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So who did Christ die for?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by ScottEmerson, May 23, 2002.

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  1. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "I agree that God and God alone has the capacity to save - but it is man who has the choice. "

    Hmm..sorry, can't have it both ways, either God exlusivly saves or he doesn't.

    "How powerful that is! If we choose to "lay aside out old self" "

    Its made very clear by Paul it is God that makes the NEW CREATION, not us.
    Those verses are in reference to SANCTIFICATION.


    "However, you still have never shown that we do not have a choice, and the Holy Spirit is somehow forced on us. "

    Umm..okay, if God alone saves us fully, then we have no part in it..its FULLY him. That's the point of my statements.

    "Again, I'd love to see the Scripture that says man can't CHOOSE the free gift, since it's so "clearly" stated. "

    Who choooses who? Does God choose man or man choose God?

    "where all means only the audience to which Paul writes"

    *chuckles* I made it quite clear that the "all" Paul made reference too needs audience context as well as passage context to understand..or are you throwing those out too? I also gave you a real life example where all doesn't mean everyone in exsistance, just like Paul's "all" doesn't either according to the context.
     
  2. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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    What does it mean to get saved? My position is that God draws all men to Him. It is only if man chooses the gift of salvation, believes in Him, and confesses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord, then God does something amazing in them and gives them eternal life. Man does nothing work-wise to somehow "gain" salvation. It is perfectly understood that all men will be drawn to Him - since not everyone is saved, we reach a quandry. Do we somehow try to change a verse, or do we understand that man can choose whether or not to accept the gift.[/quote]

    If any man be in CHrist, he is a new creature. Hmmm... Being in Christ comes before becoming a new creature - not "Hey, I'm a new creature, so I'm going to be in Christ." As the Scripture says we "lay aside our old self" AFTER we have "heard Him and were taught in Him," we can "put on the new self!"

    God alone saves fully. Man can do nothing to earn salvation. God alone gives man a choice to join in and become His child. Choosing does not mean earning and in no way takes away from God's sovereignty. If anything, God is MORE sovereign in that He created a being with free will!

    [quote["Again, I'd love to see the Scripture that says man can't CHOOSE the free gift, since it's so "clearly" stated. "

    Who choooses who? Does God choose man or man choose God?[/quote]

    Apparently God chooses all men. He died for the whole world (I John 2:2) The Holy Spirit was sent to convict all men (John 16:8) God wants all men to be saved, and according to Luke, it's possible to NOT follow God's purpose for yourself - And when all the people and the tax-gatherers heard this, they acknowledged God's justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John. Luke 7:29-30.

    And I showed you as clearly as I know how that the passages you refer to have NO audience context as we can see from the uses of the word "all" and NO passage context as well. Your real life example doesn't hold much credence, because we're operating here under strict guidelines of language. In the NT, as in all other instances of koine Greek of the time period, ALL means ALL. ALL people in Laodecia means ALL people in Laodecia - because pas is defined by its immediate context.

    14For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

    The next verse says again that Christ died for all. Verse 17 says if "any man."

    Yep - from the context we see that all means all men.

    Let's be honest here. Since you don't like the theology of the verse, you're changing the words to mean what you want them too. In both the KJV and the NAS, pas is never translated some or a portion of the whole. Pas means all.

    And you still haven't answered the question: In every other instance that Paul uses "all" to refer to the people of the Church, he uses "us all" or "you all." Why is that?

    Question: Does the Holy Spirit visit everyone or only the Elect?
     
  3. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    ". Man does nothing work-"

    AGain, you can't have it both ways. Either he does do something or doesn't. Pick one. I'd say God does it all, Period.

    "Apparently God chooses all men. "

    Not according to romans. try 8:26 and keep reading.


    "you refer to have NO audience context as we can see from the uses of the word "all" and NO passage context as well. "

    *sigh* now you're just ignoring the text. I showed you clearly there is audience reference in those verses. wanna try another one?


    "Let's be honest here. Since you don't like the theology of the verse, you're changing the words to mean what you want them too. "

    *sigh* I'm being honest by using the context. You're leaving the context out. That's the simple fact of the matter.

    "In every other instance that Paul uses "all" to refer to the people of the Church, he uses "us all" or "you all." Why is that? "

    Preferance? You can see by the context of the statements that Paul is not throwing out an all people of the world statement. He is being very audience specific.

    "Does the Holy Spirit visit everyone or only the Elect?"

    Ahh...a good question. I'd say everyone, for God reveals himself to everyone, but the sacrifice made is for those who believe and only them.
     
  4. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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  5. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Do we have this right?

    LK 19:1 Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but being a short man he could not, because of the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

    LK 19:5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, "Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today." 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

    LK 19:7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, "He has gone to be the guest of a `sinner.' "

    LK 19:8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."

    LK 19:9 Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

    This scripture reveals God's nature in the area of salvation.

    Jesus set up the meeting. (All will have this meeting)v.5

    Jesus told us it was about inheritance (kinship)v. 9

    Jesus told us He seeks to save what WAS lost. (all of us were born dead)v.10

    Real repentance comes by contrast; a Holy God in the house of a sinner. v. 8 Jesus said I must come TODAY. The only part we play in salvation is how we answer the call. Some say that we have no choice in this, I believe we do have choice in how we answer this call. I also believe this is at the heart of the "all" question.

    Most Christian alter calls rightly contain some or all of this: you must asked Jesus into your heart (your house) you must make Him lord and master of your life (humble yourself) then you are saved. This is just like the scripture, Once humbled your sin next to God's Holiness and grace creates repentances. This is why we see tears when a person gets saved. Our hearts are broken by contrast that comes from humility and the presence of God in us. Pride is the blinder that prevents this. When Zacchaeus climbed the tree he was becoming humble before God. He was short, He didn't ask everyone to squat so He could see, he climbed.

    All are called because "all" have an inheritance to claim. Some will reject, the reason is pride. God can humble anyone of us, as He humbled Paul. Why doesn't God humble all of us?. So I am back to the starting point with a different question about the same subject.

    The answer is in what we are called to do. Jesus went into this house in the flesh, fully man, fully God. That is what He wants from us. Salvation for the lost is actually in the hands of the saved. The blood that will save them was shed once so that all who believe can be saved. The saved are sons/daughters, inheritors of the kingdom of God. We must take this message into a lost world. That is our humility, just as Jesus humbled Himself on a cross, so must we bear a cross, so must we be humble.

    We have developed doctrine to relieve ourselves of this responsibility. I believe that is sin.

    We must pray for the lost by name, know them, eat with them, serve them. They can't be humbled by living 3 days in a whale, that time is over. It's our time as family of God to humble ourselves and get them saved. All are called, as all are born dead, but all have an inheritance. The message we have is life, the delivery is by a servant, not a king, humility will break through pride.

    Blessings
     
  6. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "No refutation of the verses I provided? "

    I did refute them I am choosing now to simplify the issue. God does it all, or man has a part. which is it? It can't be both.

    "Paul uses all to mean all. Your context argument is based solely on apriori. "

    No, the verses you provied where under a different context and different passage. I used the context and audience to interprete the meaning of the scripture, which is the basis for interpreation.

    "What about Irresistible grace. Does the Holy Spirit have a function of visiting but not calling?
    "

    Again, I'm not calvinist, that's a whole differnt discussion. If you had read along you wouldn't have tried to make that link ;)

    "The blood that will save them was shed once so that all who believe can be saved"

    Key thought mike..all that believe are saved. This is who Christ shed his blood for.
     
  7. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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    If you had indeed refuted them, we wouldn't still be here. Here are the ones you haven't addressed, among several:

    Apparently God chooses all men. He died for the whole world (I John 2:2) The Holy Spirit was sent to convict all men (John 16:8) God wants all men to be saved, and according to Luke, it's possible to NOT follow God's purpose for yourself - And when all the people and the tax-gatherers heard this, they acknowledged God's justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John. Luke 7:29-30.

    Your claim of simplification limits you to two choices. Yet, it's possible that both are correct. It's like asking, "Well, who was God? Was God God or was Jesus God? It can't be both." In a non-Calvinist system, both of your choice can be correct. God does all the saving. Man just chooses to take the salvation or not. There is no contradiction, unless somehow you have a different use of the word salvation. I maintain that God will not save those who don't want it.

    If a helicopter is going over a flood, picking up people on top of houses, saving their lives, the people in the helicopter (which can be read as helicopter by means of metonymy) are doing ALL of the saving. Now if a person says, "No! I'm going to try to make it on my own," and the helicopter DOESN'T pick him up, is the helicopter somehow doing LESS of the saving? Nope - for whom the helicopter save, the helicopter is doing ALL the saving.

    Here is what you're doing. Let's say that I use the word turtle 50 times in a paper. I talk about how turtles act, the different types of turtles, how long turtles live and so on. One of my passages say, "One turtle lasted as long as 120 years." Since you don't like (for whatever reason) thhat description of the word turtle, you read it as "a toy turtle."

    Let me simplify what we're seeing happening. You have said several times, "I have shown you that there is a different audience." I maintain that the audience is exactly the same - Paul was writing to a group of Christian believers. You say that there is a different context, yet I've shown how with Paul, "all" limits ITSELF in EVERY instance that he uses it. Yet, somehow, you're saying that Paul limits it EVERYTIME, except for the one(s) that you don't like. That's what it all boils down, too. I'll give you one last try to "specify" the audience and context - Let's see what you can do, because, I've gone through the board again, and I really don't see where you've done this - only claimed that it's already been done.[/quote]

    "What about Irresistible grace. Does the Holy Spirit have a function of visiting but not calling?
    "

    Again, I'm not calvinist, that's a whole differnt discussion. If you had read along you wouldn't have tried to make that link ;)[/quote]

    If God does ALL the saving, then is the Holy Spirit not powerful enough to save these people? It's a legitimate question. If you do not believe in irresistible grace, then is God still completely sovereign?
     
  8. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

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    sO, WHO DID CHRIST DIE FOR?


    It seems to me, the title to this thread should have been;

    DOES MAN PLAY A PART IN HIS SALVATION?




    RICHARD
     
  9. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "If you had indeed refuted them, we wouldn't still be here. "

    yes, you just refuse to accept it.

    Again the 1 john 2:2 verse needs context. He came to take the sins of the believers away, so why does John say this? To frame the next statements he makes of christ's accpetance of everyone, not just the jews. Look at verse three..."we know we have come to know him if..." John is breaking down the jews only paradyme. Look at chapter 1 verse 7..."...purifies US from all sin." Who is the Us? The believers and ONLY the believers.

    "In a non-Calvinist system, both of your choice can be correct. "

    Not true, I'm not a calvinist and its an either or thing. Do you play a part in your own salvation or don't you. Its one or the other.

    "the helicopter DOESN'T pick him up, is the helicopter somehow doing LESS of the saving"

    In your analogy you leave some important parts out. The helicopter doesn't draw those people to it. The helicopter is not fully saving them. To make this analogy correct you have to add a person that was lowered down and grabs them and takes them up regardless of what they want. The sinful man rebels against God and CANNOT obey him. Not maybe can grab the rope...CANNOT grab the rope. Then you analogy is correct and also, oddly enough, further proves my point.

    "If God does ALL the saving, then is the Holy Spirit not powerful enough to save these people? "

    I would say umm...the Holy Spirit is God so your question is irrelevant. Sorry dude, God saves, man does not. Its all God and the all that Paul uses is believers, that's it. Christ came to save the church, that's it.
     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    richard, I totaly agree, and my answer would be we have no part in our salvation, God does it all.
     
  11. calvinist

    calvinist Daniel in the Lion's Den

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    Dear All,

    To answer the original question, who did Christ die for, I say this: Christ died to save particular persons who were given Him by the Father in eternity past. His death, therefore, a 100 percent success, in that all for whom He died for will be saved, and all for whom He did not die for will recieve "justice" from God when they are cast into hell.
    Paul was obviously a Christian when he wrote the books of Ephesians and Galatians.
    "Christ also loved the CHURCH, and gave Himself FOR IT." Ephesians 5:25

    Paul in his letters often referred to those he was writing to and himself (Christians) as "us". Look at this passage:
    "...OUR Lord Jesus Christ... gave Himself for OUR sins, that He might deliver US from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father. To whom be the glory for ever and ever." Galatians 1:3-5

    So when Paul said OUR or US, he was not referring to the whole world, he was referring to people like himself, Christians. So Christ died for the elect, who had been chosen before the very foundations of the earth as said in Ephesians 1. May God Bless and Rejoice in the grace that is Christ Jesus.
    Delighting in the Grace of God,
    Calvinist

    "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him." -John Piper
     
  12. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

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    Sinners!

    1 Tim 1:15
    This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
     
  13. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    Amen Juile, and that would mean ALL MEN who would ever live becos all men have sinned.
     
  14. an7222

    an7222 Rational morality is a must

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    Jesus died for our sin as the perfect holocaust. But it doesn't mean that sin doesn't exist anymore. It means instead that each time we sin we make God "suffer". That's the message.

    "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. John 15:22"
     
  15. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    Hmm...I think Christ died for those that would believe. If he died for people that wouldn't then for some he died for nothing. Sorry, I don't think that the bible says Christ's sacrifice is wasited. :)
     
  16. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    "Hmm...I think Christ died for those that would believe. If he died for people that wouldn't then for some he died for nothing. Sorry, I don't think that the bible says Christ's sacrifice is wasited. Sorry, I don't think that the bible says Christ's sacrifice is wasited."

    Scripture?

    Christ died for sinners

    1 Tim 1:15
    This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


    all men are sinners, so Christ died for all. how much simpler can it get???

    And if some do not believe, how is that a waste of Christ's blood/time? What kind of a man-made reasoning is that? Is there scripture that says its a waste of his blood?
     
  17. Athlon4all

    Athlon4all I'm offline indefintely

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    Good point Andrew, in any case, Romans 10:13 says "Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved (and salvation is being "saved")". Need anything else be said?:) Praise the Lord we all can be saved!!!
     
  18. prodigal

    prodigal Member

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    What is the purpose of the question? Does anyone think they are so sinful that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient for them?
     
  19. calvinist

    calvinist Daniel in the Lion's Den

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    Dear All,

    Do not forget who Paul is writing to in Rome. The Roman Christians! The Roman Church. The Elect!
    Delighting in God's Unconditonal Election,
    Calvinist
    "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him." -John Piper
     
  20. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    response to Calvinist (posts are all not in order!)

    "Do not forget who Paul is writing to in Rome. The Roman Christians! The Roman Church. The Elect!"

    He was writing to both parties.

    Ro 10:9* That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Is this more for Christians or non-Christians?

    And what is your point? That only the Roman Christians in Paul's time were sinners?
     
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