So Just Exactly How Does the Evang./char. Christian Know Whether or Not. . . .

[brotherjim]

Oscarr, JohnM, heron, churchlady, (WHOEVER,)

I'm afraid you guys/gals missed my last point.

My experience 16 years ago had nothing whatsoever to do with the thread starter (I had not even remembered it until AngelEyes' post yesterday, and it is a testimony I post on divers forums from time to time, usually when discussing the WoF and attempting to teach WoFers that balance is needed in the WoF. (I am deeply indebted to the WoF for the many, many good and edifying things that I did manage to extract from it---all glory to God and Grace alone.) As always, sift, sift and sift, is the lesson; don't throw the baby out w/---

Please forgo the psychoanalysis, people. Thanks. This thread is not about personas.

The intended normal Christian life, is one where---I think someone mentioned it here before---"the world is crucified onto us, and us onto the world."

God's process of crucifying the world onto us, includes a never-ending-in-this-life series of "deaths," whether jobs, businesses, relationships, possessions. This is exactly what is required in the process of sanct./regen.---among whatever else. There are no shortcuts. Of course, today's post-modern church, by and large, staunchly disagrees that such sufferings are a requirement for---- (So now that I said it for many of you, pleaseeeeeee, I'm begging all, pleaseeeeeee do not turn this thread off track into a discussion of why the Christian does not have to suffer, if indeed that is what you believe rather than what I just stated. Thanks. This thread attempted to form a list of all litmus tests, and of course some will not be acceptable to certain ones. There are plenty of others. I got another one at 1 this morning, and had to get out of bed again at 3AM to write down yet another that came to mind. God is verrrrryyyy gracious.)

Last night I sat down and composed the sermon/outline I first set out to do, and which prompted the posting of this thread on this and a dozen other forums and forum channels. I came up with ten main items/ litmus tests.

One of the tests, which I based on AngelEyes post, is about our obedience as Christians to the commandment, "The just shall live by Faith." (Thanks again, Angel.) My post to her here was merely giving an example of how, although her point was valid and is indeed one of those things I was looking for, it cannot, by itself, be sufficient in indicating whether someone is in or still in the Faith, or not. But neither are any of the litmus tests, including the two I first mentioned here: ALL are necessary, for each one by itself can be deceiving.

As I believe I suggested here, someone on another channel, GraceAndMercy (??), offered up 2 Peter 1:5-11, which gives us two litmus tests, that of Fruits of the Spirit increasing in us, and the same regarding soulish fruits. I also suggested you guys search John's first epistle, as it too yields several litmus tests. But you guys/gals are so busy trying to figure out my motives, that you cannot see the forest for the trees. The thread is not about my motives, but about the thread starter.

So allow me to repeat and get the thread back on track. If you cannot control your thoughts and emotions to post intelligent, objective, edifying adjuncts to the list attempting to be composed by this thread, then get off and stay off, please. Stick to the thread starter, please. Thanks.

(Your words, JohnM, were very sweet and nice and godly and all that, but it was not from God. But the only way to correctly identify the Voice of God on a consistently reliable basis, is through years of practice, "by reason of use" [KJV]. There are no shortcuts, and we each and all must suffer the potential embarassments and whatever sufferings wrought, by learning from our mistakes---man best learns from error. There is a deep, deep need in the charismatic church, for itinerant teachers to spend a couple weeks with local congregations, teaching them how to discern the Voice of God, and also teaching how to speak and write prophetically. The lessons are also applicable to those desiring to some day play a musical instrument at Carnegie Hall. Post what you will feel you absolutely have to as a last word on the matter, John, to save face or whatever, and then drop it (or, preferably, say nothing more about it). Such has nothing to do with the thread, and you guys/gals are clogging it up with all sorts of nonsense. I understand you think you are helping; I understand you think you're doing God and me service; I understand you are convinced that God has you ministering here---)

So I sincerely appreciate all of your considerations. You could've just ignored the thread altogether, so I'm at least grateful for something more. But---

Back to the thread starter, people: how can someone (not me, not you, but anyone) know if they are in, or still in, the true Faith.

Sincerely, brother jim


"It is through much tribulation whereby we are enabled to enter the Kingdom of God." (Ampl./para.) --Acts

 

[brotherjim]

Whoever,

Okay, then; getting back on track, how does the Christian do the following:

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" 2 Cor. 13:5:

"But let a man examine himself. . . ." 1 Cor. 11:28a

"Prove all things. . . ." 1 Thes. 5:21

". . . if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. But let every man prove his own work. . . ." Galatians 6:3b-4a:

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." 2 Cor. 11:3-4

"For if we would judge ourselves. . . ."

How?


brother jim


So far we have:

1) walk in faith;
2) determine if Fruits of the Spirit and . . .
3) fruits of the soul are increasing in our life (2 Pet. 1:5-11);
4) consider if we are suffering/being persecuted;
5) are we reg. spending intimate time in prayer;
6) experiencing inner peace;
7) experiencing "death" working in us;
8) are Spirit-led good works coming forth (though we have still not quantif.);
9) are we speaking prophetically for God (1Cor.14:1, 5, 39), or instead indulging in the remaining idols of our own heart, out of the abundance of which the mouth speaks---and regardless of how we or others perceive it to be ("lean not upon thy own understanding)"; which brings to mind . . .
10) are we pleasers of man w/ many friends, or pleasers of God w/ many enemies;
11) have you forsaken all to follow Him--Lk.5:11; will you die for Him?

The list is now being updated on Post #72, Page #8.

 

[brotherjim]

CONT'D:

OR, perhaps we can attempt approaching the subject from a different direction:

The Bible repeatedly warns of false brethren. If you believe as I do, that such do not come dressed in red suits with horns and pitchforks; if you believe that such do not pray to satan each night but to God in Jesus' Name; if you believe that such, if queried or even just voluntarily, would share personal testimony of their conversion to Christianity; if you believe such sit next to us in church and preach from our pulpits; then:

How do we know that we are not one of those reprobates/false brethren?

brother jim

 

[heron]

brother jim, you have succeeded in alienating everyone who responded to your post. What fruits can you claim by ripping others to shreds in order to make your point?

You cannot control how people respond to your questions or comments. The purpose of a forum is to bring together people of different mindsets. You have asked us "not to" told us to focus, reprimanded us for answering things "wrong" and decided what our next words should be. Why should we bother continuing a conversation in which we are your robots? I'm out, bud. Good luck with your sermons.

 

[brotherjim]

brother jim, you have. . . .

Orrrrrrrrrrrrr...........

..........you could just admit that you do not have the answers, and stop bluffing.

brother jim

 

[Angel*Eyes]

One of the tests, which I based on AngelEyes post, is about our obedience as Christians to the commandment, "The just shall live by Faith." (Thanks again, Angel.) My post to her here was merely giving an example of how, although her point was valid and is indeed one of those things I was looking for, it cannot, by itself, be sufficient in indicating whether someone is in or still in the Faith, or not. But neither are any of the litmus tests, including the two I first mentioned here: ALL are necessary, for each one by itself can be deceiving.

I understand what you mean. Do you care to share the things that you have come up with on your list?

 

[churchlady]

Orrrrrrrrrrrrr...........

..........you could just admit that you do not have the answers, and stop bluffing.

brother jim

Well, after that rude reply to Heron, let me give you 2 biblical 'litmus' tests to add to the list you have compiled so far.

1. "For ye are yet carnal; for whereas there is among you envying and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" I Cor. 3:3

(I read parts of your postings on the other forums and the same strife exists there, as well) Examine yourself brotherjim with this 'litmus' test. When a person consistantly has trouble getting along with fellow believers, this is a good sign that his works are not 'those ordained before the foundation of the world'


2. "..........for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." Math. 12: 34

What and how we consistantly speak is a good indication of what is going on in our souls. Another 'litmus' test for you. When what comes out of your mouth alienates a group of believers, it just might indicate that your works are not the 'works ordained before the foundation of the world'.

 

[brotherjim]

I understand what you mean. Do you care to share the things that you have come up with on your list?

Hi AngelEyes,

Well, you ask that so very sweetly, it's so very, very hard for me to say:

No, I do not feel led at this time to share that. Not publicly. And, besides, it's not done.

HOWEVER, a large part of it is already posted up on this page on Post #62 (assuming that this post gets squeezed in on the same page). I'm adding to the list as things come up. There are already 8 items, and I'm editing and adding more as they come in. It's already enough of a list to keep most busy for some time.

Angel, I've been posting teachings and many things on these forums for several years, info. that I spent literal thousands of hours in prayer and deep study to ferret out from the Lord, and shared them with all, free of charge---all glory to God and Grace alone, as He made me.

I cannot ever remember---well, now I do: it's been a year or two ago, though---asking all of you guys/gals to help me with a teaching, as the Lord nearly always teaches me directly (as each of you should also be doing: 1Jn.2:27, trusting no man with your soul, not entirely anyhow). But this time He was holding back, and told me to come to the many of "you."

I claim to write and speak prophetically, as the Lord wills. I seldom put this out there, 'cause, well, you know that casting pearls thing. To say such makes someone quite vulnerable, and when it causes others to stumble, and they mock or whatever other persecution comes of it, then all lose. But I'm telling you this because if I was to write more than what I am, for me it would be sin, disobedience to the Lord.

I know how things appear, and it makes it nearly impossible, if not altogether, to believe any of the above---and in fact only a specific revelation by God can so reveal it as Truth---but nevertheless, that is what I feel led to write to you.

Please see what happened at Mars' Hill after Paul preached the Word.

If you email me privately---my address is on the profile page---I can give you more than what is here, however.

[Allegedly] in His Grace of Love for you, Angel*Eyes, jim

 

[brotherjim]

Well, after that rude reply to Heron, let me give you 2 biblical 'litmus' tests to add to the list you have compiled so far.. . .

Ummmm, ehhhhh, exsqueeze me, but:

AGAIN, may I kindly remind EVERYONE, this thread is not about how to apply litmus test to others.

I realize that some of you feel justified in attempting to drag the thread off track time and time again...

....but PLEASE stick to the thread.

The thread is about how I can judge/examine/prove me.

The thread is about how you are to judge/examine/prove you.

The thread is about how a Christian can judge/prove/examine themselves.

For the Commandment and warning is: "Examine yourselves. . . ."

Let us reign in our emotions people and stick to the topic of the thread, please. Thanks for your hopeful Christ-like cooperation. The world is watching us, among them nay unsaved and even hurting Christians, who need answers, who need more of God, who need revival in their lives.

Thanks on behalf of the Lord Christ Jesus, "them" and myself, brother jim

 

[tpony298]

May I tell you a story?

Luk 5:1 And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret,

Luk 5:2 And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing their nets.

Luk 5:3 And he entered into one of the ships, which was Simon's, and prayed him that he would thrust out a little from the land. And he sat down, and taught the people out of the ship.

Luk 5:4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.

Luk 5:5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.

Luk 5:6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.

Luk 5:7 And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink.

Luk 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

Luk 5:9 For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken:

Luk 5:10 And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.

Luk 5:11 And when they had brought their ships to land, they forsook all, and followed him.



Maybe this does not apply, in your thinking, to the question of trusting God for success in business.

But what I see, is that success in business on earth demends on earthy variables. Time invested, research, market, and such... When Jesus promiced these fishermen sucess, he was thinking on a spiritual level. Yes , I agree while here we need toeat... but where our treasure is there our heart will be also....love Pony

 

[brotherjim]

May I tell you a story?. . . they forsook all, and followed him.

Maybe this does not apply, . . .

Well, actually, you just blew us all out of the water.

Oh, my, how can I add that one to the list on Post#62 ?????

"They" are claiming me as alienating the audience, but surely the above will cause a mass exodus here, yes/no?

Nevertheless, it is now #11 on the list.

Thanks (I think), God bless, and welcome to the very-intimidating-at-times forum, brother jim

 

[brotherjim]

The List so far:


1) walk in faith;
2) determine if Fruits of the Spirit and . . .
3) fruits of the soul are increasing in our life (2 Pet. 1:5-11);
4) consider if we are suffering/being persecuted;
5) are we reg. spending intimate time in prayer;
6) experiencing inner peace;
7) experiencing "death" working in us;
8) are Spirit-led good works coming forth (though we have still not quantif.);
9) are we speaking prophetically for God (1Cor.14:1, 5, 39)---and regardless of how we or others perceive it to be (lean not upon thy own understanding)---or instead indulging in the remaining idols of our own heart, out of the abundance of which the mouth speaks; which brings to mind . . .
10) are we pleasers of man w/ many friends, or pleasers of God w/ many enemies;
11) have you forsaken all to follow Him; will you die for Him?

 

[Angel*Eyes]

tpony298, welcome to CF

...Luk 5:4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.

Luk 5:5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.

Luk 5:6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.

Good passage. These first few scriptures in particular have encouraged me.

 

[brotherjim]

9) are we speaking prophetically for God (1Cor.14:1, 5, 39)---and regardless of how we or others perceive it to be (lean not upon thy own understanding)---or instead indulging in the remaining idols of our own heart, out of the abundance of which the mouth speaks; which brings to mind . . .

If I may expound:

We as charismatics are at an advantage, somewhat (though "to whom much is given, much is required"), because we believe in the operation of the supernatural Gifts of 1 Cor. 12. But some still do not understand, that all nine Gifts have both a personally edifying manifestation, and a manifestation for ministering to others. The former are for our personal edification (and we all need that, amen?), operable as we will; the latter for edifying the church/others, manifested only as God wills.

If you read 1 Cor. 14, verses 1, 5 and 39, you should see that God's wish for each and ALL, as expressed through Paul, is for ALL to prophesy. This is not having just a word now and then in a church service, but as a way of daily life, just like many of us pray in tongues each day. It is commiting oneself in "the law of [your] mind" (Rom. 7:21-25) to speaking no idol word (which God says will be judged), but committing to be as was Christ in the flesh, speaking (and for us also writing) only what comes forth from the S(s)pirit.

We in the natural realm are at such great disadvantage, for we are without a clue as to what is going on in the spirit realm around us. But God knows, of course, and He knows exactly when and what we should speak, and when we should say nothing. This way, too, He gets all the glory for whatever eternally profitable thing is birthed as the result of our words or our silence, and it also works to keep us from being puffed up---unless we forget---because we know it was all God and not any of us; we are but the conduit/empty vessel.

But of course, this by itself, as with anything on the list, is insufficient, for God's Gifts and callings are without repentance, and someone can go on to, well, fall from Grace if that's what your theology allows you to believe, and they can still operate in the Gift---but most likely if not altogether, it will gradually wane, and the Lord will allow other aspects of their life to fall apart in an effort to chasten them and bring them back into personal alignment.

Initially, however, the prophetic gift will require a maturing both in the area of the heart being further cleansed, and Fruits of the Spirit being increased---even though, again, someone can later resist these personally-edifying changes.

We likely should not drag the thread any more off into this, but since I myself added #9 to the list, and there was no prior mentioning of it, I thought a brief (ha) explanation in order. If anyone wants to pursue it, consider copying and pasting something of the above, and/or compose whatever new, and starting another thread here. It's a wonderful subject to pursue, and I assert so very dear to the Heavenly Fathers heart, and desire for us.

[Allegedly] In His Grace of Love for ALL of you, regardless of appearances to the contrary, brother jim

 

[brotherjim]

O another channel of this forum where the same thread starter was posted, menno offered from 1 John:

". . . the one who does not Love, does not know God."

I added from 3:14, "We know that we have passed out of death into Life, because we Love the brethren. He who does not Love abides in death."

Of course, one trick of our adversary is to get us to conclude that so and so is not one of the "brethren," and therefore we are not required to Love them. But of course God foreknew that, and we find numerous commandments to love our enemies, pray for them, bless them, etc.

And we cannot confine "brethren" to only those of our local congregation, or even out denomination---though even that in itself would disqualify many, no doubt---for whoever is of the Evangelical and charismatic faith (born-again) is a part of the body of Christ Jesus. Even the heathen love those of their own private groups, but the Word defines the Love referred to in 1 John as encompassing all, not just the lovable (Mt. 5:46-48; etc.).

After all, how lovable were each of us when God first Loved us?

And are we all not mostly unlovable still?

brother jim

 

[brotherjim]

Sorry, I misquoted Menno. In actuality, he stated:

"From 4:12 '...If we love one another, God dwells in us and His love has been perfected in us.'"

bj

 

[brotherjim]

On another channel today, mesue offered up the assurance of 1 John 5:13:

"These things I have written to you who believe in the Name of the son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal Life."

This confirmed what I stated before, that John's Epistle contained litmus tests, as John must have been referring to whatever "things" he wrote between 1:1 and 5:13 of his first epistle, correct?

I haven't scoured the epistle, but one passage I know of well, is 2:3-5:

"And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His Commandments.

"He that says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His Commandments, is a liar, and the Truth is not in him.

"But whoever keeps His Word, in him verily is the Love of God perfected: hereby we know that we are in Him."

So then, yet another indicator/litmus test as to whether we are in, or still in, the true Faith, would be if we find our lives are being lived in obedience to God's Commandments.

jim