Slavery, a Guide

[Tom 1]

I don't see that this helps your case.

What case?

 

[Tom 1]

Presented with evidence that you're wrong - ie, that the Bible does mean "slaves" in many of the cases in which it refers to "servants" - all you're going to do is hand-wave it away and say, "Well, who knows?"
Not good enough, I'm afraid. The Bible is talking about slaves. If it were talking about servants, it wouldn't tell you to beat them mercilessly and to to keep them and their children your property forever.

Both, in different places. Should I repeat it all again? Yes, slavery has been an integral part of human society since the earliest days we know of in any detail, all around the globe. In the developed world it is no longer practised directly, for the most part, in other parts of the world it is. What is your point?

 

[Tom 1]

This does not address the issue that the Bible, in both the Old and New Testaments, shows itself thoroughly in support of slavery.

'Thoroughly in support of slavery'. You're going to have to provide some sort of argument for this (please just provide an argument for something, 'I think stuff' answers are rather frustrating). This would include things like how often slavery is discussed, where it is discussed as anything other than a broadly accepted practice anywhere that anyone involved in writing the bible had been at any time. What is 'thorough' and 'supportive' exactly? Please provide an argument using the frequency it is mentioned and an analysis of the text showing thorough support in some way that might be thought of as credible.

 

[Tom 1]

The point is that the Bible says that Canaan and his descendants shall be slaves, another example of the Bible being in favour of slavery.

No, it doesn't. You could educate yourself on the centrality of the older serving the younger in this context - but you aren't going to are you?

 

[Tom 1]

actively promoted it

You really aren't able to distinguish your cognitive bias here? If a book describes how something should be done - that is an active promotion. In your mind.

 

[Tom 1]

But He never saw fit to denounce the practice or to discourage it.

No, just he didn't speak out on war, rampant capitalism, imperialism, communism, nose-picking in public or any other general human practice you might think of that never gets a mention. The guidance for living in the NT includes some specific lists of 'don't do this' some 'do do this' and a lot of examples illustrating how people who want to follow Christ ought to act in their personal lives. These are personal and interpersonal ethics, do you understand? These are the foundation and bedrock on which Christianity is intended to develop, in the OT the central structures of importance are family and community, in the NT this is similar but with more of an emphasis on personal development and growth through application of principles and so on. Whatever ills of society as the result of legal or accepted societal norms there were and are at any point in time, then or now, are not any part of the purpose and meaning of the bible. Do you understand that, or not?

 

[Tom 1]

Yes, it certainly is. What he chose to do with them is irrelevant. The fact remains, we have here another example of a person beloved by God being a slaveholder.

Again, what is your point here? If you are trying to intimate you are morally superior to people who lived at some different time, if you can tell me you don't use smartphones, laptops or anything else with a lithium battery I might accept that you at least take the question of slavery seriously.

 

[Tom 1]

Anyone who thinks the Bible is anti-slavery will find no help in it from Jesus.

What would give you the idea that anyone would think that?

Again, from the bible, bible worldview:

1) Idyllic state
2) People go their own way
3) Total mess. Guidelines for community survival become guidelines for personal living.
4) Return to idyllic state

What is it you don't get?

 

[Tom 1]

This is sloppy thinking on your part. Moses - or God, through Moses - said that his people should buy slaves, and that they should be their possessions forever (Leviticus 25, 44-46) and Moses said that your slaves could be punished as much as you liked, because they belonged to you, just so long as you did not outright kill them (Exodus 21: 20-21). Of course Christ did not begin the practice of slavery, but He said nothing against it, though He spoke of it several times; and His apostles certainly encouraged and promoted slavery.

You see? You simply don't know anything about this. You lack even the most basic idea to begin a discussion with. Here's a basic guide to knowing things:

1) Find something out about the subject
2) Form an opinion
3) Test it out
4) Modify it according to tested information and experience.

This produces better results than 'I think stuff'

 

[Tom 1]

Thank you. Sounds like they were in favour of slavery, as were their holy writings.

Yes, slavery was accepted by every culture in the ancient world - ? You also accept and support it quite gladly with your chosen currency, unless as I said you have renounced the use of most modern technology.

 

[Tom 1]

I think the point is this: we don't need to go into a lengthy analysis of Middle Eastern society over the past few thousand years to understand what slavery was or that the Bible endorsed it.

Again, the same approach: you know nothing about it and yet somehow manage to believe you also understand it. Bit of a paradox.

 

[Tom 1]

you seem to think that the Bible is against slavery

Where did you get that idea? Whose posts are you reading? Again:

1) There was an original intent for peace and harmony
2) Humans did their own thing, generally creating a bit of a mess
3) A society was cobbled together to provide a way forward through this, with an eventual aim in mind
4) Which was....a return to the original state

You know this is what is in the bible, correct? The basic message: human behaviour -> generally quite messy results; personal ethical guides -> relative improvements; eventual overhaul -> better state. This is the bible, the book we are talking about - you understand, I think? Not an anti-slavery, anti-war anti-? book. Yes?

 

[Tom 1]

God and the Bible encouraged slavery, promoted it, and obviously saw it as a good thing.

Well then, using your logic I can only conclude that your use of lithium battery powered devices clearly demonstrates that you encourage slave labour, you promote it and obviously see it as a good thing.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You've lost me a bit there. Without going back to my post what I was asking was related more to human history as it happened, as in how did it happen and what might have been done differently. What I was thinking is that you might have had an idea as to how human civilisation might have developed without slavery being part of it, which could be interesting to think about. Your 'if there was no civilisation in the first place' answer was a bit of a curveball, I didn't really know what you were getting at.

Besides that I'm not bristling at your answer, I just can't see how that would be answered. Do you see? Your question is very open-ended. I have no idea if God could/would do anything that you might suggest along those lines.

The original question was What could have God done differently to avoid slavery. I don't think human history would avoid slavery if left on its own. That is not my point. My point is that God could have stopped the practice if he wanted to. He never even told them not to own other people.

If you want a different answer, God could have told them to not own others as property and if someone does kill them on the spot or change their minds as he has precedent for. After awhile they would stop the practice I bet.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

The bible doesn't address slavery in any way other than to speak about it as a thing that is part of society, as it was, and how slaves and masters ought to behave. To turn that into 'pro-slavery' is rather childish and disingenuous.

This is untrue. The bible explicitly says that God said the Hebrews could buy slaves from other nations, treat them as property, beat them as long as they do not die within a day or two and bequeath them to decedents. See Lev 25. Ex 20:20-21.

Lev 25: 44-46 ESV

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

Here the Hebrews can buy slaves from the nations and clans around as well as strangers (non Hebrews) that were born in the land. God says here again the slaves are the master’s property. It also says that non Hebrew slaves can be inherited by descendants of the master, just like property or as God uses as possessions. So God thinks of non Hebrew slaves as possessions and to be treated by property.

This is not just describing slavery it is endorsing it as a practice.

 

[Tom 1]

This is untrue. The bible explicitly says that God said the Hebrews could buy slaves from other nations, treat them as property, beat them as long as they do not die within a day or two and bequeath them to decedents. See Lev 25. Ex 20:20-21.

Lev 25: 44-46 ESV

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

Here the Hebrews can buy slaves from the nations and clans around as well as strangers (non Hebrews) that were born in the land. God says here again the slaves are the master’s property. It also says that non Hebrew slaves can be inherited by descendants of the master, just like property or as God uses as possessions. So God thinks of non Hebrew slaves as possessions and to be treated by property.

This is not just describing slavery it is endorsing it as a practice.

I don’t know what you are responding to, you appear to have misunderstood the post. Slavery was an accepted practice - yes? It was what people did. Your smartphone battery contains components mined by children working 12 hour days in dangerous conditions - does that mean you are ‘pro-slavery’? Or does it mean that you live in the world and accept things as they are?

 

[Tom 1]

The original question was What could have God done differently to avoid slavery. I don't think human history would avoid slavery if left on its own. That is not my point. My point is that God could have stopped the practice if he wanted to. He never even told them not to own other people.

If you want a different answer, God could have told them to not own others as property and if someone does kill them on the spot or change their minds as he has precedent for. After awhile they would stop the practice I bet.

Ok, that’s what you think. Great.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I don’t know what you are responding to, you appear to have misunderstood the post. Slavery was an accepted practice - yes? It was what people did. Your smartphone battery contains components mined by children working 12 hour days in dangerous conditions - does that mean you are ‘pro-slavery’? Or does it mean that you live in the world and accept things as they are?

The difference is that the bible says to make slaves of others. I never said make slaves of others. The bible in Lev 25 is not just describing slavery as practices it is saying to make slaves of others. The bible also gives rules for the practice.

Lev 25: 44-46 ESV

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

 

[Tom 1]

The difference is that the bible says to make slaves of others. I never said make slaves of others. The bible in Lev 25 is not just describing slavery as practices it is saying to make slaves of others. The bible also gives rules for the practice.

Lev 25: 44-46 ESV

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

Yes - as I said, slavery was an everyday part of life, everywhere, in the ancient world, just as many equally unsavoury things are part of how the world continues to work now.

 

[Tom 1]

The difference is that the bible says to make slaves of others. I never said make slaves of others. The bible in Lev 25 is not just describing slavery as practices it is saying to make slaves of others. The bible also gives rules for the practice.

Lev 25: 44-46 ESV

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

You understand the use of the modal verb ‘may’, yes? You may do this, that. You can do it, it is permissible. You understand the verb ‘to promote’, yes? To promote something, to advertise or campaign in some sense to encourage people to do it. You get the difference - permit/promote? You may, for example, buy a phone without concerning yourself about slave conditions in another, remote, country. Are you promoting slavery as you hand over your $? Are you permitting it? Is it something you give any thought to? If not, why not?