So who did Christ die for?

[ScottEmerson]

Does God want all people to be saved?

(2 Pet. 3:9) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

(1 Tim. 2:4) (God) desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

(1 Jn. 2:2*) He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

(1 Tim. 4:10) For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

There are a lot of instances of "all" here - and I'm having a hard time seeing that all means some.

 

[Nick_Loves_Abba]

(2 Pet. 3:9) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Here's the KJV Version...

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I think tou took this out of context, because if you look at a few verses before this one it talks about ungodly men

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
and a thousand years as one day.

3:7 talks about the perdition and judgement of ungodly men.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Nick_Loves_Abba
(2 Pet. 3:9) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Here's the KJV Version...

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I think tou took this out of context, because if you look at a few verses before this one it talks about ungodly men

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
and a thousand years as one day.

3:7 talks about the perdition and judgement of ungodly men.

I'm confused here. Who does the all refer to, then?

 

[Nick_Loves_Abba]

Haha I dunno I'm confused too

 

[Blessed-one]

all of us are sinners, there're no righteous men on earth. Jesus came to save the Israelites as well as the Gentiles, so "all" means everyone.

 

[LouisBooth]

"There are a lot of instances of "all" here - and I'm having a hard time seeing that all means some."

All who accept.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"There are a lot of instances of "all" here - and I'm having a hard time seeing that all means some."

All who accept.

I can't see in the text where it says that.

 

[Nick_Loves_Abba]

John 3:16 says those who believe will not perish.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Nick_Loves_Abba
John 3:16 says those who believe will not perish.

Okay. So combining that with the previous verses, we see that God wants all to be save, but only a few choose to believe?

 

[Mandy]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson


Okay. So combining that with the previous verses, we see that God wants all to be save, but only a few choose to believe?

That is what I believe. I believe that Christ died for all, because that is what the Bibles says, but all will not be saved.

 

[Andrew]

Limited Atonement

Well I posted this elsewhere but I guess it belongs here.

Here's why I believe Christ died for all....
-----------------------------------------------------------
Some Calvinists have shared with me that Christ did not shed his blood for all mankind, but only for those 'predestined' for heaven.

IOW, they maintain that all those scriptures which say "all" men actually mean "many" (and we argued extensively abt the meaning of 'all' vs 'many'!).

They also reasoned that it was "ridiculous" or "beneath" Jesus (sort of like a 'waste' of his blood) to shed his blood for those who would end up in hell.

My question: Dont Calvinist believe that ALL men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, no thanks to Adam? So if they do, then how can the last Adam's work be a "much more" compared to the first Adam's (as stated in Rom 5) when the former's work affected all mankind whereas Jesus' work affects only an elect group? ie If sin affects all, but grace was shed only for some, how can Jesus work be a "much more" than Adam's sinning and its effects?

in relation to this:

Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Why do Calvinist (the ones I've talked to) interpret "all" in the first instance to mean "all" but in the same breath/verse interpret "all" in the second instance to mean "many". Where is the consistency in interpretation?

 

[LouisBooth]

"I can't see in the text where it says that."

Umm...pick a verse then and I'll show you.

 

[BigJon]

is there really a discussion here? if God says all he must mean all, not many, most, or a select few, all is everyone.

 

[LouisBooth]

"if God says all he must mean all, not many, most, or a select few, all is everyone."

All who believe yes.

 

[Andrew]

quote: "All who believe yes"
---------------------------------------------------------------------

"even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life"

well there doesnt seem to be any qualification in the above verse. ie Christ's forgiveness is open to all.

if we want to qualify it as only "all who believe", then to be consistent in the verse we must also say that condemnation is only for "all who believe" they are sinners.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson
Does God want all people to be saved?

(2 Pet. 3:9) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

(1 Tim. 2:4) (God) desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

(1 Jn. 2:2*) He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

(1 Tim. 4:10) For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

There are a lot of instances of "all" here - and I'm having a hard time seeing that all means some.

ScottEmerson,

Christ built his church and promised that death will not prevail against her (Matt. 16:18).

Christ loved the church so much that he gave his life for it (Eph. 5:25).

Chirst is the SAVIOR of the church, his BODY (Eph. 5:23).

Christ PURCHASED his church with his own blood (Acts 20:28).

While Christ died for ALL sinners, ONLY members of his body, the church will be saved on judgment day.

They are the "US" and "WE" referred to by apostle Paul in his letters.

They are the people whom God delivered from the power of darkness and whom He translated into the kingdom of His son, in whom there is redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14). Apostle Paaul called members of this church, "churches of Christ" (Rom. 16:16), much as they are called in these last days.

Ed

 

[LouisBooth]

"well there doesnt seem to be any qualification in the above verse."

Well please look at the WHOLE verse in its context okay? I believe that is romans 6.."For just as through the ssidobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many wil be made rigtheous."

the verse you quoted was verse 18 I think. I quoted verse19 which seems to be the summation of the arugment made. (oh please try and remember references next time for people following along). Well how are we to recieve this gift. Look eariler in the letter, it explains it. 5:1 justified through faith. Again we see it is only though that believe that the free gift is for.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Does God want all people to be saved?

(2 Pet. 3:9) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

(1 Tim. 2:4) (God) desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

(1 Jn. 2:2*) He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

(1 Tim. 4:10) For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

There are a lot of instances of "all" here - and I'm having a hard time seeing that all means some.

Christ built his church and promised that death will not prevail against her (Matt. 16:18).

Death will not prevail against the church. Agreed.

Christ loved the church so much that he gave his life for it (Eph. 5:25).

Okay.

Chirst is the SAVIOR of the church, his BODY (Eph. 5:23).

Christ is Saviour of the Church, but not necessarily exclusively so.

Christ PURCHASED his church with his own blood (Acts 20:28).

The word here is peripoieomai and has the original Greek meaning of to render as one's own, as it combines the word for do with the phrase on account of. So we can agree that Christ, through his blood, made the church His own.

While Christ died for ALL sinners, ONLY members of his body, the church will be saved on judgment day.

Agreed, but this doesn't NECESSARILY follow whta you've typed before.

They are the "US" and "WE" referred to by apostle Paul in his letters.

Incorrect. "us" and "we" refer specifically to the audience of the letter.

They are the people whom God delivered from the power of darkness and whom He translated into the kingdom of His son, in whom there is redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14). Apostle Paaul called members of this church, "churches of Christ" (Rom. 16:16), much as they are called in these last days.

Why do you read churches of Christ as individuals? He gives the individual hello's and THEN says hello from the actual churches of Christ. There's no evidence that one person makes up an ekklesia.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"well there doesnt seem to be any qualification in the above verse."

Well please look at the WHOLE verse in its context okay? I believe that is romans 6.."For just as through the ssidobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many wil be made rigtheous."

the verse you quoted was verse 18 I think. I quoted verse19 which seems to be the summation of the arugment made. (oh please try and remember references next time for people following along). Well how are we to recieve this gift. Look eariler in the letter, it explains it. 5:1 justified through faith. Again we see it is only though that believe that the free gift is for.

Yes. Let's look at the verse in its complete context. The gift came upon all men and many will become saved. It seems looking at the entire context and using both verses that not all who are offered the free gift are made righteous - only the ones who accept the gift receive it.

 

[Caleb]

So who did Christ die for?

Matt. 1:21 states: "And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

Although Christ's death was sufficient to cover the sins of every man, we know not all will be saved. Hence, Christ died for those the Father has given Him. (John 17:6-9)