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So who did Christ die for?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by ScottEmerson, May 23, 2002.

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  1. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

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    Dear Andrew,

    Why are you ducking my questions?

    Christ loves those He will save and those he died for.

    You are the one who limits the work of Jesus. Your doctrine says that Christ is powerless to save anyone until they decide to be righteous first. No? Then answer my questions.

    Your doctrine says the cross did as much to save those in hell as it did those in heaven. AND I limit the atonement? Ha!

    And I never said God's blood is wasted. Please quote me where i said that.
    so obviously, the facts are not clear to you.

    You don't buy the elitist argument? I am confused Andrew? I thought that was your argument. I thought you in a sense are saying that heaven is only for those wise enough to make the right decisions here on earth. An exclusive club for those who are somewhat better than others in their spiritual thinking. If not, then why do you fail to answer my questions?

    You say one man chooses right, the other wrong, don't you? AND the one who chooses right gets heaven, the one who chooses wrong, hell. Right? Then the difference between heaven and hell is NOT the cross [so dont boast on it Andrew] but YOUR DECISION MAKING ABILITY. Boast on that, not Jesus, for that is why you believe you have attained heaven and the other poor sots languish in hell [they didn't have what ever it is you had and enabled you to see spiritual reality better, or desire God more, or whatever you wish to fill in the blank on why you chose God over hell]

    Aahhh, but you refuse to fill in the blank, you duck my questions. You don't want to talk about your boasting, only just boast.

    But the truth is, the truth you are denying, is that we are saved by grace. And it is God who saves, not God who gives us an opportunity to save ourselves. He gave that to man and we chose to sin.

    And finally you dally in illogic. It is illogical to assume that Christ died for all sinners just because all sinned. He could have died for some sinners and still died for sinners. Go ask a logician.
     
  2. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    210
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    Andrew,

    I believe you agree all will not call. Don't you think God already knew that as well? Then how is it an act of love to give someone a chance you already know they will not take?

    Aaahhh but you took it, huh? But now you are reluctant to talk about it? yet you boast in your decision making ability in every thread! But when i start questioning you, you go back to your tired mantra.

    Be ready, the scriptures tell us, to give an account to anyone who asks of your hope. [Do 'faith' movement guys need hope? just wondering]
     
  3. closer

    closer New Member

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    I love the use of context in John 12:19. The fact that a I made a mistake in assumption is evident. Let me clarify. When the Bible speaks on a theological basis and not quoting a man who speaks in generallities it takes on the concept of the universal scope. When it speaks in a general content of the world it is just another signal that it is a general call. You are right. Millions die without hearing the gospel. They are hopeless. Still for all who have saved it has always been a matter of the cross. Either they had faith and were set their hearts to God or they did not. Before Christ it was the Jews who looked to salvation from the Messiah. After it is us who look back to the Messiah. Anything short of Jesus is lost. Salvation is still dependant upon Christ.
    Secondly Jesus did not come to condemn is correct. He came to save. The fact that some will not accept does not mean Jesus condemns them. It means that they rejected the provision placed upon them. Secondly John 3:17 still says that the world (theological universal general call no way with sound exegetical effort this is a specified group of people) might be saved. This is John's theological emphasis on Jesus's ministry. Jesus came to save the world not just a specified number. This made provision for all.
     
  4. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Hi scott,  I believe what the bible says and that is that salvation is for all those who accept the gift of His Son Christ Jesus. Some people claim that Christ died for all men, and therefore, all men are saved automatically,(universalism). Others claim that Christ did not die for all men, but only for the people that he chose to be saved, (calvinism). I don't believe the bible teaches either of these doctrines. The scripture does not contradict itself.  I'm glad you quoted 1Jn 2:2... the following passages seem to contradict 1Jn but they do not:  Isaiah 53:12, “He poured out His soul to death; and with transgressors He was counted; and He bore the sin of many” (not all). Matthew 20:28, "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."  It sounds like God has us between a rock and a hard place here right?  Kind of like a catch 22!?  The debt has surely been paid for all by Christ, but not all choose to put on Christ (Galatians 3:26-27). Salvation is conditional. Christ died for all men, but not all believe and accept His gift of salvation.    

    (1 Tim. 4:10) For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. This passage that you quoted from 1Tim brings it all together and puts it into it's proper perspective.

    [/B][/QUOTE]
     
  5. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

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    Dear closer,
    you said:
    I love the use of context in John 12:19. The fact that a I made a mistake in assumption is evident. Let me clarify. When the Bible speaks on a theological basis and not quoting a man who speaks in generallities it takes on the concept of the universal scope. When it speaks in a general content of the world it is just another signal that it is a general call. You are right. Millions die without hearing the gospel. They are hopeless. Still for all who have saved it has always been a matter of the cross. Either they had faith and were set their hearts to God or they did not. Before Christ it was the Jews who looked to salvation from the Messiah. After it is us who look back to the Messiah. Anything short of Jesus is lost. Salvation is still dependant upon Christ.

    Ok we agree on that.

    then you said:


    Secondly Jesus did not come to condemn is correct. He came to save. The fact that some will not accept does not mean Jesus condemns them. It means that they rejected the provision placed upon them.


    Whoa Betsy (-:
    You just got done saying [and agreeing with me], that millions never will hear of Jesus. But now you turn around and say that they are condemned for rejecting that which many of them never heard.

    Sin is what seperates us from God. Because we all have chosen to ignore our own consciences AND to treat others badly in ways we ourselves wouldn't want to be treated, we are justly and rightly condemned before a holy and just God.

    There is no need for anyone to be condemned for not believing the cross, for as John 3 :18 tells us, those who do not believe are already condemned. Here it is in the Greek order:

    The [one] believing in Him is not judged; the [one] not believing already has been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Now this applies to all people, even those who have never heard of Jesus. They are judged [meaning condemned for their sins] because they have not believed in Jesus who is the only way to escape our deserved judgment.

    So those who are condemned are not condemned because they rejected Christ [since millions never did and yet are condemned] but they are condemned because they are sinners. We are sinners as well, but we are not condemned because we accepted Christ and as all agree, the work of Christ, especially on the cross, cleanses us from our sin.

    The difference then is why some of those that hear accept Jesus, and others reject Him. One argument goes like this: God loves everybody and leaves it up to us to choose whether to follow Him or reject Him. That is normally called the Arminianist position. And it is basically all though there are variations on that basic theme.

    The other position is basically this: God loves whom He chooses and sent Jesus to die for their sins and he saves those He loves. Again there are variations on this theme as well. But the two main differences are 1] who God loves, and 2] who chooses.The Arminianists say that God loves all and man chooses; and the calvinists say that God loves and savces whom he chooses.

    Now you agree that many perish because they never hear of Jesus. Where then is God's love for them? If God loved them by sending Jesus, it seems a hollow gesture if God never provides a way for them to at least hear about Jesus. Likewise in the OT, you agree salvation was to the Jews, and so where was God's love and provision of salvation for the many MORE who were not Jews?

    A gift of love is no real gift if the one who is the recipient never has a chance to open it!

    The other difference I will take up later.

    you continued:

    Secondly John 3:17 still says that the world (theological universal general call no way with sound exegetical effort this is a specified group of people) might be saved. This is John's theological emphasis on Jesus's ministry. Jesus came to save the world not just a specified number. This made provision for all.


    Not according to your first paragraph. It seems you think it only made provision for all who HEAR it, which you agree millions upon millions don't. God being God certainly knew that these millions would never hear the gospel and thus stay condemned. He knew it by foreknowledge at least. But even discounting that, He knew that at the time of Jesus, those 30 years or so, that millions were dying all around the world and had no provision for there sins. He also knew that it would take time to get the message to all people [no email, TV, radio, telephones, telegraphs, planes, cars, trains or even steam-powered boats] and that millions more would die without hearing about the only possible path to heaven.

    So when the Bible uses the words 'world', or 'all', I take them NOT to mean everybody individual specific. Since God has NOT provided a way for everybody to hear about Jesus, He has not provided a way for everybody to get saved. Therefore the cross DOESN’T represent God’s love for everybody individually specific, but rather the word ‘world’ in John 3:16 is speaking about people in general.

    Who then does God love as demonstrated by the cross? All people?

    No, as I have shown.
    Some people? Yes.

    We have two choices here.

    1] Everyone who hears the Gospel. Some whom God saves by His mercy, the others He damns for their sins.

    2] Those He saves.

    I cleared the net, sway it back to me.
     
  6. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    210
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    Dear Scott and Franklin,

    Re: my last post.

    Can anyone be saved outside of faith in Jesus?
    If so how?
     
  7. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
    "
     

    and that is the name that is above all other names there Mike, Jesus..... I hope this answers your question! 
     
     
  8. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    210
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    Thanks Franklin.

    I wasn't asking as if i didn't know. I wanted to know what you believed.
    But sorry to be technical with you, but what about faith? You didn't answer that part. I have found that in discussions like these, we tend to assume some things about others, even as basic as this.

    Can we be saved apart from FAITH in Jesus?
    thanks
     
  9. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    210
    +0
    Franklin,

    Did you read my other posts?

    If so, and since salvation is through faith in Jesus, how is it that the cross is aprovision of salvation for those who never hear about it?
     
  10. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    I know you weren't, I was just giving you a hard time in a humorous way... . :D  

     

    I believe that faith is an action if that is what your asking.  Faith and works (Godly works) go hand in hand, they are actually one in the same as far as scripture is concerned.... so sez the book of James.....

     

    How about you answering this question for me this time, I think i already covered this one Pilgrim.....

     
    Now it's time for me to ask you some questions.... ;)   Do you really believe that God is that unmerciful that He will separate someone from him forever if they absolutely never even heard of Christ?  That is something I think only God can be the judge of.  But what do you think?

     
     
  11. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

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    +0
    Franklin,

    I can see you are wavering on the faith issue. It seems to me you either don't know if faith in Christ is neccessaery or you don't want to say. C'mon say what uoiu believe!

    I will answer what you did not cover: quote:

    Can we be saved apart from FAITH in Jesus?
    How about you answering this question for me this time, I think i already covered this one Pilgrim.....

    Since the old way is now gone, there is only the new way to heaven: faith in Jesus. Before the old way was gone, people still were saved because of their trust in God, but it was the God revealed through the Word given to the Hebrews.

    But you did not cover whether faith was necessary at all. You simply said that salvation is through Jesus. Albeit that you were replying to my question that asked if anyone can be saved apart from faith in Jesus. Back to this point in a moment.

    But first let me answer your last question:
    quote:
    If so, and since salvation is through faith in Jesus, how is it that the cross is aprovision of salvation for those who never hear about it?

    Now it's time for me to ask you some questions.... Do you really believe that God is that unmerciful that He will separate someone from him forever if they absolutely never even heard of Christ? That is something I think only God can be the judge of. But what do you think?


    I think that it is not for us to judge God.

    I think His Word tells us that only through faith in Christ can one be saved.
    His Word also tells us that when he condemns all the others, He is condemning then NOT because they have refused Christ, but because they have purposefully willfully sinned, violating both their own sense of right and wrong and God's laws. They also treated others less properly than they themselves wished to be treated.

    The Word tells us that all stand guilty before Him.

    So is God unmerciful to some? He sure is. The Word again tells us that He will show mercy to who he chooses, and he will harden who He chooses. But He will never be unjust to any. Those condemned are justly condemned. And to us to whom he has shown mercy and saved us, we are saved by grace for we too are sinners before God and deserve the same fate as the hell-bound.

    So do you believe salvation is by faith in Jesus or is there another way?
     
  12. closer

    closer New Member

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    Let's look at this. God condemns because of sin. Agreed
    God sent Jesus to pay for those who call. Agreed
    God knows all things. Agreed
    People who never hear of Christ die and go to Hell. Agreed
    If God did no provide a way for all men with the cross then justice is not served. To be just and God is one must make provision available whether it is accepted rejected or unheard.
    Who will be responsible for the lost of the Old Testament? The Jews because they were the missionaries of the Old Testament. They were to be the testimony of God to other nation.
    Who will be responsible for the lost of the New Testament? The Church we are the trumpet of God's provision. We are responsible for failing in the mission. They are responsible for being a sinner. Provision was made but we have to take it to them.
     
  13. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

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    +0
    Dear closer,

    On these we do agree:

    Let's look at this. God condemns because of sin. Agreed
    God sent Jesus to pay for those who call. Agreed
    God knows all things. Agreed
    People who never hear of Christ die and go to Hell. Agreed


    You continue.

    If God did no provide a way for all men with the cross then justice is not served. To be just and God is one must make provision available whether it is accepted rejected or unheard.


    This is not true. Justice is done when each gets what they deserve. We don’t deserve a provision made available for us. Romans 3: 26 says that God is both just and the justifier of those who have faith in Christ despite the fact that He passes over our sins. He is just in that He condemns all whom have sinned, but can justify us who have faith in Christ because Christ paid our sin debt.

    Likewise to provide a way via the cross essentially entails providing the means to go that way. There is no provision for those who never hear, for it is only by hearing then believing does the cross have any present power to deliver. If they never hear, they can never believe. Therefore it can’t be said that God provided them a way, since He knew they would never hear! Where is the love of God for these people? It is not there!

    You
    Who will be responsible for the lost of the Old Testament? The Jews because they were the missionaries of the Old Testament. They were to be the testimony of God to other nation.


    They were a testimony to other peoples, but NOT all of them. The Jews were never told to go to the ends of the earth and be witnesses for God. The people responsible for being lost are the people themselves since they willfully chose to sin, and to treat others wrong. Adam tried to point the finger at Eve, the woman God gave him, as if it was God’s or Eve’s fault he sinned. No we are each responsible for our own sins UNLESS Jesus’ blood covers them. Here God has mercy on some of us, those He chooses.

    Then,
    Who will be responsible for the lost of the New Testament? The Church we are the trumpet of God's provision. We are responsible for failing in the mission. They are responsible for being a sinner. Provision was made but we have to take it to them.


    Have you failed in your mission? Are you responsible for those who have not heard? If not you, then who? Names please with facts to back up your charges.

    Where does the NT tell us we are responsible for every person? It tells us to be witnesses of Jesus AS we go into and throughout the world. Did God expect the church to instantaneously witness to all world-wide? And since God knew it would take time to reach all peoples, He obviously
    1] wasn’t expecting the church to be responsible for what they could not do,
    2] nor was He providing any way of salvation to those who would never hear.

    So where then is the love of God for these people, as demonstrated by the cross? [Romans 5:8, John 3:16]
    I conclude He doesn’t love all, but only those He saves.
     
  14. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "its obvious you lack any scripture proof that Christ blood wld be wasted if it was shed for all men. So until you back it up with scripture, this is my last post. "

    I willl as soon as you answer my question, so get a move on andrew ;)


    "Christ died for sinners and if you believe all men have sinned, then He died for all men."

    Nope, it says he died for those that believe in him.
     
  15. closer

    closer New Member

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    Sorry mjwhite we are going to have to do this another time. I am in the process of moving and all of my resources are packed up. Still I will leave you with a final thought. If Christ did not die for all then why does Peter write that the false teachers spurn the blood which was shed for them. Maybe we will be able to discuss this later. It truly has been a pleasure. You are a wonderful counterpart. Take care till later.
     
  16. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

    +578
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    . I do not intend to reenter this discussion I just could not resist posting something about this subject. If it's been covered, forgive me.
    JN 12:47 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.

    Jesus tells us that He is not judging the world but His words will bring judgment to those who reject Him.

    48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

    Jesus is giving us a cost of the cross that many miss, it's the cost of saying what He was saying. Because He said it, some will die by their own choosing. Jesus knows the cost of saving some is losing others. It's actually in our hands now.

    49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

    Here Jesus tells us that His words are good. The truth is simple. Jesus died to save the world but His words cut two ways. Accept and be saved, reject and be judged. We have the words now. Who will we tell?

    Blessings
     
  17. ServantGirl4Holy1

    ServantGirl4Holy1 New Member

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    1.The limited design in the Atonement follows from the Father's eternal choice of certain ones unto salvation
    - Before He became incarnate He said“Lo, I come to do thy will O God" (Hb 10:7)
    - After He became incarnate, He said, “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me.”-Jn 6:38
    - Assuming that God had from the beginning chosen certain ones to salvation, then He would not seek to enlarge upon the # of the Father's election.
    * “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and Him that cometh
    to me I will in no wise cast out...And this is the Father's will...that of all
    which He hath given me I should lose nothing,but should raise it up
    again at the last day.”-Jn 6:37,39
    * “These words spake Jesus, and lifted up His eyes to heaven, and
    said, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may
    glorify thee; As thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He
    should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given Him...I have
    manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the
    world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept
    they work ... I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them
    which thou has given me; for they are thine...Father, I will that they
    also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they
    may behold my glory, which thou has given me: for thou lovest me
    before the foundation of the world.'”-Jn 17:1,2,6,9,24

    2. The very nature of the Atonement evidences that, in its application to sinners, it was limited in the purpose of God
    - Christ's Atonement considered in 2 views: God-ward & man-ward
    * God-ward: Christ's work on the cross was a propitiation, an
    appeasing of divine wrath, a satisfaction rendered to divine justice and
    holiness
    * Man-ward: Christ's work on the cross was substitution, the
    innocent taking the place of the guilty, the just dying for the unjust
    - Strict substitution of a person for persons, and the infliction upon Him of voluntary sufferings, involve definite recognition on the part of the substitute & of the one he is to propitiate of the persons for whom He acts
    * If the Lawgiver accepts the satisfaction made by the Substitute, then it
    follows that those for whom the Substitue acts must be aquitted
    * On the cross Jesus gave Himself as a ransom, which was accepted by
    God, as the empty grave on the 3rd day signifies
    - For whom is this ransom offered?
    * If Christ bore on the tree the sins of all men, then none would perish
    [for we have already established His sovereignty]
    * Christ did not discharge the debt of all men without exception, for
    there are some who will be “cast into prison” (c.f. 1 Peter 3:19), and
    they shall “by no means come out thence, till they have paid the
    uttermost farthing” (Matt. 5:26) – which none can do
    * Christ did not bear the sins of all mankind, for there are some who do
    die in their sins (John 8:21), and whose “sin remaineth” (John 9:41)
    * Christ was not made a curse for all Adam's race, for there are some to
    whom He will say, “Depart from me, ye cursed” (Matt. 25:41)
    - To say Christ “bore the curse of many who are now bearing the
    curse for themselves; that He suffered punishment for many who
    are now lifting up their own eyes in Hell; thatHe paid the redemption
    price for many who shall yet pay in their own eternal anguish 'the
    wages of sin'”(G.S. Bishop)is blasphemy against Christ's work!
    - On the other hand, Scripture says, that Christ was stricken for the
    transgressions of God's people, that He gave His life for the sheep,
    that He gave His life as a ransom for many, that He made an
    atonement that truly attones! He paid a price that effectually
    ransoms! He is a Savior who effectually and Sovereignly saves!

    3. Teachings concerning our Lord's priesthood
    - Christ intercedes as the Great High Priest, but for whom? The whole human race, or for His own people?
    - He is “now to appear in the presence of God for us”(Hb 9:24)for those who are “partakes of the heavenly calling”(Hb 3:1)
    - “Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them”-Hb 7:25
    * John 17:9–I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them
    which thou hast given me; for they are thine
    * Romans 8:1-39
    - Romans 8:33 – Q: “Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's
    elect?” A: “It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is
    Christ That died, yea, rather that is risen again, who is even at the
    right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”
    * Note that the death and intercession of Christ have the same objects.
    Therefore, if Christ intercedes for them only, the He died for them only.
    The death, resurrection, exaltation, and intercession of Jesus are the
    reason why none can lay “charge” against God's elect
    - If the death of Christ extends to all,how does it become security against a charge, seeing that all who believe not are“under condemnation”?(Jn 3:18)

    4. God's power, as well as the Atonement's nature and Christ's priesthood, determines the number of those who share the benefits of Christ's death
    - “Grant that the one who died upon the cross was God manifest in the flesh, &it follows that what Christ had purposed that will He perform; that what He has purchased that will He possess; that what He has set His heart upon, that will He secure.”-A.W.Pink
    - One might claim that this is true in the abstract sense, but Christ refuses to exercise this power in that He would never force anyone to accept Him as Savior. [i.e. “we aren't His robots”or“where's grace in that?”]
    -Refutation to the above statement(s): The salvation of any sinner is a matter of divine power
    * By nature, the sinner is at enmity with God
    * Nothing but divine intervention could overcome this enmity. “No man
    can come unto me, except the Father which hath sent me to draw him.”
    (Jn 6:44)
    * Divine power overcoming is what makes him willing to come to Christ,
    but the “enmity” is not overcome in everyone
    - To say that some will not allow Him to overcome would be to deny His Sovereignty&godhood!For a defeated Savior cannot be God
    * It is not a question of the sinner's willingness or unwillingness, for by
    nature all are unwilling.
    * Willingness to come to Christ is the product of divine power
    operating in the human's heart and will in overcoming man's inherent &
    chronic “enmity” - “Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power” (Ps 110:3)
    * It is not a question of our will, but a question of His will

    Explicit Scriptural statements affirming the doctrine of limited atonement
    1) Isaiah 53:8 - “He was taken from prison and from judgement: and who shall declare His generation? For He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was He stricken.”
    2) Matthew 1:21 - “Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.” ALL the Father had given Him.
    3) Matthew 20:28 - “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” Why have said “for many”if all were included?
    4) Luke 1:68 - “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people” It was His people whom He “redeemed”.
    5) John 10:11 - “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” It was for “the sheep" not the “goats” that the Good Shepherd gave His life.
    6) Acts 20:28 - “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” It was the “Church of God” which He purchased with His own blood.
    7) Jn 11:49-52 - “And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, 'Ye know nothing at all, nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.' And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; and not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.”
    * Caiaphas “prophesied not of himself “, (c.ref. Pet. 1:21) His prophecy
    orginated not with himself, but he spake as he was moved by the Holy
    Spirit; thus the value of his utterance is vouched for, as is the Divine
    source of this revelation.
    * Definitely informed that Christ died for “that nation”, i.e., Israel, and
    also for the One Body, His Church, for into the Church the children of
    God-“scattered” among the nations–are now being “gathered together in 1”.
    * The members of the Church are here called “children of God” even
    before Christ died and therefore before He began to build His Church!
    * The vast majority of them had not yet been born, but yet they were
    regarded as “children of God" b/c they had been chosen in Christ
    before the foundation of the world, therefore “predestinated unto the
    adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself”(Eph 1:4-5)
    - The last week of His Earthly ministry
    * Jn 13:1-“Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew
    that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto
    the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved
    them unto the end.”
    * John 15:13-“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
    his life for his friends.”It was for His friends that He died
    * John 17:9-“And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might
    be sanctified through the truth.” That for the sake of His own He
    seperated Himself unto the death on the Cross

    The only limitation in the Atonement arises from pure sovereignty; it is a limitation NOT of value and virtue, but of design and application

    I hope this helps! God bless y'all!
    Your sister in Christ,
    Chels :)
    Btw, i'll also post an examination of those parts of scripture that seem to most strongly teach unlimited atonement :) Enjoy!
     
  18. ServantGirl4Holy1

    ServantGirl4Holy1 New Member

    7
    +0
    An examination of those passages whicm seem to teach most strongly unlimited atonement (here's the other part that i promised... i hope it helps!)

    - 2 Cor. 5:14 - “One died for all”
    * Read whole verse
    * In the Greek, there is a definite article before the last “all”, and the
    verb is in the aorist tense. thus it should be read, “We thus judge: that if
    One died for all, then they all died”.
    - Note the NIV:“For Christ's love compels us, because we are
    convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.”
    - Form of the verse: “We thus judge, that if...then were”
    * Those for whom the One died are judicially regarded as having diedalso
    * Note the next verse-“And He died for all, that they which live should
    not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them,
    and rose again”
    - The One not only died but also “rose again” as did the “all” for whom
    He died, for it is here stated that they “live”
    * Those for whom a substitute acts are legally regarded as having acted
    themselves; in the sight of the law, the substitute and those He
    represents are one.
    - So it is in God's sight: Christ identified with His people, and His
    people are identified with Him; When He died, they died(judicially)
    and when He rose,they rose

    - 2 Cor 5:17-“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”
    * Hence the “all” Christ died for are bidden to manifest practically what is
    true judicially: “live unto Christ who died for them”
    * Thus the “all” is defined: they which “live” and which are bidden to
    live “unto Him”

    - Three basic truths taught in this passage (in inverse order)
    1) Certain ones are bidden to live no more unto themselves but unto Christ
    2) The ones thus admonished are “they which live” (spiritually), hence the children of God, for only they possess spiritual life, since all others
    are dead in their trespasses and sins
    3) Those who spiritually live are the “all”, the “them”, for whom Christ
    died and rose again

    - Christ died for all His people, the elect; that as the result of His death and resurrection, for them, they “live”; this new life, theirs through Christ, must be lived “unto Him”

    - 1 Tim. 2:5,6 - “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men [note: not “man”, for this would have been generic, signifying mankind], the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
    * In Scripture, the term “all” (as applied to mankind) is used in 2 senses – absolutely and relatively. May mean all without exception or all w/o
    distinction.
    * How do you tell which meaning?
    - Determined by context
    - Decided by comparison of parallel scriptures
    * The word “all” here in this sense is being used in a relative and
    restricted sense
    - Must mean all without distinction and not all without exception
    - Mark 1:5-And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and
    they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of
    Jordan, confessing their sins
    ~ “All” does not mean expressly every man, woman, and child;
    for “the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God
    against themselves, being not baptized of Him.” (Luke 7:30)
    - “All” must mean without distinction, that is, all classes and
    conditions of men
    ~ Luke 3:21 - “Now when all the people were baptized, it came to
    pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven
    was opened”
    ~ John 8:2 - “And early in the morning he came again into the
    temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down,
    and taught them.”
    * The temple could not have accommodated everybody who
    was in Jerusalem, rather, people from all classes and races
    and such conditions of men came
    - Acts 22:15 - “For thou [Paul] shalt be his witness unto all men of
    what thou hast seen and heard.”
    ~ Surely “all men” here does not mean every member of the
    human race
    ~ Thus it must be all without distinction
    - 1 Tim. 2:6-“Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due
    time.”
    ~ All without distinction;NOT all without exception
    ~ He gave Himself as a ransom for men of all nationalities, of all
    generations, of all social classes; in a word: for the elect.(Rev 5:9)
    - Our definition of all is not arbitrary. “The Son of Man came not to be
    ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a ransom for
    many” - Matt. 20:28
    * The limitation “for many” would have been unnecessary and
    meaningless if He had given Himself as a ransom for all w/o
    xception
    * Back to the original passage:1 Tim. 2:5,6-“For there is 1 God, and 1
    mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself
    a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” Look at the last phrase
    - If Christ gave Himself as a ransom for the whole human race, in
    what sense will this be “testified in due time”? Especially since
    multitudes of men will certainly be eternally lost
    - However, if our text means all without distinction, then the meaning
    of these qualifying words is quite understandable, for in “due time”
    this will be “testified” in the accomplished salvation of every one of
    them

    - Heb 2:9 - “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”
    * There is actually no word whatever in the Greek corresponding
    to “man” in our English version. In the Greek it is left in the abstract -
    “he tasted death for every”
    * The R.V. has correctly omitted “man” from the text, but has wrongly
    inserted it in italics
    * The following verse should explain our text: “For it became him, for
    whom are all things, and whom are all things, in bringing many sons
    unto glory, make the captain of their salvation perfect through
    sufferings.” It is of “sons” the apostle is writing, and suggest an
    ellipsis of “son” => thus supply son in the blank: “He tasted death for
    every --”
    * It was for the “sons” and not the human race our Lord “tasted
    death”


    Hope these help! God bless y'all!

    Your sis in Christ,
    Chels :)
     
  19. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

    +4
    Christian
    So who did Christ die for?

     

    Sinners!

     

    If there are any sinners out there I got good news for em.
     
  20. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    +538
    Catholic
    US-Others
    Even the sinners in Hell right now? If Jesus died for their sins, then why are they in Hell? You're saying that Christ's sacrifice is ineffectual.
     
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