Slavery, a Guide

[Clizby WampusCat]

You understand the use of the modal verb ‘may’, yes? You may do this, that. You can do it, it is permissible. You understand the verb ‘to promote’, yes? To promote something, to advertise or campaign in some sense to encourage people to do it. You get the difference - permit/promote? You may, for example, buy a phone without concerning yourself about slave conditions in another, remote, country. Are you promoting slavery as you hand over your $? Are you permitting it? Is it something you give any thought to? If not, why not?

This is not about me or modern slavery types. It is about the bible allowing the Hebrews to take forced slaves. Telling someone they may have but slaves, keep them as property and bequeath them and beat them is immoral. The context is that God is speaking. The Bible is allowing them to have slaves.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Yes - as I said, slavery was an everyday part of life, everywhere, in the ancient world, just as many equally unsavoury things are part of how the world continues to work now.

Read the text.

 

[Tom 1]

This is not about me or modern slavery types. It is about the bible allowing the Hebrews to take forced slaves. Telling someone they may have but slaves, keep them as property and bequeath them and beat them is immoral. The context is that God is speaking. The Bible is allowing them to have slaves.

Uh yes slavery was very common in the ancient world. It is much about you as anyone else, you accept things that are immoral in the world as ‘the way things are’. So did ancient Israelites. You may think there is a difference, but there is no difference at all.

 

[Tom 1]

Read the text.

Yea, as it says ‘you may have slaves’. The Hebrews, like all ancient cultures, practiced slavery.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Yea, as it says ‘you may have slaves’. The Hebrews, like all ancient cultures, practiced slavery.

What if I said to me child you may rape women. Would that be a moral thing to say to my child just because rape is a thing people do? You are refusing to see that the bible is OK with slavery, it is not just describing what the practice was.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Uh yes slavery was very common in the ancient world. It is much about you as anyone else, you accept things that are immoral in the world as ‘the way things are’. So did ancient Israelites. You may think there is a difference, but there is no difference at all.

You are confusing the practice of slavery to allowing slavery. I may accept immoral things in the world but I would never say that people may do them, the bible does.

 

[cvanwey]

You understand the use of the modal verb ‘may’, yes? You may do this, that. You can do it, it is permissible. You understand the verb ‘to promote’, yes? To promote something, to advertise or campaign in some sense to encourage people to do it. You get the difference - permit/promote?

Yes.

You may, for example, buy a phone without concerning yourself about slave conditions in another, remote, country. Are you promoting slavery as you hand over your $?

The provided Verses look to be giving direct 'instruction' to the direct would-be slave owner. In such a case, the would-be slave owner (may) buy slaves. The slave owner (may) treat their slave as property. The slave owner (may) also beat their slaves, just short of death (ala Exodus 21). The slave owner (may) also keep the slave for life.

Your example does not apply. Person (A) buys a slave. Person (A) orders this slave to make widgets. Person (B) later comes along, and buys such widget.

You see the difference between person (A) and person (B)? See below for clarification...

Are you permitting it?

If person (B) knows the entire situation, does not agree with the said situation, and chooses to buy the widget anyways, then yes. Person (B) permits it, in that specific regard. If such known information is revealed, and person (B) chooses not to buy the widget, then no.

However, this does absolutely nothing to change the given circumstance, as presented from the Bible. God provides instruction, and (condones, permits, allows) the acts between person (A) and their slave. Furthermore, He gives direct instruction on what can and cannot be done with a human slave.

If God had not weighed in on the topic, at all, then one might easily conclude that God does not like slavery. But instead, Bible readers are left to shoulder the burden of wrestling with the topic, as it appears to contradict in other places. But that is your guy's 'cross to bare', not the unbelievers.

 

[Tom 1]

You are confusing the practice of slavery to allowing slavery. I may accept immoral things in the world but I would never say that people may do them, the bible does.

Uh yes, again, slavery was practiced all over the world until quite recently.

When you buy a phone you aren’t giving money to a company that uses slave labour? In what way is that not actively supporting an industry that uses children to mine rare minerals in toxic conditions? That is merely ‘accepting’ something, is it?

 

[Tom 1]

What if I said to me child you may rape women. Would that be a moral thing to say to my child just because rape is a thing people do? You are refusing to see that the bible is OK with slavery, it is not just describing what the practice was.

As I’ve said numerous times yes the Hebrew nation, like every other civilisation at the time, practised slavery. What on Earth do you think I am refusing to see?

 

[Tom 1]

What if I said to me child you may rape women. Would that be a moral thing to say to my child just because rape is a thing people do? You are refusing to see that the bible is OK with slavery, it is not just describing what the practice was.

What is the comparison between rape and slavery? Please make some attempt to explain what you mean.

 

[Tom 1]

Yes.



The provided Verses look to be giving direct 'instruction' to the direct would-be slave owner. In such a case, the would-be slave owner (may) buy slaves. The slave owner (may) treat their slave as property. The slave owner (may) also beat their slaves, just short of death (ala Exodus 21). The slave owner (may) also keep the slave for life.

Your example does not apply. Person (A) buys a slave. Person (A) orders this slave to make widgets. Person (B) later comes along, and buys such widget.

You see the difference between person (A) and person (B)? See below for clarification...



If person (B) knows the entire situation, does not agree with the said situation, and chooses to buy the widget anyways, then yes. Person (B) permits it, in that specific regard. If such known information is revealed, and person (B) chooses not to buy the widget, then no.

However, this does absolutely nothing to change the given circumstance, as presented from the Bible. God provides instruction, and (condones, permits, allows) the acts between person (A) and their slave. Furthermore, He gives direct instruction on what can and cannot be done with a human slave.

If God had not weighed in on the topic, at all, then one might easily conclude that God does not like slavery. But instead, Bible readers are left to shoulder the burden of wrestling with the topic, as it appears to contradict in other places. But that is your guy's 'cross to bare', not the unbelievers.

As usual Cvanwey, I have no idea what you are on about. This particular discussion you have come into is over the idea that a couple of people posting here believe themselves morally superior because they have passively accepted the moral norms of the societies they were born into. Retrospective morality is just plain daft. If you or I had been born several thousand years ago we wouldn’t have given the practice of slavery a second thought. There is nothing to wrestle with any more than there has been at any other time in human history. As with the other superficial notions put forward, if you can use your knowledge of ancient history to demonstrate how civilisation might have developed differently in some convincing and coherent way, then you’ll have something worth saying about it. If you’re planning on cobbling together another series of random abstract links, I urge you to put your time to better use.

 

[cvanwey]

As usual Cvanwey, I have no idea what you are on about. This particular discussion you have come into is over the idea that a couple of people posting here believe themselves morally superior because they have passively accepted the moral norms of the societies they were born into. Retrospective morality is just plain daft. If you or I had been born several thousand years ago we wouldn’t have given the practice of slavery a second thought. There is nothing to wrestle with any more than there has been at any other time in human history. As with the other superficial notions put forward, if you can use your knowledge of ancient history to demonstrate how civilisation might have developed differently in some convincing and coherent way, then you’ll have something worth saying about it. If you’re planning on cobbling together another series of random abstract links, I urge you to put your time to better use.

As usual @Tom 1 , you are back at it with the assumptions and ad hominems

For all we know, killing babies for fun will be a perfectly acceptable application next week, from society.

But the mere fact that you offer to 'defend' the topic, lends credence to the notion that you likely do not like what the Bible actually has to say about the topic of slavery. And I'm rather entertained watching you provide illogical ways to 'defend' it. Carry on

If you care to actually address my reply, using 'logic', and no emotion, please do. Otherwise, please continue with your 'rederick'.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Uh yes, again, slavery was practiced all over the world until quite recently.

Another avoidance. I am not making this claim. The bible allowed (may) for forced slavery to exist. That is what the text says.

When you buy a phone you aren’t giving money to a company that uses slave labour? In what way is that not actively supporting an industry that uses children to mine rare minerals in toxic conditions? That is merely ‘accepting’ something, is it?

Am I an authority telling them they can do this? No. If I could stop it I would. God didn't stop slavery as yo have just pointed out.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

As I’ve said numerous times yes the Hebrew nation, like every other civilisation at the time, practised slavery. What on Earth do you think I am refusing to see?

You refuse to see that the bible saying the Hebrews may have slaves is different than the bible saying the Hebrews had slaves.

 

[Tom 1]

As usual @Tom 1 , you are back at it with the assumptions and ad hominems

For all we know, killing babies for fun will be a perfectly acceptable application next week, from society.

But the mere fact that you offer to 'defend' the topic, lends credence to the notion that you likely do not like what the Bible actually has to say about the topic of slavery. And I'm rather entertained watching you provide illogical ways to 'defend' it. Carry on

If you care to actually address my reply, using 'logic', and no emotion, please do. Otherwise, please continue with your 'rederick'.

Please make some sense! Please. No more bizarre analogies or random stuff please. You can read earlier posts and respond to those if you like, point by point. If you haven’t got something reality based, actual things to say about actual real things, please spare me the fortune cookie stuff. Life is too short. Get out and enjoy the sunshine instead.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

What is the comparison between rape and slavery? Please make some attempt to explain what you mean.

This is a tactic you use on everyone to not respond to a post.

If I say to my child "you may go rape people" is the same as the Bible saying "you may have slaves". Both immoral teachings.

I am not comparing rape and slavery.

 

[Tom 1]

Another avoidance. I am not making this claim. The bible allowed (may) for forced slavery to exist. That is what the text says.

Can you just read it again and move on? Practiced slavery, did slavery, had slaves - ?? What are you seeing as the distinction here? Yes, it’s in the bible - that’s how we know about it. What do you imagine I’m avoiding? Are you trying to say there is some sort of difference between different ways of saying that in ancient Israel slavery was practiced/done/however you want to say it? Or that having some guidance about how to manage slaves is of some special significance?

 

[Tom 1]

This is a tactic you use on everyone to not respond to a post.

If I say to my child "you may go rape people" is the same as the Bible saying "you may have slaves". Both immoral teachings.

I am not comparing rape and slavery.

What?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

As usual @Tom 1

But the mere fact that you offer to 'defend' the topic, lends credence to the notion that you likely do not like what the Bible actually has to say about the topic of slavery. And I'm rather entertained watching you provide illogical ways to 'defend' it. Carry on

He refuses to see what is plain to see. I get it, 3 years ago I would have refused to see it as well. To not see that the word "may" at minimum allows slavery is an indication of some sort of cognitive dissonance or avoidance tactic in his brain.

 

[Tom 1]

Am I an authority telling them they can do this? No. If I could stop it I would. God didn't stop slavery as yo have just pointed out.

You’re not making any sense dude. You support modern slavery with your $, but God somehow should have stopped an ancient civilisation from having slaves. How? Tell me how that would have worked? At least have a go at it. Then you can move on to how God could have prevented war and a whole host of other things that are among the root causes of slavery. Just have a go, please, at a reality based answer.