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sin as choices

Bombila

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No one has ever answered the question: why does God care who we love? What harm is there in loving any adult you fall in love with? Why is God concerned with this physical dimension? God has not been noted to care how we blow our noses, whether we spit on the sidewalk, how often we empty our bowels, and is apparently no longer too concerned about whether menstruating women enter the church, so why do you think he is so concerned about with what gender we express our love and tenderness?

How does a woman loving a woman harm anyone; why does this displease God? What is the reason?
 
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rebelEnigma

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No one has ever answered the question: why does God care who we love? What harm is there in loving any adult you fall in love with? Why is God concerned with this physical dimension? God has not been noted to care how we blow our noses, whether we spit on the sidewalk, how often we empty our bowels, and is apparently no longer too concerned about whether menstruating women enter the church, so why do you think he is so concerned about with what gender we express our love and tenderness?

How does a woman loving a woman harm anyone; why does this displease God? What is the reason?

It's not the loving someone that's the problem, it's the lusting and the fact that it completely goes against the natural order that God has set. God ordained that marriage is between a man and a woman, not two men or two women; it is an abomination in His sight, a defect if you will.
 
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allhart

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No one has ever answered the question: why does God care who we love? What harm is there in loving any adult you fall in love with? Why is God concerned with this physical dimension? God has not been noted to care how we blow our noses, whether we spit on the sidewalk, how often we empty our bowels, and is apparently no longer too concerned about whether menstruating women enter the church, so why do you think he is so concerned about with what gender we express our love and tenderness?

How does a woman loving a woman harm anyone; why does this displease God? What is the reason?
In the New testament, the practice of homosexuality is considered unnatural and sinful. The bible makes it clear that everyone has sinned and no one is good enough to please God. The bible also says that while we were still sinners, Jesus died for us We have to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.(Romans 1:27, 3:23; 5:8; 6:23; 10:; ! Corinthians 6:9; 1 Timothy 1 :10; Jude 1:7)
 
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Bombila

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It's not the loving someone that's the problem, it's the lusting and the fact that it completely goes against the natural order that God has set. God ordained that marriage is between a man and a woman, not two men or two women; it is an abomination in His sight, a defect if you will.

Why? Lusting is physical sexual attraction, and occurs in heterosexuals as well.

As for 'natural order', we daily go against the natural order by using technology to interfere with when and how people live or die, whether or not they have children, and so on.

Homosexuals can still procreate, if not with their same gender partners, and heterosexuals sometimes are unable to procreate at all, so procreation cannot be God's reason for considering same sex love to be an abomination (not to mention we're on our way to preocreating ourselves off the planet). Given that God actually does consider two women marrying to be an abomination, the question remains: why?

Even if God considers homosexuality a 'defect', then why is that defect an abomination, while other defects, such as Down's syndrome or spina bifida, or even hermaphroditism, for that matter, are not abominations?
 
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MrPirate

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It's not the loving someone that's the problem, it's the lusting and the fact that it completely goes against the natural order that God has set. God ordained that marriage is between a man and a woman, not two men or two women; it is an abomination in His sight, a defect if you will.
Have you ever looked at the list of abominations that the bible lays out?

Eating shellfish is an abomination
Pride is an abomination
Shaving is an abomination
Gossip is an abomination

Oh and discrimination against other people is an abomination
 
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MrPirate

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In the New testament, the practice of homosexuality is considered unnatural and sinful. The bible makes it clear that everyone has sinned and no one is good enough to please God. The bible also says that while we were still sinners, Jesus died for us We have to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.(Romans 1:27, 3:23; 5:8; 6:23; 10:; ! Corinthians 6:9; 1 Timothy 1 :10; Jude 1:7)
Homosexuality is not mentioned in the new testament…or the old for that matter
 
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I Just Believe In Me

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In a sense, though, humans, having a sinful nature, have a penchant for all sin which includes homosexuality. The thing is: we must resist this sinful nature, which is ultimately destructive.
But if we are naturally sinful than god made us that way. So how is it wrong than?
 
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allhart

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Why? Lusting is physical sexual attraction, and occurs in heterosexuals as well.

As for 'natural order', we daily go against the natural order by using technology to interfere with when and how people live or die, whether or not they have children, and so on.

Homosexuals can still procreate, if not with their same gender partners, and heterosexuals sometimes are unable to procreate at all, so procreation cannot be God's reason for considering same sex love to be an abomination (not to mention we're on our way to preocreating ourselves off the planet). Given that God actually does consider two women marrying to be an abomination, the question remains: why?

Even if God considers homosexuality a 'defect', then why is that defect an abomination, while other defects, such as Down's syndrome or spina bifida, or even hermaphroditism, for that matter, are not abominations?
"Natural order" We are not God's "procreate" God created pleasure!Jesus was kind, forgiving,and protective of people who sinned sexually. But he also commanded these same people to stop sinning. Jesus loved the person,but did not accept and approve of their actions.(Luke 7 :37-48; John 8:3-11; 1 Peter 3:15,16) He is the designer.We are not superior beings knowing all and a designer knows what his creation is made for.He is the source and the source can and will be understood from the bible. This is his way to communicate to us.Also feeling are not alway best thing to follow for we are a chaotic emotional people and are feelings are ever changing never consistent or reliable. Not foolproof! Superior we are not. We like to think so.(TRUTH ) Isaiah 55:8-9
 
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allhart

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Homosexuality is not mentioned in the new testament…or the old for that matter
Yes, the bible lists homosexuality along with other sins. In the Old testament,homosexual behavior is considered a crime punishable by death.The death penalty, however, is also prescribed for murder,human sacrifice,adultery,incest,rape,fornication,witchcraft,idolatry,blasphemy,desecration of the sabbath,perjury,theft,kidnapping contempt of court,treason,cursing a parent,physically abusing one's parent,and disobeying parents.(Genesis 9:5,6; 18:16-19:29; Exodus 21:15-17;22:18-20; Leviticus 18:22; 20:2-16; 24:11-6; Numbers 15:32-36; Deuteronomy 17:6-12;21:18-21;22:21-25)
 
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rebelEnigma

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Why? Lusting is physical sexual attraction, and occurs in heterosexuals as well.

There's a difference between lust and attraction: lust completely separates the soul from the body. Attraction is merely noticing a person's physical beauty and finding it pleasing. A read this quote somewhere, telling the difference between lust and love: lust craves the body, love craves the soul. Just thought I'd mention that.

As for 'natural order', we daily go against the natural order by using technology to interfere with when and how people live or die, whether or not they have children, and so on.

We are not going against the natural order because we are manipulating material already given to us by the earth and putting it to good use. Homosexuality isn't like this since it's an attraction to the same sex, something that is contrary to nature.

Homosexuals can still procreate, if not with their same gender partners,

Then, for no other reason, homosexuality is an evolutionary dead-end if they cannot reproduce. How could they possibly pass on their genes if they can't procreate with their partners?

and heterosexuals sometimes are unable to procreate at all,

That is a physical problem and something completely beyond their control, much like other bodily problems: a misfunction of something natural.

so procreation cannot be God's reason for considering same sex love to be an abomination (not to mention we're on our way to preocreating ourselves off the planet). Given that God actually does consider two women marrying to be an abomination, the question remains: why?

It is wrong because God ordained that marriage is between one man and one woman. That's the reason, and homosexuality is a violation and a perversion of that. In short, fundamentally, it's wrong because God says so.

Even if God considers homosexuality a 'defect', then why is that defect an abomination, while other defects,such as Down's syndrome or spina bifida, or even hermaphroditism, for that matter, are not abominations?

Because those things are not under the victim's control. They can't simply change from being a Down's syndrome patient to a person without that disorder. Homosexuals, however, can, as is shown by untold numbers of former homosexuals. If it were something they couldn't change, then there would be no former-homosexuals today.

Have you ever looked at the list of abominations that the bible lays out?

Yes. And those applied to the Israelites only because they were to be a people set apart for God.


Eating shellfish is an abomination

Only because they carried numerous diseases, many of which the Israelites did not know about. Most of the laws in the Pentateuch were done for hygiene.

Pride is an abomination

Yes, and I'm fairly certain that this was the sin that Lucifer was convicted of and thrown out of heaven for, not before he led 1/3 of the angels to hell with him.

Shaving is an abomination

God gave that law only the Israelites. It is no longer required, nor was it ever an abomination. It was merely something God said "Don't do, you are my people, and I want you to live this way."

Gossip is an abomination

Yes.

Oh and discrimination against other people is an abomination

You seem to think that I hate homosexuals. On the contrary, I love homosexuals very much and wish them the best of luck. That being said, I do not approve of homosexuality and find it abhorrent. Nevertheless, I won't go to a homosexual's door and say "Change or die". If you think that just because I find another's behavior distasteful, I'm a bigot, you are mistaken.

But if we are naturally sinful than god made us that way. So how is it wrong than?

The sin nature came from Adam and Eve's disobedience and is thus passed down through their offspring. Having a sin nature is not, in and of itself sin because we personally did not have a choice regarding it's passage to us. That being said, it is wrong to act on it, and furthermore, having this sinful nature prevents us from entering heaven. Jesus Christ, however, had no sinful nature and did not sin (He could have, should He have chosen to, otherwise the whole experience was meaningless). Understand, it is not a good thing to have a sinful nature, much in the same way that it is not good to have a disease, it's destructive and deadly. It is not necessarily our (us here) fault for having a sin nature (specifically, it's Adam and Eve's), but what is our fault is acting upon that nature.
 
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MrPirate

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If it were conclusively proven that there was a gene that created an attraction towards members of the same sex, I would say yes, it would still be immoral. I really don't see how there can be a gay gene though; that's similar to saying that there is a gene that causes one to have a penchant for thievery or murder, an unnatural desire to murder. You see what I mean?
For centuries racists have used the tactic you are employing here.

A racists will compare skin color to a crime, usually a sex based crime, rape of white women by black men was a popular motif to help justify their own personal prejudices. it was a dishonest and dishonorable tactic just as it is here and now when you employ it here in pursuit of justifying your own personal prejudices
 
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MrPirate

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Yes, the bible lists homosexuality along with other sins. In the Old testament,homosexual behavior is considered a crime punishable by death.The death penalty, however, is also prescribed for murder,human sacrifice,adultery,incest,rape,fornication,witchcraft,idolatry,blasphemy,desecration of the sabbath,perjury,theft,kidnapping contempt of court,treason,cursing a parent,physically abusing one's parent,and disobeying parents.(Genesis 9:5,6; 18:16-19:29; Exodus 21:15-17;22:18-20; Leviticus 18:22; 20:2-16; 24:11-6; Numbers 15:32-36; Deuteronomy 17:6-12;21:18-21;22:21-25)
The problem with using Leviticus to prop up personal prejudice is three fold.

First we live under a new covenant with the command of Jesus as law. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34-35

to use Leviticus to condemn gay men is to ignore Jesus.

The second problem is one of application. I sincerely doubt that you personally follow all the varied laws listed in Leviticus.
Do you for example cut your hair? (I bet you do) if so you are sinning by breaking Lev. 19:27
Leviticus also says:
That eating pork is a sin (Lev. 11:7)
That eating lobster or shrimp or scallops or oysters is a sin (Lev. 11:10-12)
That wearing clothing made of different fabrics is a sin (Lev. 19:19)
That partaking in modern agriculture is a sin (Lev. 19:19)
That shaving is a sin (Lev. 19:27)
That contact with a woman during her period is a sin (Lev. 20:18)
That dining on escargot is a sin (Lev. 11:42)
That attending Church while wearing glasses is a sin or allowing anyone wearing glasses into your church is a sin(Lev 21:20)
That allowing anyone born with scoliosis into your church is a sin (Lev 21:20)
That allowing anyone who is handicapped into your church is a sin (Lev 21:20)

If you do not follow these laws then you have no business picking and choosing other laws of Leviticus to inflict upon others.


And third…and the real problem with using Leviticus to justify personal prejudice is that it does not condemn homosexuality at all.


Leviticus has many laws about having carnal relations with of another person the Hebrew word for sexual intercourse or carnal relations is shakhabh. Multiple times we can find prohibitions about having carnal relations with any number of people. (though it is surprising to see who is not included) what we do not find in either Leviticus 18:22 or 20:13 is a prohibition of carnal relations (shakhabh) between two men. In literal translations we do not even find the strange and awkwardly worded “though shall not lie” is the Hebrew mishkabh, which elsewhere is translate as to lay on the ground next to and not considered to be sinful. Rather in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 we find the Hebrew word shakab. Shakab is used 52 times in the old testament and is always used to a sexual encounter typified by deceit or force, in other words, some type of rape.
Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 says that a man shall not force, or in any way coerce, another man to have sex. In other words, it is an abomination to rape a man. Homosexuality and consensual homosexual intercourse are not abominations and not sins. And a man raping a man is no more a description of homosexuality than a man raping a woman is a description of heterosexuality.

 
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rebelEnigma

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"And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." --Romans 1:27, KJV

You cannot deny what it says here, my friend. It specifically condemns homosexuality.

And this is from the New Testament.
 
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allhart

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For centuries racists have used the tactic you are employing here.

A racists will compare skin color to a crime, usually a sex based crime, rape of white women by black men was a popular motif to help justify their own personal prejudices. it was a dishonest and dishonorable tactic just as it is here and now when you employ it here in pursuit of justifying your own personal prejudices
(Straight talk)Truth can not be avoided. You are not able to justify your mere existence ,so how can you justify your feelings.
 
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allhart

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The problem with using Leviticus to prop up personal prejudice is three fold.

First we live under a new covenant with the command of Jesus as law. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34-35

to use Leviticus to condemn gay men is to ignore Jesus.

The second problem is one of application. I sincerely doubt that you personally follow all the varied laws listed in Leviticus.
Do you for example cut your hair? (I bet you do) if so you are sinning by breaking Lev. 19:27
Leviticus also says:
That eating pork is a sin (Lev. 11:7)
That eating lobster or shrimp or scallops or oysters is a sin (Lev. 11:10-12)
That wearing clothing made of different fabrics is a sin (Lev. 19:19)
That partaking in modern agriculture is a sin (Lev. 19:19)
That shaving is a sin (Lev. 19:27)
That contact with a woman during her period is a sin (Lev. 20:18)
That dining on escargot is a sin (Lev. 11:42)
That attending Church while wearing glasses is a sin or allowing anyone wearing glasses into your church is a sin(Lev 21:20)
That allowing anyone born with scoliosis into your church is a sin (Lev 21:20)
That allowing anyone who is handicapped into your church is a sin (Lev 21:20)

If you do not follow these laws then you have no business picking and choosing other laws of Leviticus to inflict upon others.


And third…and the real problem with using Leviticus to justify personal prejudice is that it does not condemn homosexuality at all.


Leviticus has many laws about having carnal relations with of another person the Hebrew word for sexual intercourse or carnal relations is shakhabh. Multiple times we can find prohibitions about having carnal relations with any number of people. (though it is surprising to see who is not included) what we do not find in either Leviticus 18:22 or 20:13 is a prohibition of carnal relations (shakhabh) between two men. In literal translations we do not even find the strange and awkwardly worded “though shall not lie” is the Hebrew mishkabh, which elsewhere is translate as to lay on the ground next to and not considered to be sinful. Rather in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 we find the Hebrew word shakab. Shakab is used 52 times in the old testament and is always used to a sexual encounter typified by deceit or force, in other words, some type of rape.
Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 says that a man shall not force, or in any way coerce, another man to have sex. In other words, it is an abomination to rape a man. Homosexuality and consensual homosexual intercourse are not abominations and not sins. And a man raping a man is no more a description of homosexuality than a man raping a woman is a description of heterosexuality.
e·quiv·o·ca·tion1.the use of equivocal or ambiguous expressions, esp. in order to mislead or hedge; prevarication. 2.an equivocal, ambiguous expression; equivoque: The speech was marked by elaborate equivocations. 3.Logic. a fallacy caused by the double meaning of a word.
 
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FadingWhispers3

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If I recall correctly, Jesus' blood covers past, present, and future sins such that if someone will repent, then God is faithful to forgive. But there are a lot of people who seem to think that homosexuality is the worst sin, for some reason. Paul, former butcherer of Christians can be forgiven, but not homosexuals? Doesn't the bible say that all have sinned and fallen short? I don't get it.

Some Christians have sometimes sinned, some even hypocritically, yet people empathize and forgive them. But when it comes to homosexuals, people don't believe that they can be Christian. A preacher can commit adultery and yet no one believes a Christian can be homosexual? Didn't Jesus say that only the sick need a doctor? I don't get it.

There is a substantial group of people who *ARE* bigots against homosexuals and would gladly beat a dozen bloody for an afternoon's entertainment.

Or even some, like Fred Phelps, who believe that dead homosexuals are burning in hell... and rejoice rather than mourn.
 
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allhart

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The problem with using Leviticus to prop up personal prejudice is three fold.

First we live under a new covenant with the command of Jesus as law. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34-35

to use Leviticus to condemn gay men is to ignore Jesus.

The second problem is one of application. I sincerely doubt that you personally follow all the varied laws listed in Leviticus.
Do you for example cut your hair? (I bet you do) if so you are sinning by breaking Lev. 19:27
Leviticus also says:
That eating pork is a sin (Lev. 11:7)
That eating lobster or shrimp or scallops or oysters is a sin (Lev. 11:10-12)
That wearing clothing made of different fabrics is a sin (Lev. 19:19)
That partaking in modern agriculture is a sin (Lev. 19:19)
That shaving is a sin (Lev. 19:27)
That contact with a woman during her period is a sin (Lev. 20:18)
That dining on escargot is a sin (Lev. 11:42)
That attending Church while wearing glasses is a sin or allowing anyone wearing glasses into your church is a sin(Lev 21:20)
That allowing anyone born with scoliosis into your church is a sin (Lev 21:20)
That allowing anyone who is handicapped into your church is a sin (Lev 21:20)

If you do not follow these laws then you have no business picking and choosing other laws of Leviticus to inflict upon others.


And third…and the real problem with using Leviticus to justify personal prejudice is that it does not condemn homosexuality at all.


Leviticus has many laws about having carnal relations with of another person the Hebrew word for sexual intercourse or carnal relations is shakhabh. Multiple times we can find prohibitions about having carnal relations with any number of people. (though it is surprising to see who is not included) what we do not find in either Leviticus 18:22 or 20:13 is a prohibition of carnal relations (shakhabh) between two men. In literal translations we do not even find the strange and awkwardly worded “though shall not lie” is the Hebrew mishkabh, which elsewhere is translate as to lay on the ground next to and not considered to be sinful. Rather in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 we find the Hebrew word shakab. Shakab is used 52 times in the old testament and is always used to a sexual encounter typified by deceit or force, in other words, some type of rape.
Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 says that a man shall not force, or in any way coerce, another man to have sex. In other words, it is an abomination to rape a man. Homosexuality and consensual homosexual intercourse are not abominations and not sins. And a man raping a man is no more a description of homosexuality than a man raping a woman is a description of heterosexuality.
Jesus fulfilled the Old testament. We are under Grace; however,he did not abolish the law( Mathew 5: 17 ) How can you have Grace, mercy, and not apply justice. That having a superior all knowing God which knows all of mans heart and most inter thoughts. Read all of Galatians
 
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