

btw, Paul wrote the epistle to Titus between AD 63-65. And Titus was a pastor to Gentiles. So 2:11 wasn't even addressing Jews.

The argument

 

[Gregory Thompson]

First, free will is a part of Law. And law cannot save. Free will only leaves people without excuse for breaking laws that cannot save. But this is not true of grace. Grace is unconditional kindness. So when we preach free will salvation, we turn grace into law and the gospel into works. Since Paul stresses the law cannot save, it leaves people with false hope of salvation.

It also focuses a person’s faith in their faith to save them. Instead of on Christ who is the author and finisher of true faith.

It also corrupts God’s image. It turns him into a bully who threatens to torture people forever if they don’t “say uncle”, or do whatever their church tells them to do. And it also turns those who sell their souls for heavenly pleasures into people less than honorable.

If Grace, also known as unmerited favor, is the means of salvation, then God receives full glory for saving us. Otherwise, we rob him of his glory and apply it to ourselves thinking our obedience (goodness) saves us.

Free will only makes salvation impossible. Salvation is by faith but free will says you can lose your salvation. Thinking you can lose your salvation makes having faith that God saved you impossible.

Self effort to modify behavior makes salvation impossible or kills spiritual fruit output.

Trusting God as He works through you, does take conscious effort.

Free Will and Determinism aren't really useful in framing what the bible has to say.

 

[Cormack]

Some harmful side effects of freewill = love and responsibility. Alas, ‘tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

 

[John Mullally]

First, free will is a part of Law.

On many of your posts, you have a tendency of saying X is part of the Law or X is a Work. Therefore X is ineffective because no one is saved by the Law and no one is saved by Works.

Galatians says no one is saved by the Works of the Law. The Works of the Law were given by Moses - who wrote the first 5 books of the OT. The Works of the Law have to do with the 10 commandments and other ordinances given by Moses. In the past you classified Repentance and separately Obedience to Christ's directive in John 3:16 as Works that cannot save. Now your latest is Free Will is Law - and as such is discredited. Sciptura NoLo.

 

[John Mullally]

x

 

[Dave L]

Some harmful side effects of freewill = love and responsibility. Alas, ‘tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

The flesh can only hate. And that's all you have to work with unless God produces the new birth in you.

Try to find love in this mix.

“But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:18–21 (KJV 1900)

 

[Minister Monardo]

The flesh can only hate. And that's all you have to work with unless God produces the new birth in you.

Not True. At least according to Jesus.
Matthew 5:46. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even
the publicans the same?

 

[Dave L]

Not True. At least according to Jesus.
Matthew 5:46. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even
the publicans the same?

Human love is not Holy Spirit love. People love ice cream, they hate Christ.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Human love is not Holy Spirit love. People love ice cream, they hate Christ.

Now you are stating the obvious. Your previous statement was clearly false and not very well thought out. The flesh is not limited to hate. The flesh can mourn, can rejoice, can sympathize. What it struggles with is godly things like forgiveness, and love of enemies.
Most people do not hate Christ, but are indifferent, unbelief is not hatred of Christ. Animosity
towards the things Christ teaches is to hate The Father, but your post is far from comprehending this,
except that most people do love ice cream. Try using scriptures to support every statement.
Seems your unsupported statements get you jammed up as a matter of routine.
The ungodly works of the flesh are tools of Satan, but he is a master of deception. Many
people know how to put on a good face, but they are wolves in sheep's clothing. The Holy Spirit
gives discernment, because a man of lawlessness can appear a godly man. The flesh is not so obvious
as to always be a man of hate. You are teaching from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
If you are teaching Holy Spirit teaching, which you are not, you words would be a tree of Life.

Proverbs 11:30. The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

 

[Dave L]

Now you are stating the obvious. Your previous statement was clearly false and not very well thought out. The flesh is not limited to hate. The flesh can mourn, can rejoice, can sympathize. What it struggles with is godly things like forgiveness, and love of enemies.
Most people do not hate Christ, but are indifferent, unbelief is not hatred of Christ. Animosity
towards the things Christ teaches is to hate The Father, but your post is far from comprehending this,
except that most people do love ice cream. Try using scriptures to support every statement.
Seems your unsupported statements get you jammed up as a matter of routine.
The ungodly works of the flesh are tools of Satan, but he is a master of deception. Many
people know how to put on a good face, but they are wolves in sheep's clothing. The Holy Spirit
gives discernment, because a man of lawlessness can appear a godly man. The flesh is not so obvious
as to always be a man of hate. You are teaching from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
If you are teaching Holy Spirit teaching, which you are not, you words would be a tree of Life.

Proverbs 11:30. The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

Human love is pure sin. God is love and without the Holy Spirit, you can only love at a sinful level.

Find Holy Spirit love in this mess.

“But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:18–21 (KJV 1900)

Find true love here instead.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” Galatians 5:22–24 (KJV 1900)

 

[Minister Monardo]

Find Holy Spirit love in this mess.

The opposite of Holy Spirit love is not sin and hate. It is human love, which is inadequate for
eternal life. Maternal instinct is lodged firmly in the flesh nature and was put there by God from the beginning. The depravities of the flesh can certainly overcome human love to indulge in the mess
that Paul describes, but he is only teaching what the flesh is capable of, and what the Holy Spirit is
able to overcome. Try not to forget that the Good Samaritan was a Samaritan.

 

[Dave L]

The opposite of Holy Spirit love is not sin and hate. It is human love, which is inadequate for
eternal life. Maternal instinct is lodged firmly in the flesh nature and was put there by God from the beginning. The depravities of the flesh can certainly overcome human love to indulge in the mess
that Paul describes, but he is only teaching what the flesh is capable of, and what the Holy Spirit is
able to overcome. Try not to forget that the Good Samaritan was a Samaritan.

If human love isn't rooted in hate, why send people to hell. Even babies die in the womb based on sin.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Human love is pure sin.

Romans 2:
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these,
although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them).

This clearly contradicts your position.

 

[Dave L]

Romans 2:
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these,
although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them).

This clearly contradicts your position.

Why do they die? The wages of sinful love is death.

 

[Minister Monardo]

If human love isn't rooted in hate, why send people to hell. Even babies die in the womb based on sin.

Human love is rooted in hate? Is cold rooted in heat?
As I said, your entire thought process shows that you are
indulging in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Making baseless statements that are not rooted in scripture is just being argumentative.
How do you ever receive with such a ridgid comprehension?
This is not the wisdom from above.
John 3:27. John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him
from heaven.

 

[Dave L]

Human love is rooted in hate? Is cold rooted in heat?
As I said, your entire thought process shows that you are
indulging in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Making baseless statements that are not rooted in scripture is just being argumentative.
How do you ever receive with such a ridgid comprehension?
This is not the wisdom from above.
John 3:27. John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him
from heaven.

God is love. He does not exist in any human apart from the New Birth. Human love hasn't any godly motive.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Why do they die? The wages of sinful love is death.

Wow! Is that in the Bible?
"The wages of sinful love is death." It sounds Biblical, which is what makes it deceptive
and devoid of Truth. What are you trying to prove here, that you will say anything to perpetuate
a debate? You should try to contribute something edifying to others occasionally, like a true word.

 

[Dave L]

Wow! Is that in the Bible?
"The wages of sinful love is death." It sounds Biblical, which is what makes it deceptive
and devoid of Truth. What are you trying to prove here, that you will say anything to perpetuate
a debate? You should try to contribute something edifying to others occasionally, like a true word.

All are sinful in Adam. That's why babies die in the womb.

 

[Minister Monardo]

God is love. He does not exist in any human apart from the New Birth. Human love hasn't any godly motive.

The New Birth in Christ is to perfect God's love in us. God's love was made evident time
and time again to Israel, and many who loved His word manifested His love in the Old Testament.
The Torah was not totally devoid of power, but those who indulge their flesh nature rendered the Law
unable to give life and love to them. You do realize that men of God in the New Birth have returned to the flesh and committed murder. Perfect love is achieved by perfect obedience, but that would require a sincere commitment of the will, "not mine but yours be done".
"For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh"
Those who have received the Holy Spirit are without excuse, as you would seem to be teaching,
and yet people WILLFULLY turn back to their weak and beggarly nature. Here is something from
the scriptures that may help you see this:
2 Peter 2:
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”
and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
Free Will that turns back to the pollutions of the world is a dog's nature, a swine's nature.

 

[Dave L]

The opposite of Holy Spirit love is not sin and hate. It is human love, which is inadequate for
eternal life. Maternal instinct is lodged firmly in the flesh nature and was put there by God from the beginning. The depravities of the flesh can certainly overcome human love to indulge in the mess
that Paul describes, but he is only teaching what the flesh is capable of, and what the Holy Spirit is
able to overcome. Try not to forget that the Good Samaritan was a Samaritan.

Whatever is not of faith is sin. Do you know the Samaritan didn't have faith?