Signs of the Times... what do you see?

[Archivist]

All irrelevant....until Israel a nation again. And Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews. Which the firm basis for learn a parable of a fig tree.

1967+70 years for a generation = 2037 minus 7 years, puts the beginning of the 70th week sometime between now and 2030.

Assuming that 1967 is the correct starting point. If it isn't then 2030 will be yet another missed date.

As I said, if not even Jesus know the hour and the day then we shouldn't be making guesses.

 

[Douggg]

If you think that this year's signs are nothing, I'm almost loss for words. Those are all Biblical signs. You think God orchestrated them so we can brush them off?

When Daniel asks God what does prophecy concerning end time mean, God says:

"Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand."
Daniel 12:9-10

So God says that what's written in prophecy about end time cannot be understood until the end, and then signs that come out will be understood, but even then not by everybody. This is very powerful proclamation from God.

Listen, let's be wise and check our pride here. I can make a mistake, you can make a mistake, but if something is obivous it's obvious. Year 2017 is big.

Henry, the problem is we have to separate what God says to look for as specific signs to specific end times events, and what we piece together and say oh look at this. The Jubilee year issue is something being pieced together that is not said by God to be tied to any specific end times events.

You say.... Year 2017 is big. Big according to who's criteria? And what do you mean by big? Something special is supposed to happen? I need bible verses that say to connect the Jubilee year to a specific end time event. We should not be creating our criteria and say it is a sign.

 

[Douggg]

Assuming that 1967 is the correct starting point. If it isn't then 2030 will be yet another missed date.

As I said, if not even Jesus know the hour and the day then we shouldn't be making guesses.

Take the frown off your face. Look up your redemption draws near.

We don't know the exact time of the Rapture. I am certainly not making any guesses on that. But we can understand the parable of the fig tree.

The timeframes we do have is the 7 years of the 70th week. And the 70 years for a generation. Jesus never said don't learn a parable of a fig tree, or that there is no use in trying to learn it (which is the spirit of your comment). Jesus gave the parable of a fig tree for our benefit.

 

[HenryM]

Henry, the problem is we have to separate what God says to look for as specific signs to specific end times events, and what we piece together and say oh look at this. The Jubilee year issue is something being pieced together that is not said by God to be tied to any specific end times events.

You say.... Year 2017 is big. Big according to who's criteria? And what do you mean by big? Something special is supposed to happen? I need bible verses that say to connect the Jubilee year to a specific end time event. We should not be creating our criteria and say it is a sign.

I stand with God's clear words on the issue.

"Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand."
Daniel 12:9-10

It is clear as day that nobody could interpret the signs until end days come. And when end days come, some will be able to interpret it.

The year is big according to reality criteria. To have so many rare signs merge on one year, this year, involving the main city of the Bible, using Biblical measurements, is, basically, mathematically impossible. To think it's some sort of a coincidence or that it has some low or no meaning is... let me stop there. You see it or don't, I can't make you. Hopefully, others see it and marvel God's magnificent work.

 

[Archivist]

Take the frown off your face. Look up your redemption draws near.

I wasn't frowning when I typed my earlier post, nor am I frowning now.

We don't know the exact time of the Rapture. I am certainly not making any guesses on that. But we can understand the parable of the fig tree.

The timeframes we do have is the 7 years of the 70th week. And the 70 years for a generation. Jesus never said don't learn a parable of a fig tree, or that there is no use in trying to learn it (which is the spirit of your comment). Jesus gave the parable of a fig tree for our benefit.

Many others have made similar predictions regarding the end times. Thus far each prediction has been wrong. Will Jesus return? Of course. But if even He does not know the day or the hour it isn't up to us to assume that we do.

 

[Douggg]

Many others have made similar predictions regarding the end times. Thus far each prediction has been wrong.

You seem to be saying because others have been wrong in the past, that means the parable of the fig tree can't be understood. That is faulty logic.

But if even He does not know the day or the hour it isn't up to us to assume that we do.

No one is predicting the day nor hour, so your comment is irrelevant. The parable of the fig tree isn't about predicting the day or hour. A generation is not a day nor hour in length. The parable of the fig tree identifies the generation that will not pass away, without Jesus returning to this earth.

 

[Archivist]

You seem to be saying because others have been wrong in the past, that means the parable of the fig tree can't be understood. That is faulty logic.

Nothing faulty about my logic. Others have picked other points in scripture as the signal of the end times in the past. Thus far all have been wrong.

No one is predicting the day nor hour, so your comment is irrelevant. The parable of the fig tree isn't about predicting the day or hour. A generation is not a day nor hour in length. The parable of the fig tree identifies the generation that will not pass away, without Jesus returning to this earth.

No, but you are roughly picking the time when He will return. Why does it matter? Why not just live every day as if Jesus could return that day?

The problem with making predictions is that it discredits Christianity why the prediction fails.

 

[dad]

Tell me, after David defeated Saul (which I hope we can agree is already fulfilled and not future to us) He described that Battle this way: (2 Samuel 22:8-16)
8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

Do you believe these things happened or was David simply hallucinating?

It is called prophesy! How about Psalm 2? You think the nations were already judged or does that refer to the final days? The psalms are about Jesus...you do know that? If not that would explain your total lack of comprehension of Scripture displayed so far.

 

[parousia70]

It is called prophesy! How about Psalm 2? You think the nations were already judged or does that refer to the final days? The psalms are about Jesus...you do know that? If not that would explain your total lack of comprehension of Scripture displayed so far.

2 Samuel 22 is NOT prophesy. It was written about Davids defeat of Saul AFTER it happened:

22 Then David spoke to the Lord the words of this song, on the day when the Lord had delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul. 2 And he said......

...5“When the waves of death surrounded me,
The floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
6 The sorrows of Sheol surrounded me;
The snares of death confronted me.
7 In my distress I called upon the Lord,
And cried out to my God;
He heard my voice from His temple,
And my cry entered His ears.

8 “Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.



And you deride MY lack of comprehension?

 

[dad]

2 Samuel 22 is NOT prophesy. It was written about Davids defeat of Saul AFTER it happened:

22 Then David spoke to the Lord the words of this song, on the day when the Lord had delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul. 2 And he said......

...5“When the waves of death surrounded me,
The floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
6 The sorrows of Sheol surrounded me;
The snares of death confronted me.
7 In my distress I called upon the Lord,
And cried out to my God;
He heard my voice from His temple,
And my cry entered His ears.

8 “Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.



And you deride MY lack of comprehension?

Jesus Himself showed us how prophesy works. It cuts in and out often mid verse! He read from Isa about His first coming, and stopped mid verse because the rest was about His second coming millennia later! In the chapter you read, it seems to make sense that the section below is prophesy, rather than being about a military battle.

9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. 10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet. 11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind. 12 And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.13 Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled. 14 The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice. 15 And he sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them. 16 And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils


Foundations of the world discovered in that battle? They saw the Almighty there flying on angel wings? Where were those waters? Did all the earth hear His voice yelling there? That battle was near the sea, and the channels appeared?

You are right that a lot of this applied to the battle. I don't think we can limit it to that though. Looking at other verses about the final days we see God in battle, taking over the world! I would be surprised if some of this chapter did not refer to that. After all the old testament was like a shadow or picture in many ways of things to come!

 

[Riberra]

But we can understand the parable of the fig tree.

Do you ?The parable of the fig tree /Matthew 24:32-33/ is about Jesus Second Coming mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31.

Verse 33 that the pre-tribbers wifully always ignore: tell us that when we will SEE ALL THESE THINGS HAPPENING WE WILL KNOW THAT THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS TO ESTABLISH HIS KINGDOM ON THE EARTH WILL BE NEAR.
Again there is nothing in these verses about a supposed pre-tribulation rapture.

Matthew 24:32-33
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL THESE THINGS, know that it is near, even at the doors.

 

[parousia70]

Do you ?The parable of the fig tree /Matthew 24:32-33/ is about Jesus Second Coming mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31.

Verse 33 that the pre-tribbers always ignore tell us that when we will SEE ALL THESE THINGS HAPPENING WE WILL KNOW THAT THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS TO ESTABLISH HIS KINGDOM ON THE EARTH WILL BE NEAR.
Again there is nothing in these verses about a supposed pre-tribulation rapture.

Matthew 24:32-33
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL THESE THINGS, know that it is near, even at the doors.

But doesn't "near" mean thousands of years?

 

[Riberra]

But doesn't "near" mean thousands of years?

The -relatively speaking- "NEAR"concerning Jesus Second Coming to establish His Earthly Millennial Kingdom is related to when we SHALL SEE ALL THESE THINGS COME TO PASS...Matthew 24:32-33

The millennial Kingdom of Jesus prophesied to happen on the Earth when Jesus will reign physically with the resurrected Saints/Martyrs [Revelation 20:4-6]have obviously not happened yet...

 

[parousia70]

Jesus Himself showed us how prophesy works. It cuts in and out often mid verse! He read from Isa about His first coming, and stopped mid verse because the rest was about His second coming millennia later! In the chapter you read, it seems to make sense that the section below is prophesy, rather than being about a military battle.

Not so much.
None of this is prophesy, it is all past tense, and in line with many many other examples of How God is depicted as coming down to earth and doing battle time and again.

Foundations of the world discovered in that battle? They saw the Almighty there flying on angel wings? Where were those waters? Did all the earth hear His voice yelling there? That battle was near the sea, and the channels appeared?

Common Hebraic Apocalyptic Language.
This is How the writers of scripture discuss the fall of nations & armies.

The best way to understand apocalyptic writing is to study the many comings of God during the Old Testament times and see how that language is used in past situations. Once we see the way the prophets spoke of God's comings down during the Old Testament times, we are better equipped to think about how God comes all throughout history. Study the following comings of God in history and think about the way in which the prophets use familiar doom language in each case:


God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)


God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)


God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)


God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)


God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)


God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)


God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)


God Comes to Judge Jerusalem at AD 70
I saw, and behold a white cloud; and upon the cloud one sitting like to the Son of man, having on his head a crown of gold, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the temple crying with a loud voice to him that sat upon the cloud: Thrust in thy sickle, and reap, because the hour is come to reap: for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire; and he cried with a loud voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying: Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vineyard of the earth; because the grapes thereof are ripe. And the angel thrust in his sharp sickle into the earth, and gathered the vineyard of the earth, and cast it into the great press of the wrath of God: And the press was trodden without the city (Revelation 14:14-20)

As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.

 

[parousia70]

The "near"concerning Jesus Second Coming is related to when we will see ALL THESE THINGS...

So James got it wrong when he referenced these very words of Christ here?

COMPARE THIS:
Matthew 24:33
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL THESE THINGS, know that it is near, even at the doors.

TO THIS:
James 5:8-9
8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

Surely James was aware of Christ's teaching that it would NOT be "near and at the doors" until certain signs were seen, so why do you think he would claim it was, using the exact "near and at the doors" verbiage even?

John got it wrong too?
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. .... 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

As you pointed out, Jesus specifically instructed them that His coming would NOT be "Near & At the Doors" until certain signs were seen.

Yet we have James and John above claiming that in fact it WAS near and at the doors at the time they were writing.

Either they were wrong, and erroneously taught their error to their flocks, or they saw the signs as Jesus said they would.

Which do you prefer?

 

[James Honigman]

I'm not looking for debate here.
I would rather we don't debate. I don't care if you are pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib.
Jesus said we ought to be watching for His coming, and He told us to watch for the signs.

What have you seen recently, that looks to you like a sign of the end?

Something that excited me today, was when I read about what the Jewish year 5777 means, to rabbis.
5 is the number of Grace.
And 7 is the number of completion.
And 3 repetitions means it's the hand of God at work.

Putting it all together, 5777 means, according to many Jewish rabbis, the year that God completes the work of Grace!

Ephesians 3:2-6 tells us that we are now living in the dispensation of Grace, which is the Gentiles being included in the body of Christ.

Of course, Jesus said there is a time in the future, when the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. Luke 21:24

And Paul said in Romans 11:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved...

Could this be the year? I am not setting a date... but I'm just wondering.
Watching, waiting, and wondering.

I remember how that in 1917, the Balfour Declaration was issued, opening the land of Palestine to Jewish settlement.
And exactly 50 years later, in the 6-day war, Israel gained control of Jerusalem.
forum
This year, 2017... the year 5777 on the Jewish calendar... is exactly 50 years later.
I'm sitting on the edge of my seat!

Love your numbers Polly. Add to them that our generation is exactly six days out from Adam's creation and we are exactly three days out from our Lord's crucifixion. Now consider how the locusts are swarming in the Middle East and how Psalm 83 is being played out on an international stage. Jerusalem is surrounded by her enemies. If you want more, please check out my website, thisgenerationshallnotpass.com

 

[parousia70]

Love your numbers Polly. Add to them that our generation is exactly six days out from Adam's creation and we are exactly three days out from our Lord's crucifixion. Now consider how the locusts are swarming in the Middle East and how Psalm 83 is being played out on an international stage. Jerusalem is surrounded by her enemies. If you want more, please check out my website, thisgenerationshallnotpass.com

Just checked out your website... aside from it being an advertisement for folks to buy your book (which I believe is against Forum Rules) you may want to update it to reflect the fact it's "President Trump and the Ruling Class" now

 

[keras]

So, when 7x7 years, 49 years, pass, next year, 50th year, is Jubilee year. After complete Jubilee cycle (7x7+1=50) is completed, next cycle of 50 years (7x7 + 1) starts.

I am not your math teacher. But to save yourself further embarrassment, I suggest you research the truth of the 49 year cycle further.

 

[Riberra]

So James got it wrong when he referenced these very words of Christ here?

COMPARE THIS:
Matthew 24:33
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL THESE THINGS, know that it is near, even at the doors.

TO THIS:
James 5:8-9
8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

Notice the wording used by James
Behold, the JUDGE is standing at the door! This is talking about a Judgment of God who was going to happen soon concerning the EARLY CHURCH.

John got it wrong too?
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. .... 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Yet we have James and John above claiming thatin fact it WAS near and at the doors at the time they were writing.

That is confirmed by John in the TREE First Chapter of Revelation ...a Judgment -was- going to happen -soon- upon the 7 Churches that were in existence at the Time ...

But there are also things that will come thereafter which represent OTHER EVENTS to happen until the Coming Of Jesus ---which are mentioned in the Seals---Trumpets--- And Vials....

There is good probability that Seal 1 to Seal 5 are still in action since Jesus have ascended to Heaven and it is possible to SEE their effect in [through] the nearly 2,000 years of history since Jesus have ascended to Heaven..

Seal 1:the Gospel preached upon the World
Seal 2: Wars
Seal 3: Famines
Seal 4:WW1 and WW2 who have affected 1/4 of the Earth ie the European Continent
Seal 5:Christians martyrs

 

[keras]

If you think that this year's signs are nothing, I'm almost loss for words. Those are all Biblical signs. You think God orchestrated them so we can brush them off?

Certainly, this year has significance. But we still await the appearance of Elijah, that is: someone with Elijah's powers. Malachi 4:5-6 And other indications, like Isaiah 3:1-7, etc.
We must be prepared for what will happen, as prophesied. Thinking all the prophesies pertain to the State of Israel, or have been fulfilled, is a bad mistake. Parousia ignores the principal that most Bible prophecy is written in the past tense, because of the surety it will come to pass, plus the fact those cosmic and earthly events have never occurred yet.

The Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign is NOT the next event to happen. Much is prophesied before that glorious Day. What will happen next, is the unexpected worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal. We are told to take cover for that Day, Isaiah 26:20-21 and to call upon the Lord for His protection. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21