So who did Christ die for?

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Caleb
So who did Christ die for?

Matt. 1:21 states: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

Although Christ's death was sufficient to cover the sins of every man, we know not all will be saved. Hence, Christ died for those the Father has given Him. (John 17:6-9)

That would be great but it doesn't logically follow in the least.

1. Christ's death was sufficient to cover the sins of every man.
2. not all will be saved.
**** 3. (which must be in here to logically follow) Christ could not have died for those who weren't going to be saved.
4. Christ died for those the father has given Him.

the verse you quoted listed people being saved, not who He died for. Care to explain the uses of the word all?

 

[edpobre]

ScottEmerson,

I Wrote: Chirst is the SAVIOR of the church, his BODY (Eph. 5:23).

You wrote: Christ is Saviour of the Church, but not necessarily exclusively so.

What do you mean by "but not necessarily exclusively so?" Christ built HIS church (Matt. 16:18). Are you saying that Christ will SAVE other churches that are NOT his?

I wrote: Christ PURCHASED his church with his own blood (Acts 20:28).

You wrote: The word here is peripoieomai and has the original Greek meaning of to render as one's own, as it combines the word for do with the phrase on account of. So we can agree that Christ, through his blood, made the church His own.

God SENT Jesus to REDEEM those under the law that they may receive adoption as sons (Gal. 4:4-5). Redeem is equivalent to purchase and without shedding of blood, there is no remission (Heb. 9:22).

Thus, it is NOT correct to say that Christ, through his blood, made the church his own. What Acts 20:28 is saying is that Christ REDEEMED his church with his blood which conforms with Eph. 5:25 which says that Christ GAVE his life for his church.

I wrote: While Christ died for ALL sinners, ONLY members of his body, the church will be saved on judgment day.

You wrote: Agreed, but this doesn't NECESSARILY follow whta you've typed before.

It does.

I wrote: They are the "US" and "WE" referred to by apostle Paul in his letters.

You wrote: Incorrect. "us" and "we" refer specifically to the audience of the letter.

The audience of the letter are members of the church which Christ PURCHSASED with his own blood. Rom. 5:8 says, "Christ DIED for US..."

I wrote: They are the people whom God delivered from the power of darkness and whom He translated into the kingdom of His son, in whom there is redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14). Apostle Paaul called members of this church, "churches of Christ" (Rom. 16:16), much as they are called in these last days.

Why do you read churches of Christ as individuals? He You wrote: gives the individual hello's and THEN says hello from the actual churches of Christ. There's no evidence that one person makes up an ekklesia.[/color]

Read Romaans 12:4-5 where Paul says that they are all members of one body.

Ed

 

[Caleb]

Quote by Scott:

That would be great but it doesn't logically follow in the least.

This is a problem with discussing doctrinal issues. Trying to understand these issues by "logic" can lead to faulty reasoning because it is relying on man's thinking and conclusions. To further define doctrine, Scripture will back up other portions of Scripture which will help in better understanding His Word.


the verse you quoted listed people being saved, not who He died for. Care to explain the uses of the word all?


The word "all" refers to both the saved (including the ones who will be saved in the future) and the ones the Father has given to Christ. They are one and the same.

John 17:6-10

"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

Now they have kown that all things which You have given Me are from You.

For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them , and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.


Since the Father has given those He has chosen to Christ, it is for them he has died for as stated in Scripture. You ask a good question regarding the meaning of "all." The question has been asked many times in the past.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Caleb
Quote by Scott:

That would be great but it doesn't logically follow in the least.

This is a problem with discussing doctrinal issues. Trying to understand these issues by "logic" can lead to faulty reasoning because it is relying on man's thinking and conclusions. To further define doctrine, Scripture will back up other portions of Scripture which will help in better understanding His Word.

So are you saying that the leap between:

1. Christ's death was sufficient to cover the sins of every man.
2. not all will be saved.

********

4. Christ died for those the father has given Him.

...should be filled in by Scripture? Okay, great. Where is it?


The word "all" refers to both the saved (including the ones who will be saved in the future) and the ones the Father has given to Christ. They are one and the same.

John 17:6-10

"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

Now they have kown that all things which You have given Me are from You.

For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them , and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.


Since the Father has given those He has chosen to Christ, it is for them he has died for as stated in Scripture. You ask a good question regarding the meaning of "all." The question has been asked many times in the past. [/QUOTE]

But did Christ die for all? The passage does not address that topic, and there are many who believe that the passage "those You have given me" refer specifically to the Eleven, especially since the people are ALREADY believers - "that have ALREADY received them." Therefore, we cannot take that he is praying for those who have come AFTER his death.

And again, your statement, "Since the Father has given those He has chosen to Christ, it is for them he has died for as stated in Scripture," doesn't follow unless you can show where Christ did NOT die for all. (We're talking death, not salvation)

 

[Caleb]

First off, let me state that I believe the Holy Bible to be true and is the infallible Word of God. It is not my intention to argue through logic as to whether the Scriptures are true to the finite mind of man.

Scott’s quote:

So are you saying that the leap between:

1. Christ's death was sufficient to cover the sins of every man.
2. not all will be saved.


This is not a leap to me. From knowing God’s attributes, there is nothing He couldn’t do, including the sufficiency to cover the sins of all mankind. To say He couldn’t limits Him to less than the all-powerful God that He is.


Christ died for those the father has given Him.
...should be filled in by Scripture? Okay, great. Where is it?


Perhaps these Scripture verses will help:

Matt. 1:21

And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sin.

Rom. 5:6

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.


Christ saved His people by dying on the cross for their sin. “His people” refers to those the Father has given Christ as stated in John 17:6-10.


But did Christ die for all? The passage does not address that topic, and there are many who believe that the passage "those You have given me" refer specifically to the Eleven, especially since the people are ALREADY believers - "that have ALREADY received them." Therefore, we cannot take that he is praying for those who have come AFTER his death.

I beg to differ from those who might believe the statement “those You have given me” refers only to the Eleven. There are many others that believe God was speaking about all those who were given to Christ, not just the Eleven. God’s election covers those who have believed in the past, present, and future. The Father knew before the foundation of the world who would be saved. Hence, “all” refers to everyone that is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

The bottom line is whether the Word of God is taken by faith and is accepted as true and infallible. If not, arguing over doctrine becomes futile. You’re now talking apples and oranges. I can see there’s no way either one of us is going to change each other’s mind. We’ll have to respectfully agree to disagree.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Caleb
Perhaps these Scripture verses will help:

Matt. 1:21

And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sin.

It says specifically save. Not die.

Rom. 5:6

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

So are the "non-elect" ungodly or not? Doesn't ungodly cover ALL men, since ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

In no way do the verses you provided show that Christ died only for the believers...in fact the latter tends to show that Christ died for all ungodly.

I beg to differ from those who might believe the statement “those You have given me” refers only to the Eleven. There are many others that believe God was speaking about all those who were given to Christ, not just the Eleven. God’s election covers those who have believed in the past, present, and future. The Father knew before the foundation of the world who would be saved. Hence, “all” refers to everyone that is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Christ speaks about those who have already chosen him. The Greek is unequivicably in the past tense. He prays for those who have chronologically already chosen him. Who are these people who believe that Christ wasn't saying what He meant? What are their proofs?

The Father knew that He would set aside a group of people to be His as a group - He did not specify individuals. See the Bibliology and Hermeneutics Romans 9-11 thread to see.

The bottom line is whether the Word of God is taken by faith and is accepted as true and infallible. If not, arguing over doctrine becomes futile. You’re now talking apples and oranges. I can see there’s no way either one of us is going to change each other’s mind. We’ll have to respectfully agree to disagree. [/B]

Is the Bible true? Yes. Is it infallible? We'd probably disagree on that. There are many spots in the Old Testament that are inaccurate. There are a few contradictoins. There are some added parts in the New Testament that were more than likely not written by their original authors. I believe the original manuscripts were infallible, but not the ones we have now.

Believe it or not, but my mind WAS changed after searching the Scriptures. I was a five-point Calvinist, havin read the Institutes more than once. However, reading through the Bible again and learning the original language helped to change the way I saw God, salvation, and so on. I may make a new thread to tell about it.

People's minds CAN be changed - and it's really cool when God sets a person free from the bondage of faulty theology!

 

[Caleb]

Scott's quote:

People's minds CAN be changed - and it's really cool when God sets a person free from the bondage of faulty theology!

Thank God this is only one man's opinion! I find myself to be in the company of some of the greatest Christian scholars: Spurgeon, Pink, Calvin, Whitfield and many more. There are scholars on both sides of the 5-point Calvinist view, and I accept that there are differing opinions. Head knowledge is one thing, humility of the heart is another. We Christians should have both knowledge and humility.

I will leave you with a Scriptural exhoration:
Eph. 4:1-3

I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Wise words to heed!

I respect your opinion and hope that you will come to the point where you will respect mine also.

 

[Andrew]

LOUIS said: "Well please look at the WHOLE verse in its context okay? I believe that is romans 6.."For just as through the ssidobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many wil be made rigtheous."
---------------------

Firstly, you got the wrong chap. It's chap 5.
Also, if u are going to interpret all cases of "all" as "many" becos of your above verse, then you are saying that "many" are sinners not "all". Get it? IOW for Calvinist to be consistent here, they must believe that not "all" have sinned but only "many".

WHY MUST BLOOD BE SHED?
becos without the shedding of blood there can be no atonement for sin, the Bible says.

So Christ shed his blood becos of sin in the world. And where did this sin come from? Men -- all men as all men have sin.

So Christ died for SINNERS not believers for there weren't Christians yet when Christ died!. And if ALL men are sinners, then Christ died for all! It's that simple!

 

[LouisBooth]

"Firstly, you got the wrong chap. It's chap 5. "

Sorry, had to go with memory, didn't have my bible handy that day. I quoted 5 though

"IOW for Calvinist to be consistent here, they must believe that not "all" have sinned but only "many"

I'm not calvinist???? so what??

"And if ALL men are sinners, then Christ died for all! It's that simple!"

No, I'd still say you're wrong. Christ died for those that believe. Find any verse and you can clearly see that. Pick a verse (another one for I have showed you in John 3:16 and in the romans passage that its for those that believe) and I'll show you there too.

 

[Lion Heart]

2 Tim 2
19 "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his....."

One thing for sure, the "them" spoken of here is 100% of ALL , the ALL in the verse being debated, can't be the entire sum of all people who were born into humanity, why, you ask?

Because, as we look at the scriptures, the Spirit reveal, that many have perished in their sin of unbelief (Rom 11, Heb 3) and many yet shall also fail to enter into HIS rest because of unbelief.

Furthermore, the "ALL" in the following verse;


Rom 11
26 "And so ALL Israel shall be saved: as it is written,...."

Is not speaking of 100% of the nation of Israel, because we understand that the ALL in view here, is a "Remanent acording to election by GRACE" concerning the nation. (Rom 9:27, 11:5)

And;

we understand that Paul has received a revelation by the Spirit, concerning this MYSTERY of "who the ALL" are,

and, he explains this mystery in the following passage;

Eph 1
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one ALL things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ .

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances ; for to make in himself of twain one new man , so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets , Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit .


Eph 3
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Eph2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God ;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1 Pet 2
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious : but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.



The total sum of ALL WHO COME TO JESUS, are those who, obey the commandment.


John 6
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, COMETH UNTO ME .






RICHARD

 

[eldermike]

All means all. God wants all to be saved but what is not clear is what that means. To be saved you must believe that Jesus had to die for your sins. That is not taught as often as it should be. So, who will be saved depends on what they hear. Perhaps that is what the Calvinist really meant. That left to us to teach it, we would get it all wrong.

Blessings

 

[LouisBooth]

"All means all. "

He just showed you it means only a certain group it its context. If I say in front of a crowd, do you all like me? I am not saying does everyone in the world like me, I'm saying it to that group present. All those that are saved are those that believed and those are the people Christ died for.

 

[Andrew]

2 Cor 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I guess the Calvinists are going to interpret world as "believers" again? So what does "world" here mean? According to Strongs:

2889 \~kosmov\~ kosmos {kos'-mos}

probably from the base of 2865;
TDNT - 3:868,459; n m

AV - world 186, adorning 1; 187

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
Pick a verse (another one for I have showed you in John 3:16 and in the romans passage that its for those that believe) and I'll show you there too.

Let's revisit John 3:16. Let's decide on whom the burden of proof lies!

Noman F. Douty in his book, "The Death of Christ," states thse works:

Trench's Synonyms of the New Testament
Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament
Robinson's A Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament
Souter's Pocket Lexicon of the Greek New Testament
Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament
Ardnt-Gingrich's A Greek-English Lexicon of the NEw Testament
Abbott-Smith's Manual Greek Lexicon of the NEw Testament
The NEw Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge
Hastings' Bible Dictionary and Dictionary of the Apostolic Church
the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Tasker's New Bible Dictionary
Harrison in Baker's Dictionary of Theology
John Davis in his Dictionary of the BIble (both harrison and Davis list John 3:16 as referring to mankind, though both are Presbyterians)

Then Douty says,

"But amid all the divisions and sub-divisions listed, the word for world is never said to denote "the elect." These lexicons know nothing of such a use of kosmos in the New Testament, under which to tabulate John 1:29, 3:16-18; 4:42; 6:33, 51; 12:47; 14:31; 16:-8-11; 17-21, 23; II Corinthians 5:19; John 2:2; and 4:14."

He goes on to say,

"All of this is disastrous for advocates of Limited atonement. They have ventured to set themselves above the combined scholarship of lexicons, encyclopedias and dictionaries when they ascribe a different meaning of the word kosmos which will support their theological system."

In fact, I challenge anyone to find any kind of use in ancient or koine Greek outside the NT where "kosoms" is translated "the elect."

Guess what? Scholars haven't found such use yet.

 

[LouisBooth]

"2 Cor 5:19 "

Well lets look at this in context of the passage shall we? First of all we know Paul is writing to the christian churchs, not coranth as a whole. Remember my above example? Okay, if that's not good enough for you, although it should be, lets look at the passage.

verse 16..who is he talking to? "So from now on WE regard no one from a worldly point of view." Seems clear to me Paul is addressing christians in this passage..lets look further... verse 20 "We are therefore Christ's ambassadors..." Hmm...seems pretty clear that the we is those he is talking to ie CHRISTIANS, don't ya think?

Well just look at the context of john 3:16, heck, just look at the verse itself. "who so ever believes in him..." umm...pretty defining terms there. Does everyone have the opertunity, yes, did Christ die for everyone? Nope. He died for christians, for nonchristians reject him so he rejects them also. didn't you read where it says those that reject my in front of men I will reject them in front of my father? He did not die for those who reject him.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
Well just look at the context of john 3:16, heck, just look at the verse itself. "who so ever believes in him..." umm...pretty defining terms there. Does everyone have the opertunity, yes, did Christ die for everyone? Nope. He died for christians, for nonchristians reject him so he rejects them also. didn't you read where it says those that reject my in front of men I will reject them in front of my father? He did not die for those who reject him.

Christ says for GOd so loved the world. Whosoever believes in him is a different phrase all together. You assume that here that whoever God only loved who would say "yes."

You also take a huge leap in stating that Christ did not die for those who would reject him - He still could have died for them. The scholarly evidence points ever so strongly that world indeed means every person.

 

[Lion Heart]

Originally posted by eldermike
All means all. God wants all to be saved but what is not clear is what that means. To be saved you must believe that Jesus had to die for your sins. That is not taught as often as it should be. So, who will be saved depends on what they hear. Perhaps that is what the Calvinist really meant. That left to us to teach it, we would get it all wrong.

Blessings

eldermike,

I would never dispute the word which says he died for the whole world, he says all, I believe its all, but we don't have to be blind to see that his death for their sins didn't or doesn't benefit those who have never accepted Him as their redeemer, they died in unbelief, He may as well not have died for them.

Unless, the Word in Mt 1:21 is not translated correctly, he saves only his people.

So Scotts question on this thread is; "So who did Christ die for?" The answer is HIS PEOPLE.


Blessing, RICHARD

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Lion Heart


eldermike,

I would never dispute the word which says he died for the whole world, he says all, I believe its all, but we don't have to be blind to see that his death for their sins didn't or doesn't benefit those who have never accepted Him as their redeemer, they died in unbelief, He may as well not have died for them.

Again, his sacrifice may not benefit them but we're comparing quality with quantity. His sacrifice was unlimited but not everyone accepts that sacrifice. Even though He might as well not have died for them, his sovereignty (according to Institutes 3.1.1) was great enough to die for the entire world.

Unless, the Word in Mt 1:21 is not translated correctly, he saves only his people.

So Scotts question on this thread is; "So who did Christ die for?" The answer is HIS PEOPLE.


Blessing, RICHARD

It says that he will save his people from their sins. I'm still waiting for a clear passage that says that death=salvation. Calvin nor Arminius could find one.

 

[LouisBooth]

"You also take a huge leap in stating that Christ did not die for those who would reject him - He still could have died for them. "

If that is so then universal salvation is realized. This is NOT the case according to the bible. That much is clear. So he could not have died for everyone. Read the context of the verse. That is something you are not doing. Its very clearly spelled out who the all is. Look at the verse before AND after "...that everyone who believes in him..." "whoever believes in him..." Its pretty clear that the people that believe in him he died for, those that don't he didn't. Did you see my example of the contextual use of the world all as I posted above?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"You also take a huge leap in stating that Christ did not die for those who would reject him - He still could have died for them. "

If that is so then universal salvation is realized. This is NOT the case according to the bible. That much is clear. So he could not have died for everyone. Read the context of the verse. That is something you are not doing. Its very clearly spelled out who the all is. Look at the verse before AND after "...that everyone who believes in him..." "whoever believes in him..." Its pretty clear that the people that believe in him he died for, those that don't he didn't. Did you see my example of the contextual use of the world all as I posted above?

I am reading it! You're still reading WAY into the text. Can you show me just one verse or passage that unequivicably states that death=salvation? That's the missing link here - showing Scripturally that Christ's death HAS to equal salvation.

Calvin couldn't find it, Augustine couldn't find it, Arminius couldn't find it, none of the earliest church fathers could find it. Where are they missing?