So confused on the Sabbath...

[Athaliamum]

I sinned by choice in the past too. If it wasn't by choice, I would be blameless. Christ has died once and for all, covering ALL my sin. That's why I love him. Because he loved me first.

Not quite true. You would not be blameless just redeemed - there is a difference.

So what is the law good for now? To bless us if we keep it? Well, we don't keep it, do we? So, no condemnation from the law, and no blessing either. So I still don't see what I'm supposed to do with it, really.

Then maybe you need to do more research. The Torah is not there just as a set of rules. Following them will bless you in more ways then just because. Health and productivity not to mention a deeper fellowship with the almighty God who instituted them. Jesus never said anything against the Torah, why would he - they were his guidelines, he was against the preversion of them by men into legalism and hypocrasy.

Well, the mosaic law certainly includes the ten commandments. You could say the ten commandments are the very backbone of the mosaic law. So then we'd be left with only one commandment - to keep the sabbath. Which doesn't make sense IMO.

On this point however -word, but not in the way you meant it - it is actually argument against your position. The sacrfice of Christ fulfilled Torah not abolished it, this verse has been used many times. Despite how an individual might interpret the words of Paul to imply something else how can we oppose what Jesus has said himself!

What say those who believe that the Torah or law is down away with to this statement made by Jesus himself:

Matthew 24:12-13
...and many people's love will grow cold because of increased distance from Torah. But whoever holds out till the end will be delivered.(CJBV)

Then vs20.

Pray that you will not have to escape in winter or on Shabbat.

Why would escaping on Shabbat be as escaping in winter?

 

[Jerrysch]

So, my Sabbath question. Do we keep the Sabbath, do we not keep the Sabbath? Saturday is the Sabbath. The Lord's Day/Resurrection Day/Sunday/whatever-you-deem-it is when services are held at most churches around here. Thus, because of the nature of taking time to go to church as well as observing the Sabbath, that would leave Sunday afternoon and evening for work to be done.


Lissa

Hi Lissa, to whom was the Sabbath given? Was it given to all men for all time or to a select group of people? Scripture will tell you.

 

[Jerrysch]

I think at some point this weekend I am going to pull out my topical and do a thorough study on the Sabbath and legalism in Scripture.


Lissa

Very good!! That is where you will find your answers. Where is the Sabbath first spoken of? To whom was it given? How was it to be observed? What day was it to be observed upon? Why was it to be observed?

 

[Jerrysch]

The Sabbath is not kept by going to Church on Saturday (which is not a bad thing in itself - Orthodox have services every day so this is not an issue) or not doing any work. neither circumcision by cutting your skin.

The Sabbath has to do with resting. Ahhhhh! Kicking back, ah.

 

[Jerrysch]

To figure out if God wants us to keep the Sabbath today, we will answer these five questions:


1. How long did God say we should observe this commandment?

Where in Scripture does it say that the Sabbath applies to everyone?

 

[Jerrysch]

To figure out if God wants us to keep the Sabbath today, we will answer these five questions:


1. How long did God say we should observe this commandment?

2. Does the New Testament support us keeping this commandment?

3. Why did God want us to keep them in the past?

4. Does the reason of why God wanted us to keep them in the past still apply?

5. Is there any evidence that we will be keeping the Sabbath when Christ returns?


1. How long did God say we should observe this commandment?

Exodus 31:13-17
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you…Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Are you one of the children of Israel?

 

[Jerrysch]

There are many places in the scripture where the disciples went into the synagogue on the Sabbath to preach. Most people will say, they were only doing this only to witness to the Jews but they were still meeting on Sundays to have church. Here is a verse to think about…

First off the Sabbath is not Sunday, going to synagogue was not going to church, and the disciples went to Synagogue because they were Jews.

Where does Scripture indicate that one must go to church or synagogue on the Sabbath?

Lastly what day is Sabbath?

 

[Jerrysch]

3. Why did God want us to keep the Sabbath in the past?

It was a sign between God and Israel “that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you [Exodus 31:13]

Yet... It is not a sign between God and the church.

 

[Jerrysch]

"The Sabbath is part of the Decalogue - The Ten commandments. This alone forever settles the question as to the perpetuity of the institution...Until therefore it can be shown that the whole moral law has been repealed, the Sabbath will stand... Hope this helps, God Bless!

Yet there was more than just 10 there were 613 commandments. They were not given to all mankind but to a select subset of mankind. They were building upon them, but they have been fulfilled in Messiah. Yet there still is that which is sin, in fact, sin existed prior to the 613, that is before the giving of the 613 to ethnic Israel.

 

[Caissie]

Where in Scripture does it say that the Sabbath applies to everyone?

It doesn’t. It only applies to Israel. Then next question is “who is Israel? If you are not “Israel” you will not be in God’s kingdom.

Are you one of the children of Israel?

Yes. Physically (because my family are descendants of French and British people)…but most importantly, spiritually because I have pledged my allegiance to God’s Kingdom and Christ as my King. I have now be “grafted in” (Romans 11; Ephesians 2:11-19).

First off the Sabbath is not Sunday, going to synagogue was not going to church, and the disciples went to Synagogue because they were Jews.

The Gentiles also were there. Also, this is your assumption based on your preconceived idea that the law was abolished and that the disciples started meeting on Sunday.

Where does Scripture indicate that one must go to church or synagogue on the Sabbath?

It only says rest on that day. I never claimed it was required to go anywhere.

Lastly what day is Sabbath?

The Sabbath is on the seventh day. Starting Friday at sunset till Saturday at sunset.

Yet... It is not a sign between God and the church.

It is a sign between God and his people. Are you not one of his people? If you are not apart of Israel (grafted in), then you have no part in God’s new covenant.

And "all of Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:26)

Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Matthew 2:6
And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Acts 13:23-24
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

Revelation 21:12
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Yet there was more than just 10 there were 613 commandments. They were not given to all mankind but to a select subset of mankind. They were building upon them, but they have been fulfilled in Messiah. Yet there still is that which is sin, in fact, sin existed prior to the 613, that is before the giving of the 613 to ethnic Israel.

Jesus has not fulfilled the whole law yet. He will do that when he comes back.

Matthew 5:17-19 states: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Also, Mark 16:17 states: And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Now, I see heaven and I see earth. I will go out on a limb here and say they have not “passed away”. So, by looking at what Jesus said, that would mean the law has not passed away. Many will say, “Oh, but everything has been fulfilled”. To them I ask, “Are all prophecies in the Bible come to past?” And isn’t the Sabbaths (including the high Sabbaths) a “shadow of things to come”? If so what is the shadow of the Feast of Trumpets, or the Day of Atonement, or the seventh day Sabbath (and who will fulfill these shadows)?

 

[holo]

Not quite true. You would not be blameless just redeemed - there is a difference.

OK, but I'm still redeemed and blameless now, even if do happen to sin. My point was that sin is sin.

Then maybe you need to do more research. The Torah is not there just as a set of rules. Following them will bless you in more ways then just because. Health and productivity not to mention a deeper fellowship with the almighty God who instituted them. Jesus never said anything against the Torah, why would he - they were his guidelines, he was against the preversion of them by men into legalism and hypocrasy.

But lawkeeping IS legalism. Look at all those who claim to be under the law and following it. Surely you'll see that they're ALL hypocrites. Because hypocrisy is the only way out if the law isn't to destroy you.

About being blessed; am I blessed by not stealing because I'm commanded to? The real blessing is in getting the love of God in my heart so that I'll live righteously from the inside out.

Imagine the best driving teacher in the universe living inside you. Would you steel need to memorize traffic laws?

On this point however -word, but not in the way you meant it - it is actually argument against your position. The sacrfice of Christ fulfilled Torah not abolished it, this verse has been used many times. Despite how an individual might interpret the words of Paul to imply something else how can we oppose what Jesus has said himself!

Jesus himself said that there were still things to be revealed, and the apostle Paul got the mission to do so. Jesus onlly taught jews, and nobody understood what really happened on the cross. But Paul was called to teach it and preach it. Therefore we must see it in light of Paul's teachings and the revelations of the Spirit.

What say those who believe that the Torah or law is down away with to this statement made by Jesus himself:

Matthew 24:12-13
...and many people's love will grow cold because of increased distance from Torah. But whoever holds out till the end will be delivered.(CJBV)

Then vs20.

Pray that you will not have to escape in winter or on Shabbat.

Why would escaping on Shabbat be as escaping in winter?

Well, first of all you assume that everything God ever said to anyone applies to everyone at all times, which it obviously doesn't

And "disctance from Torah" doesn't mean "distance from the mosaic law". In fact, I'm as far from the mosaic law as I've ever been, and I have 5346 times more love and freedom and strength than I ever dreamed of under the law. I'm not a slave to sin anymore. I guess this is what they call being under the "law of Christ"

 

[Sleaker]

Some scripture that might help this out a bit:

[bible]Galatians 2:15-20[/bible]
[bible]Galatians 3:1-29[/bible]
[bible]Galatians 5:1-7[/bible]
[bible]Galatians 5:14-16[/bible]
[bible]Galatians 6:2-4[/bible]

[bible]Colossians 2:6-23[/bible]



While I did post a lot of verses I think it's important to note that living in the Spirit fulfills the law. Meaning it sums it up, it completes it, not only does walking in the Spirit uphold the law, but it takes the law one step further by being active. Living the law is based in what I'm not supposed to do, it is based in trying to be inactive toward sin. Living in the Spirit is focused in what I am supposed to be doing, it is based in being active doing good to all.
With all that scripture meantioned I think it would be good if we all just read Galatians and Colossians, because they deal with the topic of Law quite well.

 

[Jerrysch]

It doesn’t. It only applies to Israel. Then next question is “who is Israel? If you are not “Israel” you will not be in God’s kingdom.




?

That is not exactly true. God is now revieling His glory by way of the church, the body of Messiah. He has not finished with ethnic Israel, the last chapters of the book of Revelation (from 4 onward) show His work with them again in the future.

 

[Jerrysch]

Yes. Physically (because my family are descendants of French and British people)…

So that makes you Jewish? What gave you that idea?

 

[Caissie]

So that makes you Jewish? What gave you that idea?

The tribe of Judah (the Jews) are only one of the tribes of Israel. And actually, they separated themselves from Israel before King David. They later came back together with Israel, and then separated themselves from Israel again.

The tribe of Judah (the Jews) are not Israel.

I don't have much time to go into all that...you can find the scriptures here:

http://biblelaw101.com/The Jewish Nation should not Have Been Named Israel.html

After the above site proves that the Jews are not Israel, then the question is “who is Israel and who has the birthright”? There are many books on this subject that show that Great Britain has the birthright of Ephraim. Plus with more study you can find out all the other tribes positions today (Ruben = France, Dan = Denmark, etc.)

But one thing is for sure (clear from the bible) is the Jews are NOT Israel (although at one time they did make up oneof the 12 tribes of Israel).

 

[Sleaker]

The tribe of Judah (the Jews) are only one of the tribes of Israel. And actually, they separated themselves from Israel before King David. They later came back together with Israel, and then separated themselves from Israel again.

The tribe of Judah (the Jews) are not Israel.

I don't have much time to go into all that...you can find the scriptures here:

http://biblelaw101.com/The Jewish Nation should not Have Been Named Israel.html

After the above site proves that the Jews are not Israel, then the question is “who is Israel and who has the birthright”? There are many books on this subject that show that Great Britain has the birthright of Ephraim. Plus with more study you can find out all the other tribes positions today (Ruben = France, Dan = Denmark, etc.)

But one thing is for sure (clear from the bible) is the Jews are NOT Israel (although at one time they did make up oneof the 12 tribes of Israel).

You guys should re-read Galatians 3:1-29 that I posted up. Also God deals with his Church primarily. Romans 11 depicts this quite well. The whole idea that certain countries are given specific birthrights of the tribes of Israel isn't biblical at all, and it can't be proven. The bible tells us that the tribes were scattered and the only one to come back together was Judah. Like I stated first, re-read Galatians 3, and you see that the 'birthright' is to Christ, and those who are born of him.

 

[Jerrysch]

The tribe of Judah (the Jews) are only one of the tribes of Israel. And actually, they separated themselves from Israel before King David. They later came back together with Israel, and then separated themselves from Israel again.

The tribe of Judah (the Jews) are not Israel.

I don't have much time to go into all that...you can find the scriptures here:

http://biblelaw101.com/The Jewish Nation should not Have Been Named Israel.html

After the above site proves that the Jews are not Israel, then the question is “who is Israel and who has the birthright”? There are many books on this subject that show that Great Britain has the birthright of Ephraim. Plus with more study you can find out all the other tribes positions today (Ruben = France, Dan = Denmark, etc.)

But one thing is for sure (clear from the bible) is the Jews are NOT Israel (although at one time they did make up oneof the 12 tribes of Israel).

Well I'm sorry, I intended to refer to ethnic Israel. Not Jews. I have been gigged on this distinction before, I forgot I might have this trouble again. Yet the burden of proof remains with those who suggest that Europe was somehow peopled by them of ethnic Israel, not with them who deny that consept, That is a "doctrine" that the LDS try to suggest too!

 

[Jerrysch]

Yes. Physically (because my family are descendants of French and British people)…but most importantly, spiritually because I have pledged my allegiance to God’s Kingdom and Christ as my King. I have now be “grafted in” (Romans 11; Ephesians 2:11-19).




The Gentiles also were there. Also, this is your assumption based on your preconceived idea that the law was abolished and that the disciples started meeting on Sunday.




)?

Well the Sabbath is but one of the 613.

Do you observe the Day of atonement? What about the feast of Booths? How about the feast of trumpets? What about passover? The feast of unlevened bread? If you suggest that the 613 are still in force, do you still observe all of it? If not why?

 

[Athaliamum]

Do you observe the Day of atonement? What about the feast of Booths? How about the feast of trumpets? What about passover? The feast of unlevened bread? If you suggest that the 613 are still in force, do you still observe all of it? If not why?

IMO although the 613 are no longer needed for salvation they still do apply in some form or sort. As for the feasts appoiinted by God (not Jews) I think all of these still should apply. Please understand that I am not saying that they are necessary for salvation, but just like prayer they should be inter-twinned with our christian life. These feasts are not so much "Jewish" tradition, please seperate culture from faith, they are all indicators and celebrations of messiah, they were practiced by Jesus - not because he had to because he was a "Jew" - he is God he didn't have to do any of them but he did. Yes, today many do celebrate communion but this is not the same as passover, to say it has replaced these celebrations and times of reflection is just plain wrong.

Shabbat is not about legalism. Have you ever followed a messianic shabbat sedar? It is a truely beautiful thing, that becomes very special to the whole family and it is very different then going to church. My father was a baptist pastor, we did not follow shabbat because it was "legalism" but my husband is a messianic Jew, we now follow shabbat and I chose to do it because it is "good" to do it. There is a great leap between having to do something and doing it because it is good to do, it should not be preverted into leagalism nor should it be ignored - there is a balance.

 

[Caissie]

Well the Sabbath is but one of the 613.

Do you observe the Day of atonement? What about the feast of Booths? How about the feast of trumpets? What about passover? The feast of unlevened bread? If you suggest that the 613 are still in force, do you still observe all of it? If not why?

I do observe the feasts of Yahweh.