So confused on the Sabbath...

[Bernergirl]

Sin existed prior to the giving of the 613, and even though the 613 have been fulfilled in Messiah, sin still exists.

Back then, there was only one command: Don't you eat off that tree! (EDIT: As for the Biblical period between that and the Mosaic law, I'd have to do follow up study. Sorry; my bad for forgetting a whole period in history in my post )

God bless,

Lissa

 

[Jerrysch]

Back then, there was only one command: Don't you eat off that tree! (EDIT: As for the Biblical period between that and the Mosaic law, I'd have to do follow up study. Sorry; my bad for forgetting a whole period in history in my post )

God bless,

Lissa

Well at first that was the only command, but there are things which always have been wrong as well as always will be. A good instance was murder. At the time when Cain killed Able, the Scripture did not indicate that anyone was informed that murder was wrong, and yet God indicated that it was wrong did not He?

 

[christianmomof3]

I like this article:
http://www.gnbcbible.com/sabbath.htm

 

[Jerrysch]

I like this article:
http://www.gnbcbible.com/sabbath.htm

Your link is most informative and I think this whole discussion is summed up in;

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]SHOULD THE SABBATH BE OBSERVED TODAY?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]No. God never commanded a single Gentile or Christian to keep the Sabbath Day. The Sabbath was strictly a sign between God and Israel.[/FONT]



Good find

 

[Iosias]

I would suggest you buy Iain D Campbell's On the first day of the week. He spoke at Durham Presbyterian Church a few months ago and knew his stuff.

http://www.dayone.co.uk/master.html...ooks/details/on-the-first-day-of-the-week.htm

 

[Iosias]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]SHOULD THE SABBATH BE OBSERVED TODAY?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]No. God never commanded a single Gentile or Christian to keep the Sabbath Day. The Sabbath was strictly a sign between God and Israel.[/FONT]

That is the dispensational point of view but Covenant theology teaches te opposite.

 

[Iosias]

The Heidelberg Catechism states:

Question 103​

Q. What does God require in the fourth commandment?
A. First, that the ministry of the gospel and the schools be maintained[1] and that, especially on the day of rest, I diligently attend the church of God[2] to hear God's Word,[3] to use the sacraments,[4] to call publicly upon the LORD,[5] and to give Christian offerings for the poor.[6] Second, that all the days of my life I rest from my evil works, let the LORD work in me through His Holy Spirit, and so begin in this life the eternal sabbath.[7]
[1] Deu_6:4-9; Deu_6:20-25; 1Co_9:13-14;2Ti_2:2; 2Ti_3:13-17; Tit_1:5. [2] Deu_12:5-12; Psa_40:9-10; Psa_68:26; Act_2:42-47; Heb_10:23-25. [3] Rom_10:14-17; 1Co_14:26-33; 1Ti_4:13. [4] 1Co_11:23-24. [5] Col_3:16; 1Ti_2:1. [6] Psa_50:14; 1Co_16:2; 2Co_8:1-24; 2Co_9:1-15. [7] Isa_66:23; Heb_4:9-11.



Heed the word of God:

Isa 58:13-14 "If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."

 

[Bernergirl]

Sabbath. Between God and Israel. We are grafted into Israel, are we not?

This is something I'm genuinely trying to understand. I'm confused and I want to study further. If you have a good argument, please, show me.

God bless you,

Lissa

 

[Iosias]

Sabbath. Between God and Israel. We are grafted into Israel, are we not?

This is something I'm genuinely trying to understand. I'm confused and I want to study further. If you have a good argument, please, show me.

God bless you,

Lissa

God's plan is to have a people for his own possession and in the OT they were called Israel. But as propesised in the OT the gentiles would be brought in and so gentiles are grafted into the tree. With this people God has made known his law called Moral and one part of that was to keep the seventh day holy. In the OT that was Saturday but in the NT, Christ, as the Lord of the Sabbath changed the day to the Sunday and so Christians keep the Sunday as their sabbath but call it the Lord's day.

Try reading:
1. http://www.apuritansmind.com/Baptism/KarlbergMarkReformedInterpretationMosaic.htm
2. http://www.apuritansmind.com/TheLordsDay/TheLordsDay.htm
3. http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/subcats.asp?id=13|26

 

[Jerrysch]

That is the dispensational point of view but Covenant theology teaches te opposite.

You are very correct, and the reason why is that CT does not maintain the distinction between Israel and the church as DT does. CT actually abandons its otherwise literal hermenunic when it comes to issues regarding Israel. CT desires to see the church throughout the Old(ert) Testament while DT recognizes that it was still an unformed idea in the mind of God. If one turely intends to understand Scripture from a literal standpoint, CT is not the method, for the reason given.

 

[Jerrysch]

God's plan is to have a people for his own possession and in the OT they were called Israel. But as propesised in the OT the gentiles would be brought in and so gentiles are grafted into the tree. With this people God has made known his law called Moral and one part of that was to keep the seventh day holy. In the OT that was Saturday but in the NT, Christ, as the Lord of the Sabbath changed the day to the Sunday and so Christians keep the Sunday as their sabbath but call it the Lord's day.

The problem with this approach, one problem that is, is that God indicated that the Mosiac Law, all 613 provisions was done away by the destruction of the Temple. Many of the key elements of the 613 just cannot be completed without a Temple or at least the Tabernacle. The MOsiac Covenant was a temporaty one which was fulfilled in Messiah. This is the clear teaching of the New(er) Testament. The Sabbath, as a provision of the Mosiac Law was done away with as well, by way of fulfillment. Should christians meet together on a regular basis for preaching, teaching and worship?? Yes, but don't refer to it as a Sabbath, for it is not and actually as the Sabbath is defined in the Mosiac Law, it isn't even what Christians who try to keep the Sabbath today think it is.

 

[Iosias]

The problem with this approach, one problem that is, is that God indicated that the Mosiac Law, all 613 provisions was done away by the destruction of the Temple. Many of the key elements of the 613 just cannot be completed without a Temple or at least the Tabernacle. The MOsiac Covenant was a temporaty one which was fulfilled in Messiah. This is the clear teaching of the New(er) Testament. The Sabbath, as a provision of the Mosiac Law was done away with as well, by way of fulfillment. Should christians meet together on a regular basis for preaching, teaching and worship?? Yes, but don't refer to it as a Sabbath, for it is not and actually as the Sabbath is defined in the Mosiac Law, it isn't even what Christians who try to keep the Sabbath today think it is.

Joseph Pipa The Lord's Day refutes this fairly well. Colossians does not teach that the Sabbath which preexisted the Mosaic Law was not done away with when the Law was fulfilled.

 

[Sleaker]

Joseph Pipa The Lord's Day refutes this fairly well. Colossians does not teach that the Sabbath which preexisted the Mosaic Law was not done away with when the Law was fulfilled.

Quite true, Colossians teaches us that we can observe ANY day, ANY feast, and ANY new moon to the glory of God. So if we choose to observe a saturday or a sunday then don't judge your brother over which day he chooses.. Paul talks a lot about not judging people who choose to obey certain laws, for when they choose to obey the Law they are not doing God any disservice.

Lets take a look at the Sabbath: Does God require it? I'd say no, since we see in Paul's writing that it's not about any specific day, I get the idea that we have moved beyond the Levitical Law and into a 'new covenant' which is base in Love first, mercy second, and Grace third. Now Law is different than a command, when Jesus speaks about the Law it makes me think he is referring to the specific Levitical Law. But when I see him tell us to 'love the Lord your God, and love others.' I see that this is not a Law, but that it is a commandment, and I think there is a definite distinction between the two. And this is why: The Law was designed to atone for ones sin, and it was a gaurd of peoples hearts as described in the NT. But the commandments given in the NT by Jesus are not for salvation, they are instruction on how to live. He doesn't tell us that we will be saved because we will do these things, no many many times Jesus declares that He is the only way to the father, and that no one can get to the Father except through Jesus. So I must make a distinction between the commands that Jesus declares and the Law.
The next thing I take notice of is that Jesus declared:
[bible]Matthew 7:12[/bible]

The indication here is that Love is what the Prophets and Law are summed up into. To Love God and Love your neighbor. So in Love I fulfill the Law, maybe not by doing the law, but the picture I get is that Love is higher, it's a higher road to take, and it's a lot harder to do! Isn't that what's suggested in the next 2 verses?

[bible]Matthew 7:13-14[/bible]

When I can see that Jesus sums the OT into love, I can see why Paul rights the things he does in Colossians... See the idea is that if I love God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength, I wont have to give Him one day a week.. Why? Because He's already got my life.. When I made Jesus Lord of my life I was saved. Not when I believed in what He had done, for scriptures say that even the demons believe what He did, it is when I put faith into what Christ did and Faith pushed me to turn my life to Jesus, meaning He is now Lord. Now because of this transformation in me, I am asked to follow Jesus command, to love God and love others. And that's where it sits, If I love Him as Lord, I will give every day of my life to Him! There's no need to give a single day of the week, but for the sake of others Paul urges us not to Judge each other on this matter because we can't do it in love. If one says he lives all days then good! If one says he sets aside a certain day then good! Because it's not about recognition of what we do, the issue is about How we choose to love God. Paul doesn't want us to Judge each other about things like this because we are Judging how other people Love God.

I hope you guys understand this..
God Bless!

 

[Iosias]

Quite true, Colossians teaches us that we can observe ANY day, ANY feast, and ANY new moon to the glory of God. So if we choose to observe a saturday or a sunday then don't judge your brother over which day he chooses...Lets take a look at the Sabbath: Does God require it? I'd say no, since we see in Paul's writing that it's not about any specific day, I get the idea that we have moved beyond the Levitical Law and into a 'new covenant' which is base in Love first, mercy second, and Grace third.

The Sabbath began when?

[BIBLE]Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Genesis 2:1-3[/bible]

This is a creation ordinance. Then when Jehovah (the covenant name of God) spoke to his covenant people he said:

[BIBLE]
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: Exodus 20:8-10
[/bible]

Why remember? What were they to remember? The basis of the commandment in the 10 Commandments is based upon what?

[BIBLE]For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:11[/bible]

So the Sabbath was not specific to the Jews as such. What was specific to the Jews or Israel (God's OT covenant community) were the Levitical laws:

[BIBLE]And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD: 1 Chronicles 23:31[/bible]

[BIBLE]
Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles. 2 Chronicles 8:13

[/bible]

Now these Levitical sacrifices pointed to Christ and so were fulfilled in him.

So what was Paul refering to here?

[BIBLE]Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2:16, 17[/bible]

Well:
1. He was refering to the many OT rituals not the Sabbath Day but the Levitical temple worship.
2. Check the context..Paul was addressing Gentile Christians who were being taught by Orthodox Jews or Jewish Christians that to be the true people of God they had to observe OT worship patterns. So to those Gentile Christians Paul was saying let no one be judge over you of observing new moons, etc.

 

[Jerrysch]

Joseph Pipa The Lord's Day refutes this fairly well. Colossians does not teach that the Sabbath which preexisted the Mosaic Law was not done away with when the Law was fulfilled.

Who?

The Sabbath may have indeed preceeded the Law of Moses, yet no where is man obligated to observe it. It is in the Law of Moses the 613, where the observance was given to ethnic Israel (and no other group) to set them appart as the people of YHWH. Since the Mosiac Law with its 613 provisions were done away with by way of fulfillment in Messiah, it is then not manditory on anyone anymore. But, may I ask, why all the attention on this one single commandment? What about commandment #53? How about #158? Are you as excited in fullfilling these two as in keeping the Sabbath? What about Commandments 350-440? Are you just as concerned with keeping these as keeping the Sabbath? Hey if you want to be under the law, get under it!! And no picking and choosing either if you are suggesting that the Sabbath still applies then so do the other 612, right?

 

[Jerrysch]

Quite true, Colossians teaches us that we can observe ANY day, ANY feast, and ANY new moon to the glory of God. So if we choose to observe a saturday or a sunday then don't judge your brother over which day he chooses.. Paul talks a lot about not judging people who choose to obey certain laws, for when they choose to obey the Law they are not doing God any disservice.

Lets take a look at the Sabbath: Does God require it? I'd say no, since we see in Paul's writing that it's not about any specific day, I get the idea that we have moved beyond the Levitical Law and into a 'new covenant' which is base in Love first, mercy second, and Grace third. Now Law is different than a command, when Jesus speaks about the Law it makes me think he is referring to the specific Levitical Law. But when I see him tell us to 'love the Lord your God, and love others.' I see that this is not a Law, but that it is a commandment, and I think there is a definite distinction between the two. And this is why: The Law was designed to atone for ones sin, and it was a gaurd of peoples hearts as described in the NT. But the commandments given in the NT by Jesus are not for salvation, they are instruction on how to live. He doesn't tell us that we will be saved because we will do these things, no many many times Jesus declares that He is the only way to the father, and that no one can get to the Father except through Jesus. So I must make a distinction between the commands that Jesus declares and the Law.
The next thing I take notice of is that Jesus declared:
[bible]Matthew 7:12[/bible]

The indication here is that Love is what the Prophets and Law are summed up into. To Love God and Love your neighbor. So in Love I fulfill the Law, maybe not by doing the law, but the picture I get is that Love is higher, it's a higher road to take, and it's a lot harder to do! Isn't that what's suggested in the next 2 verses?

[bible]Matthew 7:13-14[/bible]

When I can see that Jesus sums the OT into love, I can see why Paul rights the things he does in Colossians... See the idea is that if I love God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength, I wont have to give Him one day a week.. Why? Because He's already got my life.. When I made Jesus Lord of my life I was saved. Not when I believed in what He had done, for scriptures say that even the demons believe what He did, it is when I put faith into what Christ did and Faith pushed me to turn my life to Jesus, meaning He is now Lord. Now because of this transformation in me, I am asked to follow Jesus command, to love God and love others. And that's where it sits, If I love Him as Lord, I will give every day of my life to Him! There's no need to give a single day of the week, but for the sake of others Paul urges us not to Judge each other on this matter because we can't do it in love. If one says he lives all days then good! If one says he sets aside a certain day then good! Because it's not about recognition of what we do, the issue is about How we choose to love God. Paul doesn't want us to Judge each other about things like this because we are Judging how other people Love God.

I hope you guys understand this..
God Bless!

You are correct in this I love a good Sabbath ahhhh, complete with a good nap.


Paul when he speaks regarding the Law it is the Mosiac Law to which he refers, it with its 613 provisions. He also indicates that it had been fulfilled in Messiah. When Jesus, in his earthly ministry, preached, He was speaking to those of ethnic Israel, they were at that time under the Law. It had not been fulfilled at that time. Upon His death, the Mosiac Law was fulfilled completely. Now if you or anyone else desires to keep the 613 out of honor to God, well and good, but to state that Gentiles must keep any of them is not what the Scripture states.

 

[Jerrysch]

The Sabbath began when?

[bible]Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Genesis 2:1-3[/bible]

This is a creation ordinance. Then when Jehovah (the covenant name of God) spoke to his covenant people he said:

[bible]
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: Exodus 20:8-10
[/bible]

.

This command was given to ethnic Israel not to the world at large.

 

[Jerrysch]

So the Sabbath was not specific to the Jews as such. What was specific to the Jews or Israel (God's OT covenant community) were the Levitical laws:

[bible]And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD: 1 Chronicles 23:31[/bible]

[bible]
Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles. 2 Chronicles 8:13

[/bible]

Every bit of these Scriptures were given to ethnic Israel, they were recorded by thier prophets. The command to honor the Sabbath was not given prior to the Exodus. At at that time it was given to ethnic Israel and no one else.

 

[Jerrysch]

So the Sabbath was not specific to the Jews as such. What was specific to the Jews or Israel (God's OT covenant community) were the Levitical laws:

It very well was specific to ethnic Israel and it was a part of the Levitical laws. All of this is composed into what has become known as the Mosiac Law. 613 provisions all of them binding upon those of ethnic Israel alone. You have yet to produce any Scripture that indicates that these are bibding upon all men for all time. And yet with 613, why all the fuss over one while 612 get ignored? Why is that? Can you answer that?

 

[Iosias]

Who?

The Sabbath may have indeed preceeded the Law of Moses, yet no where is man obligated to observe it. It is in the Law of Moses the 613, where the observance was given to ethnic Israel (and no other group) to set them appart as the people of YHWH. Since the Mosiac Law with its 613 provisions were done away with by way of fulfillment in Messiah, it is then not manditory on anyone anymore. But, may I ask, why all the attention on this one single commandment? What about commandment #53? How about #158? Are you as excited in fullfilling these two as in keeping the Sabbath? What about Commandments 350-440? Are you just as concerned with keeping these as keeping the Sabbath? Hey if you want to be under the law, get under it!! And no picking and choosing either if you are suggesting that the Sabbath still applies then so do the other 612, right?

I think you are confused here my friend. There were the many sabbaths which were specific to Israel however the 4th commandment which was a republication of what already existed was not Israel specific.

The Sabbath was a CREATION ORDINANCE.
Marriage was a CREATION ORDINANCE.

As creation ordinances they are permanent. The death of Christ fulfilled the OT worship and the many sabbaths but the seventh day Sabbath is continuous. If I could suggest you read some of the material below. Esp. Ryle and Watson.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/TheLordsDay/TheLordsDay.htm