So confused on the Sabbath...

[Jerrysch]

I do observe the feasts of Yahweh.

How is this possible without the Temple or tabernacle?

 

[Caissie]

How is this possible without the Temple or tabernacle?

I do everything that is required of me. Since there is no more temple or Levites then I don't do the things that require a temple or Levite. But when it says take off that day, I take off...when it says fast that day, I fast.

 

[Jerrysch]

I do everything that is required of me. Since there is no more temple or Levites then I don't do the things that require a temple or Levite. But when it says take off that day, I take off...when it says fast that day, I fast.

So then, respectfully, you really don't keep the feast do you? You can't can you? Nor can any of ethnic Israel could they?

 

[Caissie]

So then, respectfully, you really don't keep the feast do you? You can't can you? Nor can any of ethnic Israel could they?

Let us say that you worked for a resturant and the boss tells you to sweep up the floors, put the trash in the trash can, then put the trash in the dumpster outside when you close the resturant.

One night you are about to close up and you notice the dumpster is so full that you can not put the trash in the dumpster. So you:

a) don't sweep up the trash at all
b) sweep up the trash and put the trash bag next to the dumpster

Both a and b are not to the letter of the law. Do you think your boss will write you up for choosing "b"? I don't. I think your boss is probably understanding enough to know you can't do the impossible. Do you think your boss will promote the person that chooses "a"? I don't.

Or lets say you are a bomb dog handler for a company. This company has to check all trucks coming into their compound. Only one bomb dog handler can go on vacation at one time or they would not be able to protect the compound. If one handler has already taken off that day, do you think the other handler would be sinning by not taking off that day? I don't (even under the 'Old Covenant').

 

[Jerrysch]

Let us say that you worked for a resturant and the boss tells you to sweep up the floors, put the trash in the trash can, then put the trash in the dumpster outside when you close the resturant.

One night you are about to close up and you notice the dumpster is so full that you can not put the trash in the dumpster. So you:

a) don't sweep up the trash at all
b) sweep up the trash and put the trash bag next to the dumpster

Both a and b are not to the letter of the law. Do you think your boss will write you up for choosing "b"? I don't. I think your boss is probably understanding enough to know you can't do the impossible. Do you think your boss will promote the person that chooses "a"? I don't.

So, you are suggesting that YHWH "grades on a curve"? Your illistration is very much like an event refered to in Scripture 1 Sam 13:

5 The Philistines assembled to fight Israel, with three thousand [d] chariots, six thousand charioteers, and soldiers as numerous as the sand on the seashore. They went up and camped at Micmash, east of Beth Aven. 6 When the men of Israel saw that their situation was critical and that their army was hard pressed, they hid in caves and thickets, among the rocks, and in pits and cisterns. 7 Some Hebrews even crossed the Jordan to the land of Gad and Gilead.
Saul remained at Gilgal, and all the troops with him were quaking with fear. 8 He waited seven days, the time set by Samuel; but Samuel did not come to Gilgal, and Saul's men began to scatter. 9 So he said, "Bring me the burnt offering and the fellowship offerings. [e] " And Saul offered up the burnt offering. 10 Just as he finished making the offering, Samuel arrived, and Saul went out to greet him.

11 "What have you done?" asked Samuel.
Saul replied, "When I saw that the men were scattering, and that you did not come at the set time, and that the Philistines were assembling at Micmash, 12 I thought, 'Now the Philistines will come down against me at Gilgal, and I have not sought the LORD's favor.' So I felt compelled to offer the burnt offering." 13 "You acted foolishly," Samuel said. "You have not kept the command the LORD your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time. 14 But now your kingdom will not endure; the LORD has sought out a man after his own heart and appointed him leader of his people, because you have not kept the LORD's command."

Saul's intention was noble, yet it was not in accordance with the instruction of YHWH.

 

[Sleaker]

Ahh so you are saying
[bible]Psalm 51:17[/bible]

Honestly I still think you guys need to go back and read Galatians if you want to argue the law, for it specifically shows how Abraham was counted as righteous not by following God, but by having faith in what God told Him? Did Abraham do both? Certainly, so we are presented with Christianity that both requires Faith and Works (obedience and the law). But the obedience that is required of us is not some ritual or sacrifice, although the Lord can be pleased with us when we do these things unto Him. But the catch is that only the man (or woman) of faith is pleasing to the Lord, in so doing rituals and feasts, and following God's law.

 

[Jerrysch]

Ahh so you are saying
[bible]Psalm 51:17[/bible]

Honestly I still think you guys need to go back and read Galatians if you want to argue the law, for it specifically shows how Abraham was counted as righteous not by following God, but by having faith in what God told Him? Did Abraham do both? Certainly, so we are presented with Christianity that both requires Faith and Works (obedience and the law). But the obedience that is required of us is not some ritual or sacrifice, although the Lord can be pleased with us when we do these things unto Him. But the catch is that only the man (or woman) of faith is pleasing to the Lord, in so doing rituals and feasts, and following God's law.

You seem to have posted in a circle. A person is justified by faith without any work at all. Abraham was justified by faith plus nothing Paul indicates that justification is by faith plus nothing. Justification has nothing to do with works, the Law given to ethnic Israel by way of Moses did nothing to make a man/woman justified, it presented witness that they were sinners.

What I have been trying to present here on this thread is that the inordinate attention towards the Sabbath and then the ignoring the other 612 commandments of the Law is not logical, I mean if you want to be under the Mosiac Law, you need ot submit to the 613 not just pick and choose those which seem "spiritual" for some reason or other. Many here desire to be "under" this Sabbath restriction while ignoring the others, and some even do not know what the intent of the Sabbath was, it was a day of rest. Not a requirement ot go to church, but a day to rest.

 

[Caissie]

Saul's intention was noble, yet it was not in accordance with the instruction of YHWH.

Sticking with the restaurant analogy, Saul would be ignoring the boss' clean up procedures and deciding for himself what is the best clean up procedures (like practicing Christmas).

On the other hand, most Christians would rather celebrate the pagan "Christmas" and "Easter" (which are a counterfeit of the feast of Tabernacles and Passover and the days of Unleavened Bread) than to celebrate YHWH's feasts.

The chances are high that you celebrate Christmas and Easter. Have you ever learned stuff like this in your Easter service...http://biblelaw101.com/Christ%20is%20Our%20Passover.html(I grew up in many Christian churches, and I had to research all that on my own, because no service ever went into this). If we celebrated YHWH's feasts (that he set up to point to the Messiah) the average Christian would not only be in awe of the fulfillment of the spring feasts, but will have a better knowledge about his second coming too.

Also see: http://biblelaw101.com/Should%20We%20Celebrate%20Christmas.html

 

[Caissie]

What I have been trying to present here on this thread is that the inordinate attention towards the Sabbath and then the ignoring the other 612 commandments of the Law is not logical, I mean if you want to be under the Mosiac Law, you need ot submit to the 613 not just pick and choose those which seem "spiritual" for some reason or other. Many here desire to be "under" this Sabbath restriction while ignoring the others, and some even do not know what the intent of the Sabbath was, it was a day of rest. Not a requirement ot go to church, but a day to rest.

You have a good point. Either the law is in place or it is not. I believe it is. All 613 (plus the ones that the Jews missed when counting...like a leper yelling out "unclean, unclean" when someone approaches him).

 

[Sleaker]

You seem to have posted in a circle. A person is justified by faith without any work at all. Abraham was justified by faith plus nothing Paul indicates that justification is by faith plus nothing. Justification has nothing to do with works, the Law given to ethnic Israel by way of Moses did nothing to make a man/woman justified, it presented witness that they were sinners.

What I have been trying to present here on this thread is that the inordinate attention towards the Sabbath and then the ignoring the other 612 commandments of the Law is not logical, I mean if you want to be under the Mosiac Law, you need ot submit to the 613 not just pick and choose those which seem "spiritual" for some reason or other. Many here desire to be "under" this Sabbath restriction while ignoring the others, and some even do not know what the intent of the Sabbath was, it was a day of rest. Not a requirement ot go to church, but a day to rest.

Ooh yes, I know what you are saying, I'm echoing the same thing that we are saved by faith. I'm saying that God is pleased by obedience, doing. When I think of faith I understand that faith requires action. If my faith doesn't push me to Do it is dead faith. Abraham was counted righteous because of His faith, for he believed what God told him about his son and obeyed to take his only son up and sacrifice him. But God provided a way out. I see that Abrahams Faith became manifest when he Obeyed. If Abraham had not obeyed, it would not have been counted to him as righteousness, and it would have shown that He did not have faith in what God had told him.. That's all I'm merely suggesting.

But like you said, it's not about the doing the Law to be saved, faith in Christ pushes me to a place of action though, because I know what he did for me, so should I do the same.

What is stated in Galatians is that we shouldn't judge each other for special days, or feasts, or laws that we think we should follow. The point is that if the Holy Spirit convicts you to place a law in your life to gaurd your heart then by all means adhere to it, but that never means that the law makes you more righteous or holy.

Someone stated that those who celebrate Christmas and Easter are celebrating pagan holidays, I would suggest that it's not about the day, or the time that you are celebrating, but rather What you are celebrating. Christians for the most part, honor Christs birth and his death on those two days, so I would echo what Galatians says, don't judge those people for holding a special feast or holiday in remembrance of Christ. It's not a matter of 'right or wrong holiday' The issue is where your heart is before God, and if you truly desire to be intimate with him, He doesn't care what day you have a feast or celebration in remembrance of Him on.

 

[Jerrysch]

Sticking with the restaurant analogy, Saul would be ignoring the boss' clean up procedures and deciding for himself what is the best clean up procedures (like practicing Christmas).

On the other hand, most Christians would rather celebrate the pagan "Christmas" and "Easter" (which are a counterfeit of the feast of Tabernacles and Passover and the days of Unleavened Bread) than to celebrate YHWH's feasts.

The chances are high that you celebrate Christmas and Easter. Have you ever learned stuff like this in your Easter service...http://biblelaw101.com/Christ is Our Passover.html(I grew up in many Christian churches, and I had to research all that on my own, because no service ever went into this). If we celebrated YHWH's feasts (that he set up to point to the Messiah) the average Christian would not only be in awe of the fulfillment of the spring feasts, but will have a better knowledge about his second coming too.

Also see: http://biblelaw101.com/Should We Celebrate Christmas.html

Well, let me say this at theis point. Untill I recognized that the NT was given in a Jewish context, I really did not even have the fundamentals to really understand any of it. Every Christian who has ever been owes something to those of ethnic Israel who went before him/her, I mean, they are a walking witness to the validity of Scripture .

But having said this, I think it needs to be understood that the Mosiac Covenant has been done away with chiefly by the work of Messiah. One just cannot try to keep it because the Temple has been removed by the work of YHWH. All that the 613 can now do is convict the sinner of his sin and point him/her to the completed work of Messiah.

 

[shadowmoses]

Who knows what the sabbath day is? Sunday or Saturday,doe it really matter? It is in the ten commandments so there has to be some truth and point in it being there?Who knows?

 

[Jerrysch]

Who knows what the sabbath day is? Sunday or Saturday,doe it really matter? It is in the ten commandments so there has to be some truth and point in it being there?Who knows?

It is from sundown on Friday night till sundown on Saturday night. Does it really matter? If you consider yourself under the Mosiac law it does!! But the law of Moese is not just limited to the 10, it consistes of 613 commandments which have been fulfilled in Messiah.

 

[BrightCandle]

Well, let me say this at theis point. Untill I recognized that the NT was given in a Jewish context, I really did not even have the fundamentals to really understand any of it. Every Christian who has ever been owes something to those of ethnic Israel who went before him/her, I mean, they are a walking witness to the validity of Scripture .

But having said this, I think it needs to be understood that the Mosiac Covenant has been done away with chiefly by the work of Messiah. One just cannot try to keep it because the Temple has been removed by the work of YHWH. All that the 613 can now do is convict the sinner of his sin and point him/her to the completed work of Messiah.

Your reasoning does not make sense, if the Ten Commandments convict the sinner of his sin, and then he goes to Jesus to be cleansed from sin, and then when he arises in newness of life, he is free to go back and sin? No, that is a false Gospel from the Devil himself! When a sinner is forgiven, he is then to be filled the Spirit, as Jesus was, and empowered to live a new life free sin, but not free to keep on sinning, all the while claiming to be a Christian!

 

[Caissie]

But the law of Moese is not just limited to the 10, it consistes of 613 commandments...

This implies that with so many laws to follow it would be extremely burdensome (which is not true).

All 613 do not apply to me so I am in compliance by default. For instance:

1. I am not a Levite,
2. I am not a soldier
3. I am not a king
4. I do not have leprosy
5. I am not a farmer
6. I do not have servants
7. I don't have a flat roof (so I don't have to worry about people falling off my roof and getting hurt)
8. I am not a Nazarite

Add to the fact that the temple is destroyed and that most laws can be summed up into one, for instance, if I only have sex with my wife, I will be in compliance with 22 of the 613.

Most Christians are in compliance with close 600 of these laws already. And if they "remembered the Sabbaths (including the feasts)" then there are only little more that needs to be done. Most of these are fairly simple, like posting the commandments on your door post; not lending money on interest to a fellow Israelite; and teaching the law to your children.

Again, there are actually more than 613...you should read though the books of Moses for your self. Also there are many from the Jewish count that are not in the Bible (the Jews say they are in the bible, but you can see for yourself that it does not say the same thing that the Jews say) like "Not to put any Jew to shame (Lev. 19:17)", “To read the Shema in the morning and at night (Deut. 6:7)”, and “To bind tefillin on the head (Deut. 6:8)”.

Anyway, check them out...you will find that the average real Christian already is in compliance with almost 600 of these laws already. Then look at the ones that you are not in compliance with and try to find out what YHWH’s purpose of giving that law was in the first place. YHWH didn’t make up a bunch of laws just so it would be hard to enter into the Kingdom…they all had a purpose.

Check out: http://www.biblelaw101.com/ for a good study of God’s laws.

 

[shadowmoses]

I don't mean to put my views on anyone else so I'm just going state what I know and beleive.

Historical evidence shows that christians were observing the sabbath day several centuries after christ had come.They were observing with the perception that it was a day set aside by god ,after that time christians began observing as a day to commemorate when jesus was resurected on the first day.

So what is the sabbath -saturday or sunday?People say the sabbath is sunday yet forget they commemorate sunday as the first day which christ arose.whereas the sabbath was established as the seventh day by god to be served as a day of rest for his creations. There is no scriptural or biblical evidence to show any transference of the day,perhaps there is you might be thinking,you might be right.

But knowing that the sabbath was served on saturday for centuries after christ and historically speaking we can extract a statement issued by a pagan-constantine issuing sunday to be the sabath day puts alot of confusion and doubt in my mind to the authenticity of claims that you might be thinking of to back up the importance of sunday.

The sabbath commandment is clearly stated in the 10 commandments do we need to look no further. Sometimes its hard to see the truth even when its right in front of you. Don't be blinded. it is good to have faith in what your parents taught you or what has been preached to you ,thats a good thing .Just trust in god what he says is stronger than what anyone else says.

 

[BrightCandle]

It is from sundown on Friday night till sundown on Saturday night. Does it really matter? If you consider yourself under the Mosiac law it does!! But the law of Moese is not just limited to the 10, it consistes of 613 commandments which have been fulfilled in Messiah.

The last I've heard, Baptists believe that the Ten Commandments are still valid and binding. And if that is indeed the case, then the fourth commandment would be binding upon Baptists, therefore all Baptists should become Seventh day Baptists, if they are really serious about following the Bible and the Bible only.

 

[Jerrysch]

Your reasoning does not make sense, if the Ten Commandments convict the sinner of his sin, and then he goes to Jesus to be cleansed from sin, and then when he arises in newness of life, he is free to go back and sin? No, that is a false Gospel from the Devil himself! When a sinner is forgiven, he is then to be filled the Spirit, as Jesus was, and empowered to live a new life free sin, but not free to keep on sinning, all the while claiming to be a Christian!

Sin existed prior to the giving of the 613, and even though the 613 have been fulfilled in Messiah, sin still exists.

 

[Jerrysch]

This implies that with so many laws to follow it would be extremely burdensome (which is not true).

All 613 do not apply to me so I am in compliance by default. For instance:

1. I am not a Levite,
2. I am not a soldier
3. I am not a king
4. I do not have leprosy
5. I am not a farmer
6. I do not have servants
7. I don't have a flat roof (so I don't have to worry about people falling off my roof and getting hurt)
8. I am not a Nazarite

Add to the fact that the temple is destroyed and that most laws can be summed up into one, for instance, if I only have sex with my wife, I will be in compliance with 22 of the 613.

Most Christians are in compliance with close 600 of these laws already. And if they "remembered the Sabbaths (including the feasts)" then there are only little more that needs to be done. Most of these are fairly simple, like posting the commandments on your door post; not lending money on interest to a fellow Israelite; and teaching the law to your children.

Again, there are actually more than 613...you should read though the books of Moses for your self. Also there are many from the Jewish count that are not in the Bible (the Jews say they are in the bible, but you can see for yourself that it does not say the same thing that the Jews say) like "Not to put any Jew to shame (Lev. 19:17)", “To read the Shema in the morning and at night (Deut. 6:7)”, and “To bind tefillin on the head (Deut. 6:8)”.

Anyway, check them out...you will find that the average real Christian already is in compliance with almost 600 of these laws already. Then look at the ones that you are not in compliance with and try to find out what YHWH’s purpose of giving that law was in the first place. YHWH didn’t make up a bunch of laws just so it would be hard to enter into the Kingdom…they all had a purpose.

Check out: http://www.biblelaw101.com/ for a good study of God’s laws.

Very interesting indeed, yet my point is that the 613 have all been fulfilled in Messiah and that they were given to ethnic Israel and no one else, as a part of a temporary covenant which was given to Moses, that which is known as the Mosiac covenant. It is no longer in force.

 

[Jerrysch]

The last I've heard, Baptists believe that the Ten Commandments are still valid and binding. And if that is indeed the case, then the fourth commandment would be binding upon Baptists, therefore all Baptists should become Seventh day Baptists, if they are really serious about following the Bible and the Bible only.

Many do not understand who the Law of Moses was given to and upon whom it was binding. It is right there in Scripture, it was given to ethnic Israel, not to the church. The church and ethinc Israel are not the same groups of people.