Simple Church

[D+C]

I didn't know what to title this thread, but I would like to know how you would answer this. The pastor of a local conservative evangelical, non denominational chapel challenged my Orthodox leanings like this-

Man has erected barriers between themselves and God, such as liturgy, priests etc. What about the group of Christians who have noting but a few pages of the bible and gather together to read, pray and sing? Surely nothing could be closer to the earliest days of our church? So shouldn't worship and praise be that simple, a fellowship of believers coming together to share God's word and worship and pray together?

 

[mickey30981]

I didn't know what to title this thread, but I would like to know how you would answer this. The pastor of a local conservative evangelical, non denominational chapel challenged my Orthodox leanings like this-

Man has erected barriers between themselves and God, such as liturgy, priests etc. What about the group of Christians who have noting but a few pages of the bible and gather together to read, pray and sing? Surely nothing could be closer to the earliest days of our church? So shouldn't worship and praise be that simple, a fellowship of believers coming together to share God's word and worship and pray together?

You can see what liturgy the earliest Church performed. It was NOT as simple as you may be thinking. It was the Mass! or perhaps in Orthodoxy, the Holy Liturgy! St. Clement in the first century outlines what the Mass looked like then. It was so similar to today that the Catholic Catechism's description of todays Mass was lifted almost verbatim from Clements description.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What about the group of Christians who have noting but a few pages of the bible and gather together to read, pray and sing? Surely nothing could be closer to the earliest days of our church?

except that they did not have any NT written for at least a generation (the earliest NT writings were written in the year 50), and were not put together as the NT until around the turn of the 5th century. what they had was their Liturgy.

So shouldn't worship and praise be that simple, a fellowship of believers coming together to share God's word and worship and pray together?

if it were supposed to be as simple as he postulates, then why does heavenly worship look liturgical? why does the worship in heaven look like what the Orthodox do? Bishop Thomas in the US spoke about the Second Coming, and said that if it happens during his lifetime, he hopes that he is in Church, so he would only notice what happened by the glory.

 

[searn77]

Mickey is right; the earliest worship of the Church was not simple. It was a continuation of Jewish practices. Since I have only made 11 posts so far, due to this forum's rules, I am not allowed to post links. But I'd recommend checking out the Youtube video titled "The Liturgy: From the Ancient Israelites till the Messiah" which shows the similarities between Jewish and Orthodox Christian worship.

Also, I'd recommend googling the following articles, both of which can be found online. They are short and explain how Orthodox liturgical worship is biblical.

1) Worship in the Book of Revelation and the Eastern Orthodox Liturgy --- by Robert Gray

2) Is Orthodox Worship Biblical? --- from the magazine DOXA, Fall 2001 Issue, the quarterly publication of St. Michael's Skete, Canones, New Mexico, under the omophorion of His Eminence DMITRI of Dallas and the South (OCA).

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I didn't know what to title this thread, but I would like to know how you would answer this. The pastor of a local conservative evangelical, non denominational chapel challenged my Orthodox leanings like this-

Man has erected barriers between themselves and God, such as liturgy, priests etc. What about the group of Christians who have noting but a few pages of the bible and gather together to read, pray and sing? Surely nothing could be closer to the earliest days of our church? So shouldn't worship and praise be that simple, a fellowship of believers coming together to share God's word and worship and pray together?

I think it seems to be assumed that others speaking to each other with psalms/hymns and spiritual songs or reading the Word did so outside of Liturgy. However, even in synagouges, the songs sung were done so in a liturgical style. That was a basic part of Jewish culture and heritage. For reference:

• First-century Christian synagogue liturgy | s i l o u a n

Fr. James Bernstein is another excellent individual whom I'd highly recommend studying - if investigating resources such as Fr. James Bernstein and Orthodoxy - OoCities. Fr. James Bernstein is Jewish, grew up in Orthodox Judaism and eventually came into Orthodoxy due to seeing the connections between the Jewish heritage he saw given from the Lord and what was present in the Church. Many Jews, actually, have repeatedly noted how they find that a Judaic heritage is much more present within Liturgical circles than it is in many that simply have a Bible study, a 30 minute sermon and then going home.

Also, others having only the Torah or other scrolls from the OT didn't mean that they didn't want more and would not have gone for it if it was made available in the same way we have it now. And of course, there were other songs done that did not automatically have a liturgical style to it. Some songs sung were based on the cultural heritage of musical styles and oral tradition - some done with clapping and others with dancing and some with repetitious phrases in the same way songs are done today. But that was one aspect of their tradition - liturgical based songs were also present and they would not have been against that.

In any case, in places where there are no liturgical songs available or even priests, that doesn't mean the Lord could not be present - it has happened throughout the Scriptures where the Lord has worked through means that seemed to be little. However, that's not to say that it was always meant to be as such - you can work in it. This is something my priest once said to me on the matter:

Orthodoxy is pre-denominational; therefore all other Christian confessions are incomplete and therefore cannot offer the full healing or therapeutic life that comes from being connected to the Church through the sacraments or channels of grace that Jesus provided. This is not being uncharitable. It is simply stating reality.

This is not a criticism or deriding other confessions anymore than stating a primitive field medical tent in the backcountry of Africa is less effective than a state of the art modern hospital here in the USA. Both serve a similar purpose but one is more effective in surgery, has better trained doctors and nurses, better equipment and methods. In short, Orthodoxy is this state of the art healing facility. Orthodoxy has a proven track record of producing healed people called saints.​

 

[Lukaris]

I think it is good to find a record from the ancient Christian community as to how people would have had an oral faith, sacraments, early clerical offices etc. There is a late 1st century record titled: The Didache (teaching) which does this.

The laity were taught to know to love God & neighbor, the golden rule, a close rendering to the 10 commandments, a summarized sermon on the mount including alms giving, the Lord's prayer, & the prominence of fasting. The Eucharist is central, confession, baptism etc. show the sacraments are apostolic.

Much of what is in the Didache would match what was basic Sunday school teaching found in America a generation ago. The books of the Bible were mostly preached by the early fathers but these same fathers had to sift through & root out those that were false until we could have a Bible. The people needed a church first.

A link to the Didache: CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I didn't know what to title this thread, but I would like to know how you would answer this. The pastor of a local conservative evangelical, non denominational chapel challenged my Orthodox leanings like this-

Man has erected barriers between themselves and God, such as liturgy, priests etc. What about the group of Christians who have noting but a few pages of the bible and gather together to read, pray and sing? Surely nothing could be closer to the earliest days of our church? So shouldn't worship and praise be that simple, a fellowship of believers coming together to share God's word and worship and pray together?

With the focus he made on liturgy and priests, I think I'd wonder on how it was assumed barriers were placed up with them and yet it's not a barrier (based on the same logic) to simply ask another believer to pray for you. ....or, for that matter, not choosing to worship at all with other believers since there were believers who were alone in the Scriptures (not by choice) and yet able to connect with God.

 

[FireDragon76]

Early Christians were primarily Jewish. Judaism has always been liturgical. When the Great Synagogue of London was built in the 18th century, some of the Protestants visiting the services said that it looked like "Popery" due to the emphasis on liturgy.

The idea of a non-liturgical church was the creation of German and English pietists and puritans that imagined that renaissance humanist sensibilities plus a Bible could somehow produce "pure worship". What you get is a couple songs and a lecture.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What you get is a couple songs and a lecture.

yep, St Peter would probably have no idea what he was walking into if he walked into an evangelical parish.

 

[D+C]

Thanks for your replies, I will certainly check those links. I particularly like the idea of the field hospital vs a high tech medical facility. I think in my original post I may have over stated the emphasis the pastor placed on the early church. His focus was much more on the present-day persecuted church, and those Christians who are gathering together in the most grief stricken corners of the earth to read the bible together, with no access to priests or sacraments. He works for the persecuted church as his day job, and regularly meets with leaders from Orthodox churches in places such as Syria and Iraq. In fact there is an Orthodox priest who works in Egypt visiting his church to speak next month. As such this issue is close to his heart. His contention is that christian worship should be as basic as a fellowship of believers. In this context I do like the field hospital imagery. I recognise it in this chapel- currently it is the only bastion of Christianity in this particular community. This is why I support it.

 

[D+C]

If it were supposed to be as simple as he postulates, then why does heavenly worship look liturgical? why does the worship in heaven look like what the Orthodox do?.

This is really interesting, could you expand on this a little please?

 

[ArmyMatt]

This is really interesting, could you expand on this a little please?

well, the OT worship (which was liturgical) was a form and shadow of heavenly things. it served as a prototype for the worship of the Christians, because the worship in heaven is liturgical. does it not make more sense for worship to always be liturgical (that is how Christ worshiped, and how the Apostles continued to worship in Acts)?

read the worship of God in Revelation or anytime you see visions of Him in glory in the OT. there is a censor, chanting music, thrones, prostrations, order, crowns, etc. what was seen in heaven was the model for worship on earth. we don't read the book of Revelation in Church, and one reason is because we DO the book of revelation in Church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

plus, if you think about it, God in the OT was worshiped in heaven by the angels liturgically, when He called Moses to make the Tabernacle it was liturgical, and when the Temples were made the worship was liturgical. when Christ came He not only worshiped liturgically, but He also gave things like Liturgical prayers (the Lord's Prayer) and the deeper meaning of liturgical practices (fasting, prayer, almsgiving). the Apostles continued the hours of prayer and the liturgical calendar. then we get to the end times where God is worshiped liturgically by all creation after the Judgment.

so something to consider is why would God have all this liturgical worship from the dawn of creation until the Apostles. then after the Apostles are gone we are to simplify it, only to be called to liturgical worship again when we either die or when Christ returns? doesn't it make more sense for worship to always be liturgical?

 

[prodromos]

I didn't know what to title this thread, but I would like to know how you would answer this. The pastor of a local conservative evangelical, non denominational chapel challenged my Orthodox leanings like this-

Man has erected barriers between themselves and God, such as liturgy, priests etc. What about the group of Christians who have noting but a few pages of the bible and gather together to read, pray and sing? Surely nothing could be closer to the earliest days of our church? So shouldn't worship and praise be that simple, a fellowship of believers coming together to share God's word and worship and pray together?

When the early Church was being persecuted the Christians still worshipped liturgically. You only have to look at the catacombs and the enduring impact that has had, ie the altar or the altar cloth have relics of saints embedded. Ancient church buildings have been unearthed which demonstrate that even under persecution, the Church still made every effort to have a special sanctified place for worship.

In Communist Romania, they built churches from wood, because they were quicker and easier to rebuild when the Communists burnt them down.

 

[FireDragon76]

From what I've read- early Christian liturgies were not as elaborate as the Byzantine divine liturgy, but the worship services were clearly liturgical.

Liturgical worship persisted into the Reformation... it was only with groups such as the Puritans that wanted to focus on preaching, that there was a move away from liturgy. Puritans and some pietists were heavily influenced by humanism and regarded outward religion as "pomp" and "Popery".

 

[ArmyMatt]

From what I've read- early Christian liturgies were not as elaborate as the Byzantine divine liturgy, but the worship services were clearly liturgical.

Liturgical worship persisted into the Reformation... it was only with groups such as the Puritans that wanted to focus on preaching, that there was a move away from liturgy. Puritans and some pietists were heavily influenced by humanism and regarded outward religion as "pomp" and "Popery".

yep, pretty much. if you look at the earliest records of Christian worship, like in the Didache and St Justin Martyr, they show that worship was Liturgical.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thanks for your replies, I will certainly check those links. I particularly like the idea of the field hospital vs a high tech medical facility. I think in my original post I may have over stated the emphasis the pastor placed on the early church. His focus was much more on the present-day persecuted church, and those Christians who are gathering together in the most grief stricken corners of the earth to read the bible together, with no access to priests or sacraments. He works for the persecuted church as his day job, and regularly meets with leaders from Orthodox churches in places such as Syria and Iraq. In fact there is an Orthodox priest who works in Egypt visiting his church to speak next month. As such this issue is close to his heart. His contention is that christian worship should be as basic as a fellowship of believers. In this context I do like the field hospital imagery. I recognise it in this chapel- currently it is the only bastion of Christianity in this particular community. This is why I support it.

I think something to consider is that worship being very simple isn't necessarily the same as it not being liturgical or structured. That'd be like saying that others in persecuted nations cannot pray the Lord's Prayer because of its structure and that you must somehow pray only what comes to mind on the spot in order for prayer to be authentic. When you don't have things available, of course the Lord can come through and is present in the simple songs of the heart one may sing or in the encouragement that one offers to others....all of that a matter of blessing Christ.

There are many in persecuted nations where the Gospel is spread where they worship saying prayers of the Early Church or using forms of prayers that were based in the liturgical structure of things - and it helps them through. Whether they have priests or sacraments, they can still pray and worship - seeing that worship is a lifestyle and how one lives. (Romans 12:1-3)

 

[D+C]

Thank you for all your replies. I'm in Santorini at the moment and attach this picture I took this morning by way of a thank you!

While I would never, ever compare my situation to the persecuted church, this debate cuts to the heart of my own internal dilemma, whether to "grow where I have been planted, a village with a tiny but active evangelical congregation that supports the Orthodox Church where it is persecuted, where the services are very "Simple Church", with songs and a sermon (I preached myself recently). Or do I pursue the orthodox faith that I am convinced by in my heart, rather than waiting to see what happens in the fullness of time? Which would mean joining a community that is completely separate to the one in which I live.

I think I'll be directing this at the orthodox priest coming to speak at the chapel next month.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Or do I pursue the orthodox faith that I am convinced by in my heart, rather than waiting to see what happens in the fullness of time?

well, if you are convinced of the Orthodox Church, I think you should persue it. and then, by your witness if you are in a small town, you let your Orthodoxy be a light to everyone else. and that is how you bloom where you are planted.

I think I'll be directing this at the orthodox priest coming to speak at the chapel next month.

smart move, my man

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thank you for all your replies. I'm in Santorini at the moment and attach this picture I took this morning by way of a thank you!

While I would never, ever compare my situation to the persecuted church, this debate cuts to the heart of my own internal dilemma, whether to "grow where I have been planted, a village with a tiny but active evangelical congregation that supports the Orthodox Church where it is persecuted, where the services are very "Simple Church", with songs and a sermon (I preached myself recently). Or do I pursue the orthodox faith that I am convinced by in my heart, rather than waiting to see what happens in the fullness of time? Which would mean joining a community that is completely separate to the one in which I live.

I think I'll be directing this at the orthodox priest coming to speak at the chapel next month.

Perhaps it's just me - but when reading what you say, I wonder why it seems like it is an "Either Or" scenario presented with where you're at. If you feel in your heart that you're being led to Orthodoxy - and yet you also love your active evangelical congregation which supports the Orthodox Church where it's persecuted, why not do both? There are many who are Orthodox who still have family and friends in Evangelical circles they stay in contact with - they didn't cut them off simply because they decided to attend an Orthodox parish, nor did they stop keeping up with the work done in the Evangelical churches they valued. There are many places which do keep up with one another - churches for things like "Voice of the Martyrs" and keeping up with the persecution of Christians globally.....and Orthodox Churches that do events with non-Orthodox churches if/when they live in the same community.

Some people to keep in mind would be others such as Dr. Bradley Nassif of the Antiochian Archdiocese. He is an Orthodox Scholar and yet he has also done much with Evangelical organizations that do support Orthodox Churches. Additionally, There was actually a very good thread on the matter which one can investigate - entitled AFR: Lord Send Me, a Conversation (More shared here and here), based on a podcast from Ancient Faith Radio on Fr. John Parker (chairman of the Orthodox Church in America’s Department of Evangelization) reflecting on his visit and interview with one prominent Evangelical Pastor and the subsequent interactions that are common for many within Orthodoxy (as discussed here and here). You can investigate the podcasts of Fr. John at Lord, Send Me - Ancient Faith Radio.

That said, it'd be great for you to pursue Orthodoxy - and by your witness to the small Evangelical church you're with, simply live your life and let your Orthodoxy point others to Christ and help in showing your journey in the Lord.