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Slavery, a Guide

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I’m at a loss to understand why you think this is an argument.
This is the kind of thing that makes me think you haven't yet read the sermon.
You keep quoting some guy who delivered some of his opinions on the matter a couple of centuries ago
Have you actually been reading what I've said? He's not "some guy," he's a Christian leader who wrote a sermon defending the practice of slavery. Simply dismissing him without making any attempt to engage his arguments only makes you look like you haven't bothered reading them.
and for some reason you take them to be ‘what’s in the bible’ without any coherent attempt to explain why.
It's the way he quotes the Bible with references to chapter and verse.
Simply repeating things does not an argument make.
You're just making yourself look silly now. Read the arguments he made and respond to them, if you can.
How can you think it makes sense to discuss slavery without identifying and understanding the context in which slavery occurred? How does that make any sense?
I'm well aware of the context in which slavery occurred. In what way do you imagine it shows that God did not approve of slavery? When the Bible told people they could take slaves as they wished, they could punish them as they wished, and that slaves should obey their masters faithfully...in what way do you take this to be an abolitionist manifesto?
 
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Your understanding of this whole period and related issues is so basic I'm unsure why you engage in debate other than to ask questions.
Presented with evidence that you're wrong - ie, that the Bible does mean "slaves" in many of the cases in which it refers to "servants" - all you're going to do is hand-wave it away and say, "Well, who knows?"
Not good enough, I'm afraid. The Bible is talking about slaves. If it were talking about servants, it wouldn't tell you to beat them mercilessly and to to keep them and their children your property forever.
 
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Nope, not at all. As I've asked you to do several times, him being your witness, please cite the relevant verses and your understanding of why they support his views. No more KJV please.
The arguments for the Bible being pro-slavery are made quite clearly in the sermon. All you have to do is rebut them. Go on. Point out all the mistakes in them. Show me where he was wrong. Explain his scriptural errors to me. It's been several pages now, but you seem completely unable to match wits with a Southern preacher.
Are you having trouble with the nineteenth-century language? If so, I can paraphrase for you.
 
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Tom 1

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I'm well aware of the context in which slavery occurred

You are? Then you can put together an adequate response. This would include:

1) How, according to the bible, was the world set up to be?
2) What changed?
3) What was (according to the bible) God's response to what happened next?
4) What did God (according to the bible) then decide he would never do again?
5) What, over the following centuries, was the progress of developing civilisations? How did this work? In what ways were civilisations at that time different to ours?
6) What was the process by which the Hebrew nation (according to the bible) developed, in what ways was it similar to and in what ways different to contemporaneous nations? Why? What was it's purpose? What were the priorities and driving forces of the Hebrews as a nation?
7) At what point did a baseline of legal principles become part of this developing nation? What are the differences between 'God's law' (given, according to the bible at Mt Sinai) and Mosaic law (written, according to the bible, down several decades later in the last years and months of Moses' life)? How did these laws change and develop over time, and why? What is meant by the separation of the laws, according to the 2 main interpreters of the Torah, Maimonides and Philo?
8) What did Jesus mean by his statement that he had come not to abolish but to fulfil the law? What are some examples of this? Which parts of the law did he mean?
9) What is meant by phrases such as 'this evil generation' 'misery toil and oppression' 'this age will pass' etc; what is this about? What does the bible say about the state of things in the world that indicates approval, and what does it have to say about the need for change? How does it say such change will be accomplished, now and in the future, and by who?
10) What are the differences between a household in Ancient Israel having either Hebrew or foreign slaves to do some of the household work, and you (for example) using a smartphone or other device that relies on children and adults toiling in dreadful conditions 12 hours a day for a subsistence wage? Does your use of a smartphone indicate your approval of this situation? If not, how do you explain it?

That will do for starters.
 
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Tom 1

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This is a quite inadequate response. Presented with evidence that you're wrong - ie, that the Bible does mean "slaves" in many of the cases in which it refers to "servants" - all you're going to do is hand-wave it away and say, "Well, who knows?"

No, not at all. There are 2 options here -

1) Find a source, however outdated and absurd it matters not, that agrees with (surprise surprise) what you want to say, and use only that. This, the method you have so far employed in this 'debate', is what we can call 'the dishonest route'
2) Approach the issue from a broader perspective until you arrive at an understanding, 'the honest route'

'well, who knows?' is, fortunately, not the only available answer. Translation, like it or not, is not a simple business of exchanging one word for another in a seamless sequence. Context means a great many things, from general to specific, and without an understanding of that there's no point even joining in the discussion. Thankfully, over the last 150 years or so we both have more ancient world writings and a greatly expanded ability to translate them in terms that are closer to the original meanings. The distinction is not, as is implicit in your frantic virtue signalling, a difference between slaves toiling in the heat of the day and others working 9-5 and spending the rest of their time sipping cappuccinos and watching Netflix. Life in the ANE was precarious, there were some choices available to some people, those with an education or a trade, but for many the choice was between scratching out a subsistence living any way they could or aligning themselves with a wealthy patron to whom they would, no bones about it, give themselves in lifelong service in return for food, shelter and protection. This is not the equivalent of a modern job contract, unless that contract involves an obligation to, for example, engage in combat on your employer's behalf if necessary, or to be entirely dependent on your employer's good will should you no longer be able to work. For some, facing destitution, selling themselves into (in Hebrew society temporary) slavery was the best remaining option. There wasn't a 'oh well I can do that or I can just go and get a fill-in job until something turns up' option. If you can't understand how this makes the entire way a person thinks about life different to how you think about it, then - well - I don't know what to say to that. Frequent conflicts over resources, incursions and counter-incursions, the taking of prisoners (slaves) and hostages (slaves) were as basic a feature of life as the maintenance of the Western way of life through the various means by which rivals and threats are dealt with are today - fundamentally the same thing, bigger scale and different methods - for practical rather than moral reasons. I'll address the rather trite and superficial points you have raised if you insist, but the key thing is to set the actual reality of real things that really happen against the random and superficial notions that happen to go through your head - do that, and you can't help but learn something useful, eventually.
 
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You are? Then you can put together an adequate response. This would include:

1) How, according to the bible, was the world set up to be?
2) What changed?
3) What was (according to the bible) God's response to what happened next?
4) What did God (according to the bible) then decide he would never do again?
5) What, over the following centuries, was the progress of developing civilisations? How did this work? In what ways were civilisations at that time different to ours?
6) What was the process by which the Hebrew nation (according to the bible) developed, in what ways was it similar to and in what ways different to contemporaneous nations? Why? What was it's purpose? What were the priorities and driving forces of the Hebrews as a nation?
7) At what point did a baseline of legal principles become part of this developing nation? What are the differences between 'God's law' (given, according to the bible at Mt Sinai) and Mosaic law (written, according to the bible, down several decades later in the last years and months of Moses' life)? How did these laws change and develop over time, and why? What is meant by the separation of the laws, according to the 2 main interpreters of the Torah, Maimonides and Philo?
8) What did Jesus mean by his statement that he had come not to abolish but to fulfil the law? What are some examples of this? Which parts of the law did he mean?
9) What is meant by phrases such as 'this evil generation' 'misery toil and oppression' 'this age will pass' etc; what is this about? What does the bible say about the state of things in the world that indicates approval, and what does it have to say about the need for change? How does it say such change will be accomplished, now and in the future, and by who?
10) What are the differences between a household in Ancient Israel having either Hebrew or foreign slaves to do some of the household work, and you (for example) using a smartphone or other device that relies on children and adults toiling in dreadful conditions 12 hours a day for a subsistence wage? Does your use of a smartphone indicate your approval of this situation? If not, how do you explain it?

That will do for starters.
Sounds like quite a project! it would certainly take up a good bit of our time, so I can see why you'd like to engage in it.
So how about we start on that when you've read and responded to Pastor Warren's sermon? Since you think it's so easy to refute, I take it you have read it, and am agog to see you point out the mistakes.
 
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Tom 1

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Eph. 5:5-8, “Servants, (bondsmen,) be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart as unto Christ; not with eye service as men-pleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; with good will doing service as unto the Lord, and not to men, knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.”

This seems to be a missquote, the relevant passages, instructions for slaves and masters, are in the next chapter:

'slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, obey them not only (etc) but as slaves of Christ...masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favouritism with him.'


Slavery itself is not questioned. It would be surprising if it had been, slavery was as much taken for granted at the time the letter was written as child labour for developed world conveniences still is today.

The Christian teaching, as you may be aware, is of an inner kingdom, as here:

Galations 3:23-ff

'Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith...there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus...Abraham's seed'.

You can read Hebrews if you want to know what is meant by being Abraham's seed (hint - it has nothing to do with slave-owning).
As you can see the law (Mosaic law) was intended as a temporary state, a significant element in the development of Israel as a nation that both reflects and to some limited extent defines the times and customs it developed within. Christ preached a fulfilment of the law (God's law) and in part by means of mosaic law given greater expression, an ideal, as in the beatitudes and the story of the good Samaritan, for individual commitment to the way of love for your neighbour. It is a high ideal indeed, and while far less prescriptive in detail than mosaic law, it is much broader in scope - the 'go and do likewise' appended to the story of the good Samaritan, the division of the sheep and the goats - very few people live up to this spirit of the law to the fullest extent standard. Whether or not a person was a slave, or a slave owner, or of this ethnicity or that or this gender or that are not considered relevant, this is an ultimate standard set for all individuals to interpret within the context of their own life.

This also is temporary, a staging post on the way to the ultimate fulfilment of God's plan, as we could call it, in a return to a state of harmony in which any considerations of the ancient or modern world and how to live in them become irrelevant.


God instituted it in the days of Noah, and gave it His sanction again at Mt. Sinai. His Son commended it during his ministry on earth. The holy apostle Paul, exhorted his son Timothy to preach it; and Peter teaches a most important precept as to its obligations.

Er no. What? Where?

If God, through Noah, after the flood, and at Sinai, through the Law—if Christ during his ministry, and the apostles in their writings, instituted, regulated and promulgated slavery—it is not less imperative on me, to “declare the whole counsel of God” on this subject, than it is on any other, which the wise and beneficent Creator has seen proper to reveal to man.

This is just random nonsense. The 10 commandments (Sinai) mention none of this, the story of Noah mentions none of this. Christ and his apostles no more instituted slavery than they instituted the wearing of clothes or making bread, neither did they promulgate it, encourage or discourage it, or anything of the sort, beyond the exhortation to each individual to consider the circumstances of his or her life in the light of the gospel. A couple of his apostles did regulate it in a very limited sense, although certainly not in the sense implied here of them being in some way involved in the regulation of the laws of the land, but to call slaves to be obedient and slave-owners not to threaten or treat slaves badly, as above. Warren's view on this is thoroughly misleading.

More than two thousand years before the christian era, slavery was instituted by decree of heaven, and published to the world by Noah, a “preacher of righteousness.” Here is the decree, Genesis 9:25-27, “Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants, shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, blessed be the Lord God of Shem, and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.” The Jews descended from Shem, the Europeans and Americans from Japheth, the Africans from Ham, the father of Canaan.

Uh, no. All Semitic peoples descended from Shem. This is a Southern Baptist notion of history, taking elements of Jewish theology and history and bending them to fit other scenarios. Whoever 'instituted' slavery it happened way, way before the writing of the book of genesis. Really if you want to understand this passage you'll need to read a lot more widely, as there are far too many relevant points to summarise here. For a modern take you can familiarise yourself with the work of David Rosenberg (there's a partial introduction to his work here: In the Beginning) but really if you want to understand any of this there's no substitute for reading Philo and Maimonides. That way you get what was meant by Jewish people writing about Jewish law and culture rather than the views of some pompous character with an agenda.

To show that the above language was the announcement of heaven’s decree concerning slavery, and that Noah was speaking as he was moved by the Holy Spirit, we have only to refer to its explanation and fulfillment by the descendants of Shem, as recorded in the 25th chapter of Leviticus. God gave to Abraham, a descendant of Shem, and to his seed after him the land of the Canaanites, into the possession of which they came in the days of Joshua. After the children of Israel came into the possession of the land, God gave them the following instruction as to bringing the people into bondage: “Both thy bond men and thy bond maids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you (these were the descendants of Canaan, and hence called Canaanites), of them shall ye BUY BOND MEN AND BOND MAIDS. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land; and they shall be your possessions. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for possession; they shall be your bond men forever.”

This is just garbage. The linking of this idea directly to canaanites 'because they lived there', as if this were some homogeneous group, is a total fabrication, as are the other random speculations about descent. The Hebrews, as they were variously taken captive and enslaved at various points, also took slaves from various other cultures and small communities at different times, as did every other culture. For the clearest picture of what this would have looked like a reasonably comprehensive idea can be taken from the long periods of conflict both within early Mesopotamia and later conflicts between the Sumerians and the Edomites, and the rise of the Babylonian and Assyrian empires. To state it again: yes the Hebrew nation, like every other nation known of from the time, practised slavery. Warren's trite notions about Canaanites (etc) however only reveal an ignorance of history.

1. The establishment of slavery by divine decree.
2. The right to buy and sell men and women into bondage.
3. The perpetuity of the institution by the same authority.

1. Nope
2. Yes
3. By Mosaic law

The government was fully organized at Mount Sinai.

No, it wasn't. If we follow Warren's logic to its actual conclusion, then we could say that 'the government' (in reality a loose conglomerate of individual clans and families with some people appointed to resolve disputes) was organised decades after Sinai, shortly before Moses passed on. The reality of the situation however is much more complicated, the coming together of it into what we recognise today as the identity of the early Jewish nation didn't happen until the period of exile in Babylon, and Philo and Maimonides (among others) were still codifying and interpreting the mosaic laws centuries later. Warren's basic notions aren't worth writing down on toilet paper.

It guarantees to the slaveholder the peaceable and unmolested right to his slave property

Yes, slavery was a common practice throughout the entire period in which the OT and NT were written, although unmolested is not entirely true under the NT. Christians are required to search their own conscience, and through 'constant use' work out what is good and what is bad. It's pretty unlikely that anyone living in the ANE would have considered slavery an abomination per se, but it is also likely that on an individual level some would have given freedom to a Christian brother or sister for personal reasons.

On a related issue, something you have sort of alluded to, yes both the Hebrew nation and the Church are/were concerned with the Hebrew nation and the Church. These things are the business of the Hebrew Nation and the Church, the invitation to become part of the church is as open to all as was the possibility to become part of the Hebrew nation before that. What the rest of the world does is what it does - neither Judaism or Christianity ever concerned itself with the laws of other empires or states or whatever before Christianity became part of the state, beyond promoting charity and so on, which happened under Judaism (see Philo) as it has under Christianity and Christian-influenced states, and in the waging of war (and other actions) against other nations in Jewish history and under 'Christian' authorities, which at times led to the temporary imposition of (generally relatively humane) laws over other groups.

The blessed Saviour descended from a slave-holder, Abraham. This “father of the faithful,” held as many bondmen, “born in his house and bought with his money,” as perhaps any slaveholder in the South. When he was chosen out, as the one “in whom all the families of the earth should be blessed,” not a word of Divine disapprobation, on account of his being a slave-holder was uttered.

It's certainly possible Abraham owned some slaves, however the idea that anywhere outside of Game of Thrones a force of trained fighting men and herdsmen responsible for huge flocks would be roles assigned to slaves is codswallop. There's a lot you can look into on this, but if you've ever served in the military or farmed you will/would understand how absurd this idea is, particularly given Abraham's mobile lifestyle. These are not things that were entrusted to slaves, but this is where the term 'bondsmen' is perhaps the most useful, i.e. people who essentially lived their whole lives to provide service to a patron who in exchange provided food, shelter, protection and status etc. Some skilled artisans, scribes, independent traders etc had more options but for many average persons committing your life and welfare to a wealthy patron was the best available option.

He alluded to it frequently

Where?
 
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Tom 1

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so I can see why you'd like to engage in it.

Yes, there are good reasons for 'knowing what something is' so that you can 'know what it is'. I can elaborate if that is unclear.
 
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Tom 1

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in what way do you take this to be an abolitionist manifesto?

It isn't - ? What's your point? Please don't take this as an easy way to avoid the more germane issues, but I don't see the point of this assertion.
 
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Thank you for engaging with the sermon. Let's see how you did.
This seems to be a missquote, the relevant passages, instructions for slaves and masters, are in the next chapter:
'slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, obey them not only (etc) but as slaves of Christ...masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favouritism with him.'
I don't see that this helps your case. Here we have an obviously pro-slavery sentiment: slaves, obey your masters. The fact that is also admonishes masters to treat slaves well does not seem to weigh very heavily. A master might reasonably interpret this as meaning "Don't punish your slaves unless they are disobedient."
Slavery itself is not questioned. It would be surprising if it had been, slavery was as much taken for granted at the time the letter was written as child labour for developed world conveniences still is today.
I agree with you one hundred per cent. A problem, though, for Christians who want to look at the Bible and find an anti-slavery message in it.
The Christian teaching, as you may be aware, is of an inner kingdom
Yes. We see it in many places: slaves, stay slaves, and serve your masters well, in the same way that Christians should serve God.
As you can see the law (Mosaic law) was intended as a temporary state, a significant element in the development of Israel as a nation that both reflects and to some limited extent defines the times and customs it developed within. Christ preached a fulfilment of the law (God's law) through mosaic law given greater expression, an ideal, as in the beatitudes and the story of the good Samaritan, for individual commitment to the way of love for your neighbour.
This does not address the issue that the Bible, in both the Old and New Testaments, shows itself thoroughly in support of slavery.
This also is temporary, a staging post on the way to the ultimate fulfilment of God's plan, as we could call it, in a return to a state of harmony in which any considerations of the ancient or modern world and how to live in them become irrelevant.
I believe that the slaveholders of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries would be thoroughly in agreement with you. No doubt some of them said similar things. Indeed, a number of the arguments you make work very well in favour of slavery - it's a natural part of society, it will pass away when God is ready, and Christians should be concerned with the inner, spiritual life, not the laws of nations. I don't think many members of the Underground Railroad would have agreed with you, though.
Er no. What? Where?
If you're asking about where Peter preached in favour of slavery, I think Pastor Warren might have been referring to 1 Peter 2:18, in which Peter tells slaves to obey their masters, whether they treat them well or whether they treat them cruelly.
This is just random nonsense. The 10 commandments (Sinai) mention none of this, the story of Noah mentions none of this. Christ and his apostles no more instituted slavery than they instituted the wearing of clothes or making bread, neither did they promulgate it, encourage or discourage it, or anything of the sort
This is sloppy thinking on your part. Moses - or God, through Moses - said that his people should buy slaves, and that they should be their possessions forever (Leviticus 25, 44-46) and Moses said that your slaves could be punished as much as you liked, because they belonged to you, just so long as you did not outright kill them (Exodus 21: 20-21). Of course Christ did not begin the practice of slavery, but He said nothing against it, though He spoke of it several times; and His apostles certainly encouraged and promoted slavery.
Uh, no. All Semitic peoples descended from Shem. This is a Southern Baptist notion of history, taking elements of Jewish theology and history and bending them to fit other scenarios.
What's that got to do with anything? I'm not a young-earth creationist, you know. I know perfectly well that African people were not descended from Ham. The point is that the Bible says that Canaan and his descendants shall be slaves, another example of the Bible being in favour of slavery.
Whoever 'instituted' slavery it happened way, way before the writing of the book of genesis.
You mean the Earth isn't really six thousand years old? What a shock.
This is just garbage. The linking of this idea directly canaanites 'because they lived there' is a total fabrication. The Hebrews, as they were variously taken captive and enslaved at various points, also took slaves from various other cultures and small communities at different times, as did every other culture.
Thank you. Sounds like they were in favour of slavery, as were their holy writings.
1. Nope.
2. Yes
3. By Mosaic law
1. Yup. While God was not responsible for establishing all slavery, He certainly was responsible for ordering that slaves should be taken.
2. We agree that the Bible does establish the right to buy and sell people - in other words, it is pro-slavery.
3. It's quite clear that God was in favour of slavery, Jesus saw nothing wrong with it, and His followers, on occasion, actively promoted it.
If we follow Warren's logic to its actual conclusion, then we could say that 'the government' (in reality a loose conglomerate of individual clans and families with some people appointed to resolve disputes) was organised decades after Sinai, shortly before Moses passed on
While I'll be happy to agree that Warren is exaggerating when he speaks of government being fully organised, it's clear that God and Moses did have clear views on slavery, and that they were fully in favour of it.
Yes, slavery was a common practice throughout the entire period in which the OT and NT were written, although unmolested is not entirely true under the NT. Christians are required to search their own conscience, and through 'constant use' work out what is good and what is bad. It's pretty unlikely that anyone living in the ANE would have considered slavery an abomination per se, but it is also likely that on an individual level some would have given freedom to a Christian brother or sister for personal reasons.
You're just making my case for me here. Yes, slavery was an accepted part of society in the times when the various parts of the Bible were written, and the Bible says nothing against it; indeed, it speaks in its favour on a number of occasions.
It's certainly possible Abraham owned some slaves
Yes, it certainly is. What he chose to do with them is irrelevant. The fact remains, we have here another example of a person beloved by God being a slaveholder.
Jesus mentions slaves in several of his parables. While the point of these parables is generally not about slavery (Jesus is telling stories to make a point about the nature of God) it's clear that Jesus was well aware of the institution of slavery and how slaves lived. But He never saw fit to denounce the practice or to discourage it. Anyone who thinks the Bible is anti-slavery will find no help in it from Jesus.
Yes, there are good reasons for 'knowing what something is' so that you can 'know what it is'. I can elaborate if that is unclear.
I think the point is this: we don't need to go into a lengthy analysis of Middle Eastern society over the past few thousand years to understand what slavery was or that the Bible endorsed it.
It isn't - ? What's your point? Please don't take this as an easy way to avoid the more germane issues, but I don't see the point of this assertion.
Well, you seem to think that the Bible is against slavery, and I'm wondering where you get this curious notion, considering that anything the Bible says on the subject of slavery is firmly in favour of it.

I'd like to thank you again for looking at Pastor Warren's sermon. I think we can see now that his basic message is perfectly sound. For all your disagreements with him, and the undoubted advantages that you have, being an educated twenty-first century person, you haven't managed to rebut any of his key points - these being that God and the Bible encouraged slavery, promoted it, and obviously saw it as a good thing.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Sure ok, you see it like that so fair enough. Is it a realistic idea though? Things are what they are, change is slow, the rip it up and start again approach had been tried many times in the political sense and it doesn’t often run smoothly.
Could god have made everything start in the afterlife or not?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Suicide is tragic, but given around 50-60m people die every year I’m not sure if less than 2% of that figure counts as ‘many’. Maybe you should travel more? The majority of people find life worth living. It may be a stereotype but I have found it to be generally true that people from the US have a very distorted view of what life is like in other countries.
I have traveled. I think many Christians do not know what Christianity is like in other countries. I never said a majority of people I said many. 800,000 is many to me. My point is that you said life is not that bad. Well that is your experience. For many, maybe even the majority it is not great.
 
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The thing is, @Tom 1 nothing that you've written really contradicts the basic point that the Bible is pro-slavery. It's a simple point, and one that's quite unanswerable. God, Moses, Jesus' followers, they all speak approvingly of slavery, or order slaves to be taken, or tell slaves to serve well. If you hate slavery and think it's a bad thing, well, good for you. But you won't find anything in the Bible to back up your ideas.
Pastor Warren was right. The Bible is in favour of slavery, and that means God is too.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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You certainly did. You and I are making the same point: if God had actually been as opposed to slavery, as any morally decent person is today, then He would have condemned it.
I agree the solution I gave was made up but any answer I gave to the question would be made up. But this is a good point.


Exactly. @Tom 1 seems to think that God was opposed to slavery, but couldn't do anything to stop it. This, of course, is nonsense, as people could clearly see in 1861! As Pastor Warren said:
"He (Jesus) reproved them for their sins. Calling them the works of the flesh and of the devil. He denounced idolatry, covetousness, adultery, fornification, hypocrisy, and many other sins of less moral turpitude, but never once reproved them for holding slaves; though He alluded to it frequently, yet never with an expression of the slightest disapprobation."
Thanks for this reference. It is interesting.


Yes, @Tom 1 , please do show where God condemns slavery.
We will see.
 
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Tom 1

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Could god have made everything start in the afterlife or not?

How to answer that? The questions is entirely speculative. Not that speculative questions can’t be interesting but personally I’m more interested in discussing what has actually happened in the world. Ask a speculative question and the only limit is the imagination. Could an all powerful god make a world only filled with cartoon characters? Who can say? Who makes the rules? What rules might a God choose to be bound by?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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How to answer that? The questions is entirely speculative. Not that speculative questions can’t be interesting but personally I’m more interested in discussing what has actually happened in the world. Ask a speculative question and the only limit is the imagination. Could an all powerful god make a world only filled with cartoon characters? Who can say? Who makes the rules? What rules might a God choose to be bound by?
You asked a speculative question and now you bristle at a speculative answer? If you have no idea what God could have done differently then don't ask the question what could God have done differently next time.
 
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Tom 1

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You asked a speculative question and now you bristle at a speculative answer? If you have no idea what God could have done differently then don't ask the question what could God have done differently next time.

You've lost me a bit there. Without going back to my post what I was asking was related more to human history as it happened, as in how did it happen and what might have been done differently. What I was thinking is that you might have had an idea as to how human civilisation might have developed without slavery being part of it, which could be interesting to think about. Your 'if there was no civilisation in the first place' answer was a bit of a curveball, I didn't really know what you were getting at.

Besides that I'm not bristling at your answer, I just can't see how that would be answered. Do you see? Your question is very open-ended. I have no idea if God could/would do anything that you might suggest along those lines.
 
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Hawkins

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No on is good in accordance to LAW. That's why everyone is dead, thus we Jesus Christ.

Killing is not a world establishment. Slavery once is a world establishment that even the best of most decent human kind ever adapted this practice. God is not here to condemn people but to design a standard to divide the good from the evil.

That said. God sets an example through His chosen people that Hebrews cannot truly enslave fellow Hebrews. God regulates how non-Hebrew slaves shall be treated because back then it is legal to kill slaves at will. The Egyptians killed the Jews' children at will simple because the Jew got overpopulated. God never said that the Jews are all saints and can completely be separated from the world wide establishments. He thus regulates it, such that they won't be the same as the Egyptians.

Moreover and for the Jews' self survival, there is an eye for eye and tooth for tooth policy. It is thus no point (which actually puts the Jews in great disadvantage in wars) to ask the Jews not to enslave the non-Jews but to allow the opposite. Again, this means secular slavery as a world practice needs to be regulated.

God's job here is identify the savable, instead of applying an absolute which requires all the Jews to be saints and to be distanced from the whole world. God's job is to penetrate the different sinful human establishments to save those worth to be saved. With God's Law all humans are to be condemned to death.

Skillful theologians such as Paul will condemn the traders to reflect how immoral it is, instead of the owners.


1 Timothy 1:10 (NIV2011)
for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
 
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Tom 1

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The thing is, @Tom 1 nothing that you've written really contradicts the basic point that the Bible is pro-slavery. It's a simple point, and one that's quite unanswerable. God, Moses, Jesus' followers, they all speak approvingly of slavery, or order slaves to be taken, or tell slaves to serve well. If you hate slavery and think it's a bad thing, well, good for you. But you won't find anything in the Bible to back up your ideas.
Pastor Warren was right. The Bible is in favour of slavery, and that means God is too.

You haven't made any sort of argument that demonstrates that. The bible doesn't address slavery in any way other than to speak about it as a thing that is part of society, as it was, and how slaves and masters ought to behave. To turn that into 'pro-slavery' is rather childish and disingenuous.

Your argument so far has been:

1) I don't know anything about this issue and I have no interest in understanding it, but this guy said something and it sort of feels like he is right. Yeah, he's right, so there!
2) Repeat.
 
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Tom 1

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for Christians who want to look at the Bible and find an anti-slavery message in it.

Who would that be? Why would someone look to writings from the ancient world for an anti-slavery message? Could you start making some sense please.
 
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