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sin as choices

Beanieboy

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I have strong sexual feelings for the same sex. Shouldn't i embrace those feelings? ( Not me. Just a statement.) Sexual hormones are very active and strong in teens,but they are not really focused. As people get older,they become better able to tell the difference between just being sexually attracted to someone and truly loving them. Research shows that martial and sexual relationships are better for those who wait until they are married to have sex. In fact, in surveys on sexual enjoyment, committed Christians report having better sex lives than other groups.

You make it sound like it's a choice between having pizza or hamburgers for dinner. (Oh - not that I like pizza! It's just a statement.)

If you aren't attracted to the same sex, it's not a choice. It's only a choice if you are attracted to both sexes.

If you didn't choose to be heterosexual, and just found that slowly during adolescence, you started to notice girls, stopped thinking they were dumb and had cooties, to noticing the small things - the nape of a neck, calves, the softness of skin - then you didn't choose. It chose you. When you then act on it, you are simply following your nature.

That's the best way I can describe "why" I am gay - to ask the heterosexual person to think back about when they suddenly started feeling attracted to girls. Because they have never had to justify it, they rarely think about it. When you ask when they "knew" they were heterosexual, or when they were first attracted, or when they were first strongly attracted, when they suddenly think, they have to go from cootie shot and ignoring girls to first kiss and noticing them, and for the first time, think about it.
 
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Bombila

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RebelEnigma and allhart:

Conditions in the uterus (hormones, nutrient intake of the mother, blood type of mother and fetus, and so on) are known to have major influences on the fetus. Homosexuality is very likely related to the environment in the uterus. It has been shown to occur more often in the youngest children of women who bear many children - the more children you have, the more likely that the youngest sons will be male homosexuals. That certainly appears to be a natural, and not chosen, end result to me.

Homosexuality has been a fairly consistent percentage of the human population, which also indicates a natural phenomenon. Homosexual behaviour has been observed in most mammal species, in avian species, and some fish are known to go all out and change genders as part of their life cycle.

Homosexuality in humans, speculatively, has value for the species. The previously mentioned large families with youngest as homosexual might serve to slow down population growth (beyond resource capabilities). In agrarian societies, it might mean more adults working to provide for the extended families' children.

Homosexuality in many cultures (but not all) has been punishable by death or torture or imprisonment, yet homosexuals still were and are homosexuals. There have always been those who hide or deny their orientation out of fear and shame and instead make life a misery for themselves and the opposite sex partner they marry. There is no indication, no evidence, that the socalled 'reformed' homosexuals are now heterosexual, just evidence that a few, for a while, can bring themselves to have sex with their opposite gender. I am a heterosexual woman. I can't imagine how repulsed I would feel if I knew the man I loved had to force himself to act as if attracted to my body. I think, psychologically, this would be akin to the raping of both of us.

All of the Biblical passages purported to condemn homosexuality and same sex marriage can and have been argued over, endlessly. Biblical 'marriage', as has been noted, included a lot of forms (all of them designed to ensure the male lineage, interesting, given Jesus was purportedly only human on his mother's side) we would find unacceptable and even illegal today. Using those dubiously interpreted passages in scripture to endlessly condemn homosexuality appears to make certain Christian heterosexuals feel good - at least there's one sin they aren't likely to commit. By harping on this issue (and a look at the archives here will show that homosexuality is the most often discussed and condemned 'sin', well above murder, rape, genocide, theft, covetousness, and greed) Christians make themselves appear unloving, judgemental, unable to review their own scripture with open minds, and even cruel in their attempts to keep apart couples who love each other dearly and harm none. If that is how Christians wish to appear, very well - it is your religion.
 
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allhart

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I think you make a good point.

I often hear Christians saying:
Homosexuality is a choice, and you can change
Gays are going to hell
Gays don't want to get married
Homosexuality is unnatural
Homosexuality is a sin

And then they claim they are doing it in love.

Do they ever ask about our life stories? Our coming out stories? (Most of them are really difficult. One of my friends was disowned. Another was kicked out of the house his last year of high school. Many of us lost our friends. )
Do they really care enough to look at research, both scientific and theoligical?
Do they really care to listen to ex-exgays?
Do they ever speak to gay Christians?

It's more of the "shame shame" and rarely anything else.
It's condemnation, but little else.

Jesus ate with the sinners, to the disgust of the Pharisees. He sat down and ate with them and loved them as people, not sinners. I simply don't see that very often from too many Christians. They would rather preach condemnation from a pulpit than come down from there and simply talk person and ask them about their life. They claim to preach warning in "love", yet have complete ignorance on the subject, on the reality of exgay ministries and ex-exgays, science, theological study or anything outside of six passages of the bible.
Justifying what is wrong is wrong.The bible make it clear everyone has sinned.You mix up your emotions and play on others emotions for sympathy or you just get angry. Remember the difference between being tempted to do something and doing it. Jesus was tempted ;however, he never acted on any of what he was drawn to.The truth of the matter is that God still has a moral code.Some sins we are drawn to more than others and for each person it is different. I am effected by them all! Our feeling are miss leading and we need to get them in aligned with god's will for our lives. God only wants the best for our lives. He is the lovers of our souls. Really! you need to soul search the love letters he has written for us. May God bless you and give you insight!
 
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allhart

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RebelEnigma and allhart:

Conditions in the uterus (hormones, nutrient intake of the mother, blood type of mother and fetus, and so on) are known to have major influences on the fetus. Homosexuality is very likely related to the environment in the uterus. It has been shown to occur more often in the youngest children of women who bear many children - the more children you have, the more likely that the youngest sons will be male homosexuals. That certainly appears to be a natural, and not chosen, end result to me.

Homosexuality has been a fairly consistent percentage of the human population, which also indicates a natural phenomenon. Homosexual behaviour has been observed in most mammal species, in avian species, and some fish are known to go all out and change genders as part of their life cycle.

Homosexuality in humans, speculatively, has value for the species. The previously mentioned large families with youngest as homosexual might serve to slow down population growth (beyond resource capabilities). In agrarian societies, it might mean more adults working to provide for the extended families' children.

Homosexuality in many cultures (but not all) has been punishable by death or torture or imprisonment, yet homosexuals still were and are homosexuals. There have always been those who hide or deny their orientation out of fear and shame and instead make life a misery for themselves and the opposite sex partner they marry. There is no indication, no evidence, that the socalled 'reformed' homosexuals are now heterosexual, just evidence that a few, for a while, can bring themselves to have sex with their opposite gender. I am a heterosexual woman. I can't imagine how repulsed I would feel if I knew the man I loved had to force himself to act as if attracted to my body. I think, psychologically, this would be akin to the raping of both of us.

All of the Biblical passages purported to condemn homosexuality and same sex marriage can and have been argued over, endlessly. Biblical 'marriage', as has been noted, included a lot of forms (all of them designed to ensure the male lineage, interesting, given Jesus was purportedly only human on his mother's side) we would find unacceptable and even illegal today. Using those dubiously interpreted passages in scripture to endlessly condemn homosexuality appears to make certain Christian heterosexuals feel good - at least there's one sin they aren't likely to commit. By harping on this issue (and a look at the archives here will show that homosexuality is the most often discussed and condemned 'sin', well above murder, rape, genocide, theft, covetousness, and greed) Christians make themselves appear unloving, judgemental, unable to review their own scripture with open minds, and even cruel in their attempts to keep apart couples who love each other dearly and harm none. If that is how Christians wish to appear, very well - it is your religion.
The pharisees were religious and they crucified Jesus. Thats not me! Sorry! I have a personal one on one relationship with him and their is absolutes is in the world of chaos.
 
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Bombila

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The pharisees were religious and they crucified Jesus. Thats not me! Sorry! I have a personal one on one relationship with him and their is absolutes is in the world of chaos.

You have not responded to even one part of my post which you quoted in full.

I would guess because you cannot.
 
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Blockwell

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allhart said:
The same is in homosexuality, People decide at the time knowing the fatal results of their action and still make the choice.

Allhart, I agree with you wholeheartedly about addiction and choice. Even when someone is addicted to a drug they still have the power of choice and must take responsibility for continuing a destructive behavior, but when a personal behavior is only harming family and friends because they disapprove of it, then that is another matter completely.

You cannot make a blanket statement like choosing to act on same-sex attractions is fatal without losing credibility. I have been acting on mine for nearly thirty years without any physical or emotional repercussions at all. I am 47 years of age, in the tenth year of my second relationship (my first partner died in an aviation accident) and I have never had a sexually transmitted disease and I am currently in excellent health. I have a wonderful partner, a great job, a house nearly paid for and a life that a thoroughly enjoy. As I look out my window at the glorious New Hampshire foliage on this beautiful autumn day, I would not change my life for anyone else. If I did believe in god I would certainly thank him for making me gay. Without that difference I would never have become the man I am today.

If people close to me choose to be offended or hurt at my life choices then that is their issue and not mine. Would you change your faith to make your parent’s happy?

Blockwell
 
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allhart

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Allhart, I agree with you wholeheartedly about addiction and choice. Even when someone is addicted to a drug they still have the power of choice and must take responsibility for continuing a destructive behavior, but when a personal behavior is only harming family and friends because they disapprove of it, then that is another matter completely.

You cannot make a blanket statement like choosing to act on same-sex attractions is fatal without losing credibility. I have been acting on mine for nearly thirty years without any physical or emotional repercussions at all. I am 47 years of age, in the tenth year of my second relationship (my first partner died in an aviation accident) and I have never had a sexually transmitted disease and I am currently in excellent health. I have a wonderful partner, a great job, a house nearly paid for and a life that a thoroughly enjoy. As I look out my window at the glorious New Hampshire foliage on this beautiful autumn day, I would not change my life for anyone else. If I did believe in god I would certainly thank him for making me gay. Without that difference I would never have become the man I am today.

If people close to me choose to be offended or hurt at my life choices then that is their issue and not mine. Would you change your faith to make your parent’s happy?

Blockwell
All people are held to God's moral code whether they are born with a genetic or prenatal hormonal predisposition to disobey that code or not. Did you ask God about your choice?For he will ask you of that choice when you die!
 
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flicka

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All people are held to God's moral code whether they are born with a genetic or prenatal hormonal predisposition to disobey that code or not. Did you ask God about your choice?For he will ask you of that choice when you die!
God won't have to ask anything, he would already know. At least that's what I'm told.
 
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allhart

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You have not responded to even one part of my post which you quoted in full.

I would guess because you cannot.
Love comes in all different ways. Some of it is called tough love.I don't have a personal relationship with you ,however out of my compassion for a eternal life out look! I speak out in love.Your short life time investment has a forever lasting life time benefit and i would enjoy your company forever.I am not condescending. I come with humility and brokenness as well in my life. Grace be given by God as well as the law be given.Grace,mercy(justice)most people don't want to hear or deal with justice ,however it is still absolutely their.
 
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allhart

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God won't have to ask anything, he would already know. At least that's what I'm told.
But if you or any person hasn't dealt with the issues. They will be dealt with. Also judgment is going to be forwarded to everyone. More less you and i will give an account verbally with the creator. Being for him or against doesn't matter. But he will discuss it with you. You are able to plead you case.So in judgment there will be no doubt why you are there.If that be the case. which i hope not!
 
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IzzyPop

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I have strong sexual feelings for the same sex. Shouldn't i embrace those feelings? ( Not me. Just a statement.) Sexual hormones are very active and strong in teens,but they are not really focused. As people get older,they become better able to tell the difference between just being sexually attracted to someone and truly loving them. Research shows that martial and sexual relationships are better for those who wait until they are married to have sex. In fact, in surveys on sexual enjoyment, committed Christians report having better sex lives than other groups.
And that has exactly what to do with anything I posted above?

My parents were in their late twenties when my father came out. Not a teenager. My mother was in her 30's. Not a teenager. Any other misconceptions you would like for me to correct?
 
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IzzyPop

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All people are held to God's moral code whether they are born with a genetic or prenatal hormonal predisposition to disobey that code or not. Did you ask God about your choice?For he will ask you of that choice when you die!
Really? I have a seriously disabled cousin. Blind, deaf, and severely mentally handicapped. His ability to communicate is limited to that of a newborn child. He cries when he needs something and the caretaker has to guess what is upsetting him. He cannot be told of Jesus or of god's moral code. So he is doomed to hell because of his prenatal genetic situation? If not, how is it any different from being born gay?
 
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M

MrPirate

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lets go back to your post http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=39967749&postcount=46
you didn’t understand how a Christians standing up for truth could EVER be considered a bigot.

Well those nice people in the robes in hoods are Christians standing up for the truth (at least their personal interpretation of it) These people use Christianity and the bible to prop up their justifications for their personal prejudices against non-whites just as some people use Christianity and the bible to prop up their justifications for their personal prejudices against homosexuals. Racists deny hating any non-whites individually, their issue Is when non-whites defy scripture and act or pretend to be socially equal to whites. Its their version of hate the sin, love the sinner.

While many gnash their teeth at the notion using the bible to justify prejudice against one group is no different from using the bible to justify discrimination against another group.

Hate is hate no matter who it is directed against. And it is hate no matter if one can quote bible verses as a justification.
 
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MrPirate

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I have strong sexual feelings for the same sex. Shouldn't i embrace those feelings? ( Not me. Just a statement.) Sexual hormones are very active and strong in teens,but they are not really focused. As people get older,they become better able to tell the difference between just being sexually attracted to someone and truly loving them. Research shows that martial and sexual relationships are better for those who wait until they are married to have sex. In fact, in surveys on sexual enjoyment, committed Christians report having better sex lives than other groups.
Sorry. The facts don’t support this one.

Studies have shown that the happiest and longest lasting marriages are those that take place between two people who lived together for at least three years before they got married

A. Demaris A Comparison of Remarriages with First Marriages on Satisfaction in Marriage and Its Relationship to Prior Cohabitation Family Relations, Vol. 33, No. 3, Remarriage and Stepparenting (Jul., 1984), pp. 443-449

A DeMaris, G. R. Leslie.Cohabitation with the Future Spouse: Its Influence upon Marital Satisfaction and Communication Journal of Marriage and the Family, Vol. 46, No. 1 (Feb., 1984), pp. 77-84
 
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Beanieboy

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Justifying what is wrong is wrong.The bible make it clear everyone has sinned.You mix up your emotions and play on others emotions for sympathy or you just get angry. Remember the difference between being tempted to do something and doing it. Jesus was tempted ;however, he never acted on any of what he was drawn to.The truth of the matter is that God still has a moral code.Some sins we are drawn to more than others and for each person it is different. I am effected by them all! Our feeling are miss leading and we need to get them in aligned with god's will for our lives. God only wants the best for our lives. He is the lovers of our souls. Really! you need to soul search the love letters he has written for us. May God bless you and give you insight!

I said nothing about justifying sin. I said that Jesus loved people by doing things like eating with the sinners. He didn't justify prostitution or tax collectors, but he treated them like people, and did things like eat with them. He didn't simply preach hell and brimstone to them.

If you wanted to reach out to a prostitute, for example, you must first create a relationship. Simply preaching that it is a sin will do very little. It's hard when you may find out that she was raped by her father, and that's why she ran away. It's easier to simply judge without knowing any background, scratching the surface, and then patting yourself on the back.

It appears that you inability to read my post and respond to it, where I was simply saying that if you truly careed, you might want to actually talk to gay people, and find out what their stories are, research sites like www.whosoever.org, go to sites like GodHatesF*gs.com, and see what we all go through.

Don't simply phone in your "love." Demonstrate it.

Btw - do you ever address people's posts?
You didn't address Blockwell's post either.
 
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allhart

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Really? I have a seriously disabled cousin. Blind, deaf, and severely mentally handicapped. His ability to communicate is limited to that of a newborn child. He cries when he needs something and the caretaker has to guess what is upsetting him. He cannot be told of Jesus or of god's moral code. So he is doomed to hell because of his prenatal genetic situation? If not, how is it any different from being born gay?
Accountability is the key and God is all knowing past, present and future.God knows us! Ya'know we are living between Genesis and Revelation. God is true and just,but their is more life beyond Rev.There is Family members I have, i wondered about ,but not quite like your situation ;however God is a good God.His judgment is all knowing. Grace will be given as well as mercy.Also the opportunities to except God is given to everyone, but for some their is innocence that gives them the right of passage.We need to think about our selves as well sir!:idea:
 
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TheOutsider

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Well those nice people in the robes in hoods are Christians standing up for the truth (at least their personal interpretation of it) These people use Christianity and the bible to prop up their justifications for their personal prejudices against non-whites just as some people use Christianity and the bible to prop up their justifications for their personal prejudices against homosexuals. Racists deny hating any non-whites individually, their issue Is when non-whites defy scripture and act or pretend to be socially equal to whites. Its their version of hate the sin, love the sinner.

Yeah, but everyone knows that they aren't really really True Christians (tm). :doh:
 
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allhart

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I said nothing about justifying sin. I said that Jesus loved people by doing things like eating with the sinners. He didn't justify prostitution or tax collectors, but he treated them like people, and did things like eat with them. He didn't simply preach hell and brimstone to them.

If you wanted to reach out to a prostitute, for example, you must first create a relationship. Simply preaching that it is a sin will do very little. It's hard when you may find out that she was raped by her father, and that's why she ran away. It's easier to simply judge without knowing any background, scratching the surface, and then patting yourself on the back.

It appears that you inability to read my post and respond to it, where I was simply saying that if you truly careed, you might want to actually talk to gay people, and find out what their stories are, research sites like www.whosoever.org, go to sites like GodHatesF*gs.com, and see what we all go through.

Don't simply phone in your "love." Demonstrate it.

Btw - do you ever address people's posts?
You didn't address Blockwell's post either.
To you and Mrpirate.You want to be angry with me O.K. ,but please keep my accountability to you on my own merit.Not this rhetoric that others play . My, if you persecute Jesus you will be doing the same to me. For I get my insight on a biblical view.Also i don't hate the person ,but i hate sin and i account for sin on my own behalf.I look in the mirror everyday! To love myself i have to see to change the evil things in my life and i have to see it some time from an outside point of view.To get a true alignment you have to reference something that is true.That Is GOD:amen: Amen means true!
 
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