Shouldn't Creationism be taught at public schools?

[Semper-Fi]

Again, it's not like Hosea is sitting there writing on a piece of paper thinking "wow! I have no idea what's I'm writing about!"

And Hosea responds:
"Sorry guys! I don't actually know what I am writing about! But in the future, people will know!"

We find exactly that in Daniel and other end time prophecies.

23 I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers,
who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known
unto me now what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made
known unto us the king's matter.

Daniel understood only part of Nebuchadnezzars statue/dream"s".
The book of Daniel forecast multiple world events. The emergence
of specific kings and the rise and fall of several empires.

“And I heard, but I understood not; then said I: ‘O my Lord,
what shall be the latter end of these things?’ And he said:
‘Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed
till the time of the end’” (Daniel 12:8-9).

Daniel did not understand everything at that time.
We are now in that prophesied “time of the end”

“And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a
kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not
be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume
all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.”

The Bible says we must test the prophets. If they pass the
test, then we must believe them! (Deuteronomy 18:21-22)

Hosea was a prophet for "the latter days" Hosea 3:5. Hosea was
written also to God’s adulterous wife/church in this end time.

Prophecy Is PROOF of The God of Isreal. Jesus is the Spirit of
Prophecy, and everything came true of his first visit to earth.

The second coming is in actuality a continuation of the first.

Luke 4:14-21 19 ...To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister,
and sat down....21And he began to say unto them, This day is
this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

To preach the acceptable year of the LORD, He stopped reading.
Jesus was reading from Isaiah 61 The Lord's Anointed
2 to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them
beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise
for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of
righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

He came the first time to complete Isaiah 61:1-2 but not all
of verse 2. When He returns, after the day of vengeance,
He will complete verse 2 and forward through verse 7.

There is more Prophecy concerning Christs second trip then His first
that's scattered throughout most of the bible soon to come true.

P.S. Your idea of rev. 13 being a 7 headed myth. sea dragon is laughable.
You should study Daniel first. That should be discussed in another forum.

Did God fight a Chaos Dragon at Creation?

Using the myths of other cultures as a form of theological polemic is something we see in the Hebrew Bible. We see an example in Psalm 74 where God fights Leviathan. Is this literally true? No, but it serves to teach a deeper theological truth. Dr. Michael S. Heiser

www.christianforums.com

 

[Job 33:6]

You made this statement that was proven false in my last post period..........

Job 33:6 said:
Of course the Israelites followed God and not pagan deities.

Yes, Moses in particular did. Who is in discussion here. Pay attention.

Yea, the Israelites struggled with pagan worship, but ultimately they were God's chosen. The one true God. If you would like to debate Doug on this one, you're welcome to, but I'm not going to waste my time if you don't even know what we're talking about.

 

[Semper-Fi]

Yes, Moses in particular did. Who is in discussion here. Pay attention.

You where talking about Hosea. Pay attention.
Moses was not discussed in your post I commented on.

 

[Job 33:6]

You where talking about Hosea. Pay attention.
Moses was not discussed in your post I commented on.

Ok, well when you actually figure out what we were talking about, I'll acknowledge your response. But you clearly have no idea what is going on in this conversation that you just randomly have interjected yourself into.

If anything, your responses are only making my case stronger by giving supporting evidence of why the old testament would describe an ancient near east cosmology, much like their pagan neighbors.

Obviously, informing me that the Israelites struggled with acceptance of pagan beliefs isn't going to help an argument that the old testament is unique in terms of cosmology.

So please, go read up on our discussion before you go around making nonsensical responses.

Of course I would agree with what you're saying as well. But the point I was agreeing with Doug on, is that, Moses, and the Israelites, ultimately followed Yahwey, the one true King of Kings. Our one true God. And that's who the Bible tells the story of. Even if the Israelites did in face struggle with some pagan-like ideas of the ancient near east.

Cosmology however is not inherently pagan. As it's more related to phenomenological perspective of the cosmos, than it is necessarily about what gods someone worships. For example, people can believe in a solid sky and still worship God of the Bible. Just like there are people who believe that the earth is flat today and they call themselves Christians.

Cosmology is not dependent upon a particular religion.

 

[Platte]

Cosmology is not dependent upon a particular religion.

Ancient Jewish Cosmology (like most Christian’s today including myself) begin with God creating the universe approx 6000 years ago and took 6 days.
Your cosmology (pagan) view believes in a big bang and has evolved over 13 billion years ago.
You might want to rethink your last statement

 

[Job 33:6]

Jewish Cosmology (like most Christian’s today including myself) begin with God creating the universe approx 6000 years ago and took 6 days.
Your cosmology (pagan) view believes in a big bang and has evolved over 13 billion years ago.
You might want to rethink your last statement

Not in Judaism of antiquity, it didn't. Rashi, for example,

"Rashi is generally considered a leading biblical exegete in the Middle Ages." Recognized Genesis as describing creation ex materia.

Acclaimed for his ability to present the basic meaning of the text in a concise and lucid fashion, Rashi's commentaries appeal to both learned scholars and beginning students, and his works remain a centerpiece of contemporary Torah study. A large fraction of rabbinic literature published since the Middle Ages discusses Rashi, either using his view as supporting evidence or debating against it. His commentary on the Talmud, which covers nearly all of the Babylonian Talmud, has been included in every edition of the Talmud since its first printing by Daniel Bomberg in the 1520s. His commentaries on the Tanakh—especially his commentary on the Chumash (the "Five Books of Moses")—serves as the basis of more than 300 "supercommentaries" which analyze Rashi's choice of language and citations, penned by some of the greatest names in rabbinic literature.

Rashi - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And if we go back to literature written by Jewish rabbis of the earliest centuries AD, they all acknowledge an ancient cosmology that has nothing to do with the age of the universe.

The whole thing about the universe being 6,000 years old didn't come up until the 1600s or so.

 

[Job 33:6]

Anyone else want to make any blatantly false claims today?

See, you guys just don't get it. You're not debating me right now. You're debating God's word. I don't even have to do anything, I just sit back and read it for what it says.

Genesis 1:1-3-3, 1-3 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Or:
Genesis 1:1-3-3, 1-3 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

 

[Platte]

Not in Judaism of antiquity, it didn't. Rashi, for example,

"Rashi is generally considered a leading biblical exegete in the Middle Ages." Recognized Genesis as describing creation ex materia.

Acclaimed for his ability to present the basic meaning of the text in a concise and lucid fashion, Rashi's commentaries appeal to both learned scholars and beginning students, and his works remain a centerpiece of contemporary Torah study. A large fraction of rabbinic literature published since the Middle Ages discusses Rashi, either using his view as supporting evidence or debating against it. His commentary on the Talmud, which covers nearly all of the Babylonian Talmud, has been included in every edition of the Talmud since its first printing by Daniel Bomberg in the 1520s. His commentaries on the Tanakh—especially his commentary on the Chumash (the "Five Books of Moses")—serves as the basis of more than 300 "supercommentaries" which analyze Rashi's choice of language and citations, penned by some of the greatest names in rabbinic literature.

Rashi - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And if we go back to literature written by Jewish rabbis of the earliest centuries AD, they all acknowledge an ancient cosmology that has nothing to do with the age of the universe.

The whole thing about the universe being 6,000 years old didn't come up until the 1600s or so.

That is absolutely false. Most ancient rabbis took the creation account literally. Flavius Josephus the most famous of all Jewish historians certainly believed the Earth was created approx 3000 years ago and took 6 literal days. This was first century AD. Jewish prophets and rabbis before him believed the same. That was their Cosmology view of the universe.

 

[Platte]

Anyone else want to make any blatantly false claims today?

See, you guys just don't get it. You're not debating me right now. You're debating God's word. I don't even have to do anything, I just sit back and read it for what it says.

Genesis 1:1-3-3, 1-3 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Or:
Genesis 1:1-3-3, 1-3 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Genesis 1:1-5 is a continuous statement (notice the use of the word "And") and represents the first day.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

It doesn't matter if you are YEC, OEC, Dispensationalist, humanistic, scientific, agnostic, atheist, or whatever - this is what the Bible says. There is no pause or any indication by the WRITER to separate the first statement in Genesis 1:1 through to Genesis 1:5 - the WRITER actually ties them all together.

 

[Job 33:6]

That is absolutely false. Most ancient rabbis took the creation account literally. Flavius Josephus the most famous of all Jewish historians certainly believed the Earth was created approx 3000 years ago and took 6 literal days. This was first century AD. Jewish prophets and rabbis before him believed the same. That was their Cosmology view of the universe.

Here is Flavius Josephus on Genesis:

30After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts, and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews.

Not only did he describe a crystalline firmament encircling the earth, but he was also a geocentrist. He didn't know what the universe was, let alone the age of it.

Josephus explains that “[Moses] set the essen in the middle of the outer vestment (µέσον … τῆς ἐφαπτίδος) in the manner of the earth, for it has precisely the middle place” (3.185). He sustains the geocentric model here, viewing the earth as the center of the universe. The geocentric model, anticipating the Ptolemaic system, was the prevalent description of the cosmos in the Greco-Roman period. Although the theory was standardized in the second century CE, as a result of the observations of the Alexandrian astronomer Claudius Ptolemy,54 its roots go back to the pre-Socratic philosophers. In the fourth century BCE, the theory is suggested in Plato’s works,55 but his pupil Aristotle develops an elaborated earth-centered cosmology. For those philosophers, the earth is motionless and lies in the middle of the cosmos. All the other planets, the moon, and the sun revolve around it.56

Wearing the Cosmos: The High Priestly Attire in Josephus’ Judean Antiquities

Abstract In his recounting of the Exodus narrative of the making of the priestly vestments in Judean Antiquities 3.151-180, 184-187, Josephus provides a vivid description of the high priest’s wardrobe, including its cosmological connotations. This article shows that Josephus uses cosmological...

brill.com

Even young earth creationist websites acknowledge that Josephus held to a more Hellenistic historical cosmological view of a crystalline sky:

One other problem is the use of the word “firmament” in Genesis 1 in the King James version. That word comes straight out of the geocentric views of Ptolemy (AD 90–168) and his predecessors, albeit by a long route. Around 250 BC, Jewish scholars in Alexandria, Egypt, translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek to make the Septuagint LXX. Unfortunately, they imbibed some of the Greek cosmologies—a spherical earth surrounded by concentric crystalline spheres—by translating the Hebrew word רקיע (rāqîya‘) into steréōma (στερέωμα). This comes from the word στερεόω (stereoō)—“to make or be firm or solid.” We see this meaning carried over into Jerome’s Latin Vulgate, firmamentum. This was basically transliterated into the KJV’s “firmament”. Thus, this is an example where the science of the day influenced Bible translation, and vestiges remained for almost 2,000 years! Another example of how the Greek cosmology influenced Jewish translators comes from Josephus. He referred to the rāqîya‘ created on Day 2 as a κρύσταλλος (crystallos, i.e. crystalline sphere) around the earth (Antiquities of the Jews 1(1):30). [Note: This is not a slam on the KJV necessarily. CMI does not take any particular stand on Bible translations, but this one word is demonstrably taken from the scientific views of the time.]

Why the Universe does not revolve around the Earth · Creation.com

Creation or evolution? It makes a big difference! Over 10,000 trustworthy articles. Evidence for biblical creation.

creation.com

 

[Job 33:6]

Genesis 1:1-5 is a continuous statement (notice the use of the word "And") and represents the first day.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

It doesn't matter if you are YEC, OEC, Dispensationalist, humanistic, scientific, agnostic, atheist, or whatever - this is what the Bible says. There is no pause or any indication by the WRITER to separate the first statement in Genesis 1:1 through to Genesis 1:5 - the WRITER actually ties them all together.

Day 1 doesn't begin until verse 3. Just like every other day of creation, which begins with God speaking.

Genesis 1:1-3 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

And I agree that we see no breaks here. One in particular is a dependent clause of 2.

 

[Job 33:6]

Here is Flavius Josephus on Genesis:

30After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts, and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews.

Not only did he describe a crystalline firmament encircling the earth, but he was also a geocentrist. He didn't know what the universe was, let alone the age of it.

Josephus explains that “[Moses] set the essen in the middle of the outer vestment (µέσον … τῆς ἐφαπτίδος) in the manner of the earth, for it has precisely the middle place” (3.185). He sustains the geocentric model here, viewing the earth as the center of the universe. The geocentric model, anticipating the Ptolemaic system, was the prevalent description of the cosmos in the Greco-Roman period. Although the theory was standardized in the second century CE, as a result of the observations of the Alexandrian astronomer Claudius Ptolemy,54 its roots go back to the pre-Socratic philosophers. In the fourth century BCE, the theory is suggested in Plato’s works,55 but his pupil Aristotle develops an elaborated earth-centered cosmology. For those philosophers, the earth is motionless and lies in the middle of the cosmos. All the other planets, the moon, and the sun revolve around it.56

Wearing the Cosmos: The High Priestly Attire in Josephus’ Judean Antiquities

Abstract In his recounting of the Exodus narrative of the making of the priestly vestments in Judean Antiquities 3.151-180, 184-187, Josephus provides a vivid description of the high priest’s wardrobe, including its cosmological connotations. This article shows that Josephus uses cosmological...

brill.com

Other examples of ancient Jewish writings on a solid sky and flat earth can be found here:

Etc.

There are many. Prior to the 1500s or so, most writings of the church include some form of geocentrism. While prior to 500AD, views of a solid sky and geocentrism become more common (though the shape of the earth was contested). I'm certain regions, particularly the ancient near east, a flat earth with solid sky was a universal position prior to 600BC.

You'll never find a single rabbinic source describing a modern cosmology in ancient times. Certainly not from Josephus.

 

[Job 33:6]

That is absolutely false. Most ancient rabbis took the creation account literally. Flavius Josephus the most famous of all Jewish historians certainly believed the Earth was created approx 3000 years ago and took 6 literal days. This was first century AD. Jewish prophets and rabbis before him believed the same. That was their Cosmology view of the universe.

There's nothing completely false about it. It's widely known that Rashi viewed Genesis as including pre existing material.

Would you like to make another false statement?

Also, ancient rabbinic sources universally describe ancient cosmological in the early centuries AD. Including Flavius Josephus, as noted above. And that's a fact.

 

[Platte]

There's nothing completely false about it. It's widely known that Rashi viewed Genesis as including pre existing material.

Would you like to make another false statement?

Also, ancient rabbinic sources universally describe ancient cosmological in the early centuries AD. Including Flavius Josephus, as noted above. And that's a fact.

Many ancient Jewish believed in Creation as the chronology times it. They also believed the universe was created in 6 days. That was the common cosmology view of ancient Israel and is the view of christians today including myself. Are you disputing that ancient Israelites held that cosmological view of the universe?

 

[Platte]

Other examples of ancient Jewish writings on a solid sky and flat earth can be found here:
View attachment 358052
View attachment 358053View attachment 358054View attachment 358055View attachment 358056View attachment 358057View attachment 358058View attachment 358059View attachment 358060View attachment 358061

Etc.

There are many. Prior to the 1500s or so, most writings of the church include some form of geocentrism. While prior to 500AD, views of a solid sky and geocentrism become more common (though the shape of the earth was contested). I'm certain regions, particularly the ancient near east, a flat earth with solid sky was a universal position prior to 600BC.

You'll never find a single rabbinic source describing a modern cosmology in ancient times. Certainly not from Josephus.

Josephus held a cosmology view of the universe that included God creation and it taking 6 days. The ancient Israelites cosmology view is much more accurate that the pagan view of the Big Bang and the universe evolving over 13 billion years that you hold. You probably hold a cosmology view that includes the moon being a part of earth in the past. SMH.

 

[Platte]

Day 1 doesn't begin until verse 3. Just like every other day of creation, which begins with God speaking.

Genesis 1:1-3 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

And I agree that we see no breaks here. One in particular is a dependent clause of 2.

The beginning of creation begins in verse 1. God created the heaven and the earth. How did he create the heaven and the earth? I’ll agree with you - by the spoken word. And ends 6 days later. Everything was created in those 6 days. That is certainly what the writer was conveying and certainly what God tells us directly. There is no scripture that supports you.

 

[Job 33:6]

Josephus held a cosmology view of the universe that included God creation and it taking 6 days.

And he also held to belief in an ancient cosmology, both geocentric, and with a solid sky dome. His perception and understanding of the cosmos is simply not scientifically valid. No more was the Catholic Church in defiance of Galileo, or even flat earthers on this website today.

 

[Job 33:6]

Many ancient Jewish believed in Creation as the chronology times it. They also believed the universe was created in 6 days. That was the common cosmology view of ancient Israel and is the view of christians today including myself. Are you disputing that ancient Israelites held that cosmological view of the universe?

In the ancient near east, there is no evidence of anything scientific in nature about the ancient Israelites perception of the cosmos.

The old testament very clearly describes an ancient Israelite cosmology, much like that of which Josephus has described.

Not because God is wrong about cosmology, but because God accommodated ancient authors and audiences that lived in that age of time.

The cosmological view of the ancient Israelites includes things like a solid sky that restrains a celestial ocean, as was common in the broader ancient near east.

"Age" is not cosmology. Cosmology is about structure. And when you go back in time far enough, ex nihilo creation is also a more "modern" idea that is not found in the ancient near east, nor is it found in the Bible. There is no definite article for bereshit in our oldest of Hebrew manuscripts.

 

[Platte]

Other examples of ancient Jewish writings on a solid sky and flat earth can be found here:
View attachment 358052
View attachment 358053View attachment 358054View attachment 358055View attachment 358056View attachment 358057View attachment 358058View attachment 358059View attachment 358060View attachment 358061

Etc.

There are many. Prior to the 1500s or so, most writings of the church include some form of geocentrism. While prior to 500AD, views of a solid sky and geocentrism become more common (though the shape of the earth was contested). I'm certain regions, particularly the ancient near east, a flat earth with solid sky was a universal position prior to 600BC.

You'll never find a single rabbinic source describing a modern cosmology in ancient times. Certainly not from Josephus.

At the time of Creation people lived for hundreds of years. I do not know what type of environment allowed that but it was different from what we have now. Was there some type of dome? I don’t know. The environment was not the same as we know it today.

 

[Platte]

In the ancient near east, there is no evidence of anything scientific in nature about the ancient Israelites perception of the cosmos.

The old testament very clearly describes an ancient Israelite cosmology, much like that of which Josephus has described.

Not because God is wrong about cosmology, but because God accommodated ancient authors and audiences that lived in that age of time.

The cosmological view of the ancient Israelites includes things like a solid sky that restrains a celestial ocean, as was common in the broader ancient near east.

"Age" is not cosmology. Cosmology is about structure.

Cosmology is about age and how the universe was made also.

There is no solid sky noted in the Bible. And again what type of environment would allow for someone to live 1000 years. Not the same environment that we have today. So you are speaking on something you don’t know about.