Slavery, a Guide

[Tom 1]

I am beginning to think you are a troll. Is god not smart enough to figure that out? Maybe start killing people that are enslaving others and make it known that anyone who enslaves another will be killed on the spot.

I am guessing your response will be: "Dude stop making things up"

You genuinely don’t realise that you are just making meaningless, random assertions? ‘God should just like do it, you know?’ Is that all you’ve got? How about some sort of argument for how anything involving God stopping people doing anything at all would work.

 

[Tom 1]

Not an answer to my question. How does me buying ethically sourced phones stop child and forced slavery forever? How does it stop it if everyone buys ethically sourced phones?

Consumer pressure is the most effective way of changing the market. You can quite easily spend the time you’re using to make excuses to find out about it.

 

[cvanwey]

Consumer pressure is the most effective way of changing the market. You can quite easily spend the time you’re using to make excuses to find out about it.

You continue to miss his basic point.

 

[Tom 1]

Not an answer to my question. How does me buying ethically sourced phones stop child and forced slavery forever? How does it stop it if everyone buys ethically sourced phones?

‘How does it stop it forever?’ Come on man if you can’t be serious there’s no point.

 

[Tom 1]

You continue to miss his basic point.

Suuuree. Buying goods that fund slavery is just like soooo different y’know, and if like I didn’t it wouldn’t stop instantly anyway oh but God he should like stop us doing stuff coz then we’d be like down with not doing it.

 

[Tom 1]

You are, BTW, in affect, calling your own analogy bazaar I demonstrated why it fails. You care not to address it, or to demonstrate why my counter points are invalid. It's very telling indeed. But I'll give you a second chance. Post #187.

No, you know what - you’ve convinced me. I have suddenly realised that all this time I have spent actually reading about actual real things that actually really happen has been a colossal waste of time. Clearly what I should be doing is spending my time cooking up meaningless abstract conundrums for no good reason. Phew! So good to finally realise that. Rest assured Cvanwey that you need never trouble yourself again to persuade me, I am converted.

 

[cvanwey]

No, you know what - you’ve convinced me. I have suddenly realised that all this time I have spent actually reading about actual real things that actually really happen has been a colossal waste of time. Clearly what I should be doing is spending my time cooking up meaningless abstract conundrums for no good reason. Phew! So good to finally realise that. Rest assured Cvanwey that you need never trouble yourself again to persuade me, I am converted.

Post #187. It directly addresses [your] 'cooked up' analogy

 

[Tom 1]

Post #187. It directly addresses [your] 'cooked up' analogy

Well, you clearly think so. How nice for you! That’s great. I’m so happy for you.

 

[cvanwey]

Suuuree. Buying goods that fund slavery is just like soooo different y’know, and if like I didn’t it wouldn’t stop instantly anyway oh but God he should like stop us doing stuff coz then we’d be like down with not doing it.

God warrants, sanctions, allows, permits the act. As stated prior, if He never mentioned slavery by name, or just abolished it like He did with many other commands, then none of these threads would hardly ever surface

I ask you, what seems more logical, if you REALLY want to eradicate a 'problem'?

A) abolishing, outlaw, or not permit the said action, directly at the source -> (which is between person (a) and the potential slave)
B) tell all later would-be potential merchants not to buy from there

****************

And even if you wish to argue that option B) seems 'just as reasonable'. Fine. Maybe person (A) can just keep the slave for themselves, and not have them produce sellable merchandise.

 

[cvanwey]

Well, you clearly think so. How nice for you! That’s great. I’m so happy for you.

You 'gracefully' bowed out with the topic of 'prayer'. And now 'slavery'. Kool

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You genuinely don’t realise that you are just making meaningless, random assertions? ‘God should just like do it, you know?’ Is that all you’ve got? How about some sort of argument for how anything involving God stopping people doing anything at all would work.

I literally just gave you a solution. I DID NOT SAY JUST DO IT!. Read my post.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

‘How does it stop it forever?’ Come on man if you can’t be serious there’s no point.

Another tactic to avoid the issues.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Consumer pressure is the most effective way of changing the market. You can quite easily spend the time you’re using to make excuses to find out about it.

And this will stop slavery? It will stop slavery for cell phones. It will not stop slavery. You are naive.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

God warrants, sanctions, allows, permits the act. As stated prior, if He never mentioned slavery by name, or just abolished it like He did with many other commands, then none of these threads would hardly ever surface

I ask you, what seems more logical, if you REALLY want to eradicate a 'problem'?

A) abolishing, outlaw, or not permit the said action, directly at the source -> (which is between person (a) and the potential slave)
B) tell all later would-be potential merchants not to buy from there

****************

And even if you wish to argue that option B) seems 'just as reasonable'. Fine. Maybe person (A) can just keep the slave for themselves, and not have them produce sellable merchandise.

He is all yours. I can't take it anymore.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thank you. It is an immoral book.

And what, pray tell, IS the 'right' morality?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

And what, pray tell, IS the 'right' morality?

You may be right. Have a nice day.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You 'gracefully' bowed out with the topic of 'prayer'. And now 'slavery'. Kool

... oh, Tom may be getting tired of the charade, but I'm still here. Yippeeeeeeeeee!

 

[cvanwey]

... oh, Tom may be getting tired of the charade, but I'm still here. Yippeeeeeeeeee!

If by 'charade', you mean attempting to 'defend' a topic for which your God perpetually allows, but you likely don't like, then sure

And speaking of "I'm still here", why are you? You stated you were riding off into the sunset months ago....

 

[InterestedAtheist]

You haven't made any sort of argument that demonstrates that.

Sure I have. I began by pointing you toward Pastor Warrens' sermon, which laid down a clear, compelling and biblically referenced case for Christianity being in support of slavery. You dismissed it, belittled it, attempted to rebut it, and failed.

The bible doesn't address slavery in any way other than to speak about it as a thing that is part of society, as it was, and how slaves and masters ought to behave. To turn that into 'pro-slavery' is rather childish and disingenuous.

Sure it does. It say you may take slaves (as has been pointed out above, "may" is used in the permissive sense, thus making the Bible pro-slavery by saying that slavery is an acceptable choice). The Bible also tells you how to punish your slaves, giving permission to do so in appalling ways; and on several occasions, followers of Jesus admonish slaves to be respectful and obedient to their masters, whether they are treated justly or not.
If you are a Christian who is in favour of slavery, as many were once, you can quite easily look in the Good Book and find strong support for your views.
In short, the Bible is pro-slavery.

Your argument so far has been:
1) I don't know anything about this issue and I have no interest in understanding it, but this guy said something and it sort of feels like he is right. Yeah, he's right, so there!
2) Repeat.

Well, Pastor Warren was indeed right. And you've tried and failed to prove him wrong.

Who would that be? Why would someone look to writings from the ancient world for an anti-slavery message? Could you start making some sense please.

Oh, I think I'm making plenty of sense, thanks. Christians are followers of Christ. They look to Christ, the Old Testament and the New Testament for moral guidance. On the question of slavery, plenty of nineteenth-century Christians were abolitionists, but they found that the pro-slavery Christians made a much more compelling case from the Bible. As we're seeing playing out here in this thread.

Both, in different places. Should I repeat it all again? Yes, slavery has been an integral part of human society since the earliest days we know of in any detail, all around the globe. In the developed world it is no longer practised directly, for the most part, in other parts of the world it is. What is your point?

My point is that now we generally consider slavery to be immoral. I'm sure that you do yourself, and good for you. However, in thinking this, you are in direct opposition to the Bible, which promotes and encourages slavery.

'Thoroughly in support of slavery'. You're going to have to provide some sort of argument for this (please just provide an argument for something, 'I think stuff' answers are rather frustrating). This would include things like how often slavery is discussed, where it is discussed as anything other than a broadly accepted practice anywhere that anyone involved in writing the bible had been at any time. What is 'thorough' and 'supportive' exactly? Please provide an argument using the frequency it is mentioned and an analysis of the text showing thorough support in some way that might be thought of as credible.

While slavery isn't mentioned as often in the Bible as some other subjects, it certainly does crop up on occasion. Most of the key texts have already been mentioned in this thread. Do they show that the Bible is a book about slavery? Of course not. Do they show that the Bible has an opinion on slavery? They do. Is that opinion in favour of slavery? We've seen that it is.

No, it doesn't. You could educate yourself on the centrality of the older serving the younger in this context - but you aren't going to are you?

Perhaps another thread, when the topic becomes relevant. For now, I'm interested in encouraging you to look at the parts of the Bible that discuss slavery, and seeing you try to deny that they are in favour of it.

You really aren't able to distinguish your cognitive bias here? If a book describes how something should be done - that is an active promotion. In your mind.

Note the word should. Yes, the Bible says that slavery should be done, which is indeed active promotion.

No, just he didn't speak out on war, rampant capitalism, imperialism, communism, nose-picking in public or any other general human practice you might think of that never gets a mention.

But he did mention slaves and slavery, on several occasions, without speaking out against it. Jesus seemed quite comfortable with the institution of slavery existing; in other words, he was pro-slavery, even if he didn't go out and enslave people himself. Add to this the fact that the Bible encourages slavery, both before and after Jesus, and you have a pretty clear picture.

The guidance for living in the NT includes some specific lists of 'don't do this' some 'do do this' and a lot of examples illustrating how people who want to follow Christ ought to act in their personal lives. Whatever ills of society as the result of legal or accepted societal norms there were and are at any point in time, then or now, are not any part of the purpose and meaning of the bible. Do you understand that, or not?

I'm afraid you're mistaken. Jesus was quite outspoken on the subject of a number of ills, as were many others in the Bible. Voices in both the Old and New Testaments had quite a lot to say about the things that people should and shouldn't do. Not only nowhere did any of them find time to criticise slavery, they found time to praise it. It really is quite simple.

Again, what is your point here? If you are trying to intimate you are morally superior to people who lived at some different time, if you can tell me you don't use smartphones, laptops or anything else with a lithium battery I might accept that you at least take the question of slavery seriously.

Sure I'm morally superior to the people who kept slaves in the past. That's because it's an immoral thing to do, and I wouldn't do it. The fact that I am not a flawless moral being myself does not mean I cannot recognise and criticise some other evils.

What would give you the idea that anyone would think that?
Again, from the bible, bible worldview:
1) Idyllic state
2) People go their own way
3) Total mess. Guidelines for community survival become guidelines for personal living.
4) Return to idyllic state
What is it you don't get?

Why you're mentioning this. Is this relevant in some way?

You see? You simply don't know anything about this. You lack even the most basic idea to begin a discussion with. Here's a basic guide to knowing things:
1) Find something out about the subject
2) Form an opinion
3) Test it out
4) Modify it according to tested information and experience.
This produces better results than 'I think stuff'

An excellent model! Can I suggest that you apply it, since when you tried step 3 (testing your ideas by trying to debunk Pastor Warren's sermon) you failed, perhaps some revision of your views is in order?

Again, the same approach: you know nothing about it and yet somehow manage to believe you also understand it. Bit of a paradox.

The issue we're discussing - is the Bible pro-slavery or not - is in fact a very simple one. I suspect that the reason you're trying to over-complicate it is, well, you're wrong, so you have to muddy the waters in order to avoid that.

Where did you get that idea? Whose posts are you reading? Again:
1) There was an original intent for peace and harmony
2) Humans did their own thing, generally creating a bit of a mess
3) A society was cobbled together to provide a way forward through this, with an eventual aim in mind
4) Which was....a return to the original state
You know this is what is in the bible, correct? The basic message: human behaviour -> generally quite messy results; personal ethical guides -> relative improvements; eventual overhaul -> better state. This is the bible, the book we are talking about - you understand, I think? Not an anti-slavery, anti-war anti-? book. Yes?

That is an excellent pro-slavery argument. I can just see the antebellum preachers using it. Well done!

Well then, using your logic I can only conclude that your use of lithium battery powered devices clearly demonstrates that you encourage slave labour, you promote it and obviously see it as a good thing.

Not at all. There are many problems with modern capitalism. But just because I'm not a perfect being, that doesn't mean I can't criticise other wrongs.
Of course, so can you. I'm sure that you participate in capitalistic exploitation as well, while being firmly of the opinion that the slavery of the American South was a Bad Thing. The problem is, you're in denial that the Bible is itself pro-slavery.

You understand the use of the modal verb ‘may’, yes? You may do this, that. You can do it, it is permissible. You understand the verb ‘to promote’, yes? To promote something, to advertise or campaign in some sense to encourage people to do it. You get the difference - permit/promote?

I should hope you are aware that the word "may" can be used in more than one sense? The one used in the Bible verse referenced is the sense of giving permission. In other words, yes, you are allowed to take slaves because slavery is fine.

Retrospective morality is just plain daft. If you or I had been born several thousand years ago we wouldn’t have given the practice of slavery a second thought.

Almost certainly true. Yet now, we realise that slavery was very wrong indeed. When we think this, we usually think of US slavery, but since Biblical slavery was very similar, we can now see that the Bible was morally wrong to support and encourage it.

You’re not making any sense dude. You support modern slavery with your $, but God somehow should have stopped an ancient civilisation from having slaves. How?

Fallacy of the false dilemma. God, in his various Biblical voices, could at least have refrained form promoting slavery, and could have denounced it, even if He didn't take direct action against it.
It's really simple. The Bible speaks in support of slavery. Therefore, it is pro-slavery.

This is getting rather strange. At what point did you get the idea that I think the bible doesn’t allow/condone/insert your own similar word slavery? Whose posts have you been reading? Again, yes slavery is in the bible, the Jews had slaves, some Christians have slaves - is there some other dimension in which I am saying that didn’t happen and that the bible is anti-slavery?

It's honestly rather hard to tell what you think, as you rarely seem to answer a direct question. But I did get an indication when you said:

You understand the verb ‘to promote’, yes? To promote something, to advertise or campaign in some sense to encourage people to do it. You get the difference - permit/promote?

Got it. You think that the Bible permits slavery, but didn't promote it. You are incorrect in thinking this, as has been shown by the passages we've cited showing that the Bible does indeed promote slavery:

Colossians 3:22-24
Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

1 Timothy 6:1-2
All who are under the yoke as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against. Those who have believers as their masters must not be disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but must serve them all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles.

Titus 2:9-10
Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.

1 Peter 2:18-21
Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If by 'charade', you mean attempting to 'defend' a topic for which your God perpetually allows, but you likely don't like, then sure

And speaking of "I'm still here", why are you? You stated you were riding off into the sunset months ago....

I'm lurking.