Shouldn't Creationism be taught at public schools?

[Platte]

Good grief, there are tons of geological history to support anything but a 6,000 year old Earth.

You should go back and read Genesis 1 and 2. Read it as it is written - you will discover that Adam was created as a man...trees were created as full grown trees....animals created as fully functional. birds were flying .... fish and animals in the sea were created as functional.

Creation was not a plant a seed or born from a womb event. It was a "creation" event.

 

[Doug Brents]

I believe that I mentioned above that the text was used for prophetic purposes. But that doesn't mean that Hosea intended to speak about Jesus. He wouldn't have known who Jesus was.

Completely beside the point. Hosea wasn't the author; he was only a ghostwriter. the author knew that it was prophetic of Jesus when He inspired Hosea to write it. It does not matter what Hosea, Moses, Joshua, John, Paul, or any other writer knew or did not know when he wrote the Word that God gave him to write. What matters is what God knew and wanted to convey to us.

The point is that, Hosea had a meaning and intent in mind, and it didn't have anything to do with Jesus. It's not like Hosea was like "I don't know what I'm writing about, but some day some people 1,000 years in the future will know!"

No. Hosea would have had his own meaning in mind. Complete and full.

God didn't write Hosea. Hosea wrote Hosea. And it's ok for Hosea not to have known about Jesus and not to have intended to write about Jesus.

No, Hosea was the writer, not the author of the book "Hosea". Just as Paul is the writer of many books in the NT, but he is not the author. It is the Author's intent, not the writer's knowledge or intent that is important. Hosea may have had an intent in putting pen to paper, but it doesn't matter what his intent was. Because God is the one who told him what to write, and God is the one whose intent and knowledge is important.

In case you didn't know, Jesus is not ever named in the OT. Why? Because the OT authors didn't know who he was. He hadn't been born yet. It's that simple. Sure. And again, Hosea would have had his own original meaning in mind that wouldn't have had anything to do with Jesus.

Jesus' name being or not being in the OT is completely irrelevant. His name is not important. Who He was, and who He was going to be was important, and that is what we are told time and time again in the OT.

There is no evidence in the Bible that God corrected the ANE cosmology of Genesis. In fact, it's quite obvious that God allowed it to remain. Hence why the Bible speaks about the raqia and the waters above, sheol and things of this nature.

There is no sheol in the new testament for example. But it is common in the OT. God allowed this ancient cosmological perspective to remain.

Sheol is a Hebrew word. In Greek it is Hades. You must remember that we use Greek and Hebrew words in English quite often, but it is the meaning of the word, not the word itself that we must look for when changing from the OT to the NT.

[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

There is no evidence that ancient Israelites viewed creation in ex nihilo terms. Such ideas are not found in scripture, nor are they found in any recorded history until several centuries later. There is no ancient literature suggesting such a thing that far back in history.

You keep using that perverted translation. That is a very new change in what the Word of God says. For centuries, the understanding of Gen 1:1 was that God started with nothing and that He then created the heavens and the Earth. This change, and it is a very recent change, tries to make it sound like God stared with a preexisting world that He simply shaped. But that is not what the Word says.

I've heard your position once referred to as "narcigesis". This idea that, the truth of scripture is "hidden in there" between the lines, like Hosea wrote the text down and said "I have no idea what this is talking about, but I'm going to write it down anyway in hopes that people in the 21st century will figure it out".

That is not at all what I am saying. Sure, Hosea had an idea about what he thought he was writing, and his contemporaries had an idea about what they thought he had written. But God knew that what He told Hosea to write not only referred to Israel during the Exodus, but also would refer to Jesus shortly after His birth. It is not what the writer knew that is important, but what the author knew and intended to communicate.

As if we now understand the old testament meaning better than the old testament authors themselves, because we know about Jesus, or about science of the big bang, or something like this.

Certainly we understand what the OT writers wrote better than they understood it. Jeremiah wrote that one day God would make a New Covenant with Israel and Judah. Today we live in that New Covenant. And there are many examples of such. Sure, we don't understand all of what Abraham was feeling when He held the knife over Isaac, or how Moses felt when he stood before Pharaoh, but so what. The things we understand better today are far more important.

There is no "science" to the "big bang". Science requires that a hypothesis be testable and repeatable. There is absolutely no way for us to test that theory, or for one scientist to repeat and replicate another scientists findings through further testing. The big bang is simply some anti-Creationist's attempt to explain away the truth that God made everything from nothing.

It's not that Hosea knew Hosea's writings better than Hosea knew it himself. Rather, Mathew simply uses Hosea to prophecy or to point to Jesus. And that's ok. Mathew is not changing scripture. He's just referencing it. And Mathew likewise is not overwriting the meaning of Hosea. Hosea's meaning remains as it is. Uncorrected.

Certainly, Hosea's intent did not change, nor does the lesson we learn from what he wrote. But there are further, deeper meanings behind what he wrote, that God intended in what he wrote long before Matthew pointed that additional meaning out. The fact that it was not understood before does not negate that the meaning was already there. You continually tell us that what the original writer meant was all there was to what was written, but that is not so. Just as there are deeper meanings behind all of Jesus' parables for us to search out and find, there are deeper meanings behind the stories in the OT for us to search out and find with the help of the Holy Spirit. If He is not helping you when you read the Scriptures, you are going to miss a lot, and come to a lot of false conclusions (like your idea that the world preexisted God's making it from nothing in Gen 1:1).

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

You should go back and read Genesis 1 and 2. Read it as it is written - you will discover that Adam was created as a man...trees were created as full grown trees....animals created as fully functional. birds were flying .... fish and animals in the sea were created as functional.

Creation was not a plant a seed or born from a womb event. It was a "creation" event.

That is a matter of (your) faith not science and should not be taught in a science class.
Religious studies if you want to include other religions as well.

 

[Job 33:6]

Completely beside the point. Hosea wasn't the author; he was only a ghostwriter. the author knew that it was prophetic of Jesus when He inspired Hosea to write it. It does not matter what Hosea, Moses, Joshua, John, Paul, or any other writer knew or did not know when he wrote the Word that God gave him to write. What matters is what God knew and wanted to convey to us.

Hosea isn't the author of Hosea?

Do you have a real argument to make that is actually sensible?.

Ghostwriters are "ghosts" in the sense that no one knows who they are. That is not the case with scripture.

Romans 9:1-3 NIV
[1] I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— [2] I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. [3] For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,

Why would God tell people that he is not lying?

No, Hosea was the writer, not the author of the book "Hosea". Just as Paul is the writer of many books in the NT, but he is not the author. It is the Author's intent, not the writer's knowledge or intent that is important. Hosea may have had an intent in putting pen to paper, but it doesn't matter what his intent was. Because God is the one who told him what to write, and God is the one whose intent and knowledge is important.

No. Hosea was inspired, but indeed he was still the author of Hosea. Just as Paul, though inspired was still the author of the Pauline Epistles.

Colossians 1:1-2 NIV
[1] Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, [2] To God’s holy people in Colossae, the faithful brothers and sisters in Christ: Grace and peace to you from God our Father.

It doesn't say "Jesus Christ" an apostle of Christ Jesus, by the will of God, to God's holy people."

Jesus' name being or not being in the OT is completely irrelevant. His name is not important. Who He was, and who He was going to be was important, and that is what we are told time and time again in the OT.

It is relevant. Jesus isn't in the OT because he hadn't been born yet and none of the OT authors knew anything about him.

I'm sorry if you're having a hard time accepting this basic reality.

Sheol is a Hebrew word. In Greek it is Hades. You must remember that we use Greek and Hebrew words in English quite often, but it is the meaning of the word, not the word itself that we must look for when changing from the OT to the NT.

No, in Greek it is not Hades. We've covered this topic before.

You keep using that perverted translation. That is a very new change in what the Word of God says. For centuries, the understanding of Gen 1:1 was that God started with nothing and that He then created the heavens and the Earth. This change, and it is a very recent change, tries to make it sound like God stared with a preexisting world that He simply shaped. But that is not what the Word says.

If you can't accept the Bible, that's your own fault.

That is not at all what I am saying. Sure, Hosea had an idea about what he thought he was writing, and his contemporaries had an idea about what they thought he had written. But God knew that what He told Hosea to write not only referred to Israel during the Exodus, but also would refer to Jesus shortly after His birth. It is not what the writer knew that is important, but what the author knew and intended to communicate.

No. Hosea was not subconsciously writing about Jesus while simultaneously not knowing it.

Again, it's not like Hosea is sitting there writing on a piece of paper thinking "wow! I have no idea what's I'm writing about!"

Or, his Israelite audience comes over:
"Hosea, can you explain what you mean with this passage you wrote?"

And Hosea responds:
"Sorry guys! I don't actually know what I am writing about! But in the future, people will know!"

Certainly we understand what the OT writers wrote better than they understood it. Jeremiah wrote that one day God would make a New Covenant with Israel and Judah. Today we live in that New Covenant. And there are many examples of such. Sure, we don't understand all of what Abraham was feeling when He held the knife over Isaac, or how Moses felt when he stood before Pharaoh, but so what. The things we understand better today are far more important.

Jeremiah did not write about things that he did not know about. Yes, we know about Jesus. But again, Jeremiah never mentioned Jesus.

I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time with this.

Certainly, Hosea's intent did not change, nor does the lesson we learn from what he wrote. But there are further, deeper meanings behind what he wrote, that God intended in what he wrote long before Matthew pointed that additional meaning out.

No. Hosea's writings mean what they mean. There is no deeper hidden meaning, hidden between the pages, that he himself did not know about.

We understand Mathews writings, and they have deeper meaning, and they reference Hosea. But it is not Hosea's writings that tell us about Jesus.

Again, Jesus isn't in the OT.

The fact that it was not understood before does not negate that the meaning was already there. You continually tell us that what the original writer meant was all there was to what was written, but that is not so. Just as there are deeper meanings behind all of Jesus' parables for us to search out and find, there are deeper meanings behind the stories in the OT for us to search out and find with the help of the Holy Spirit. If He is not helping you when you read the Scriptures, you are going to miss a lot, and come to a lot of false conclusions (like your idea that the world preexisted God's making it from nothing in Gen 1:1).

No, the meaning was not already there. Again, it's not like Hosea didn't understand what he was writing about.

When Jesus wrote down his parables, Jesus knew the deeper meaning that he was writing about.

Hosea never had a deeper meaning. Again, he didn't know who Jesus was.

 

[Doug Brents]

Hosea isn't the author of Hosea?

Do you have a real argument to make that is actually sensible?

Hosea wrote the book of Hosea, but he was not the "author". He was not the originator of the material he wrote down. 2 Tim 3:16-17 tells us that all Scripture was authored by God, not by man.

It is relevant. Jesus isn't in the OT because he hadn't been born yet and none of the OT authors knew anything about him.

I'm sorry if you're having a hard time accepting this basic reality.

No, that is not a "basic reality". Jesus existed before the world was created, and He is all over the pages of the OT, even if His name is not recorded there. The identifiers that point to Him, and prophesy His coming, are there from Gen 3 all the way through the OT.

No, in Greek it is not Hades. We've covered this topic before.

Nope, this has never come up before between us. And yes, the Greek for the place of the dead is Hades, just as the Hebrew for the place of the dead is Sheol.

No. Hosea was not subconsciously writing about Jesus while simultaneously not knowing it.

Again, it's not like Hosea is sitting there writing on a piece of paper thinking "wow! I have no idea what's I'm writing about!"

Even the Angels did not understand much of what the OT prophets wrote, and they knew a lot more than the human writers that God inspired (1 Pet 1:10-12).

 

[Platte]

That is a matter of (your) faith not science and should not be taught in a science class.
Religious studies if you want to include other religions as well.

I agree it should not be taught in science class. It should be taught in History class.

Our account of creation comes from the historical records of the jewish people - its not made up imagination from a person or an opinion of science.

 

[Job 33:6]

Hosea wrote the book of Hosea, but he was not the "author". He was not the originator of the material he wrote down. 2 Tim 3:16-17 tells us that all Scripture was authored by God, not by man.

No, 2 Timothy 3 does not say that all scripture was authored by God. I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

This verse does not say that God "authored" all Scripture in the modern sense of authorship. Instead, it states that Scripture is "God-breathed" (Greek: theopneustos), implying that God is the ultimate source or inspiration behind the writings. The human authors were divinely guided in their work, but their individual styles and contexts are still evident in the text.

The emphasis of the passage is on Scripture's usefulness for guiding believers in faith and equipping them for good works, not on detailing how the process of divine inspiration worked.

No, that is not a "basic reality". Jesus existed before the world was created, and He is all over the pages of the OT, even if His name is not recorded there. The identifiers that point to Him, and prophesy His coming, are there from Gen 3 all the way through the OT.

No, Jesus is not in the OT. Sorry if you're having a hard time with this.

When you're ready to be honest about the Bible, I'll be here.

There is a reason that the name of Jesus is never mentioned in the OT. And it's simple, the old testament authors didn't know anything about him. He hadn't been born yet.

This isn't controversial. It's just a basic observation of scripture.

Nope, this has never come up before between us. And yes, the Greek for the place of the dead is Hades, just as the Hebrew for the place of the dead is Sheol.

No, they're not the same. For example, both good and bad people go to sheol. Hades on the other hand, involves forms of judgement.

Even the Angels did not understand much of what the OT prophets wrote, and they knew a lot more than the human writers that God inspired (1 Pet 1:10-12).

The angels didn't write anything in the Bible.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I agree it should not be taught in science class. It should be taught in History class.

Our account of creation comes from the historical records of the jewish people - its not made up imagination from a person or an opinion of science.

History class? That is certainly better than science class. We all know that "history" can have many versions.

 

[Doug Brents]

No, 2 Timothy 3 does not say that all scripture was authored by God. I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

This verse does not say that God "authored" all Scripture in the modern sense of authorship. Instead, it states that Scripture is "God-breathed" (Greek: theopneustos), implying that God is the ultimate source or inspiration behind the writings. The human authors were divinely guided in their work, but their individual styles and contexts are still evident in the text.

Certainly their personal styles and contexts are evident in the text. But the thoughts did not come from them. They were God's thoughts given to these men who put pen to paper to put God's thoughts down so that others could read God's thoughts years later.

The emphasis of the passage is on Scripture's usefulness for guiding believers in faith and equipping them for good works, not on detailing how the process of divine inspiration worked.

That is the primary emphasis, but not the only lesson that can be gained from the passage. It is because all Scripture is inspired (authored) by God that it is profitable for doctrine, proof, etc. If God were not the ultimate author of ALL Scripture, then there would be errors all through the Bible, and there would be no consistent agreement within each Book, let alone between all of the books.

No, Jesus is not in the OT. Sorry if you're having a hard time with this.

Yes, Jesus is all through the OT.
Genesis 3:15: Jesus is the Seed of the woman who bruised the serpent's head
Exodus 12:21: Jesus was the Passover Lamb sacrificed for us
Leviticus 16:21-22: Jesus was the scapegoat who bore our sins on the cross
Numbers 21:8: Jesus was lifted up on a pole like the bronze serpent
Deuteronomy 18:15: Jesus was the prophet like Moses who God raised up
Isaiah 7:14: A prophecy about Jesus' unique birth
Isaiah 61:1: A prophecy about Jesus' earthly ministry
Psalm 22: A prophecy about the way Jesus would die
Jeremiah: Jesus is the weeping Messiah
Lamentations: Jesus is the one who assumes the wrath of God on our behalf
Ezekiel: Jesus is the Son of Man
There are too many mentions of Jesus to list them all. No, none of them mention Him by name, but that doesn't mean that these are not direct references to Him in the OT.

There is a reason that the name of Jesus is never mentioned in the OT.

Of course

And it's simple, the old testament authors didn't know anything about him. He hadn't been born yet.

Didn't know anything about Him?????? They knew almost everything about Him, except when He would come.

But it doesn't take mentioning his name to be a direct reference to Him.

No, they're not the same. For example, both good and bad people go to sheol. Hades on the other hand, involves forms of judgement.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to denote the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to “the place of the dead.” Sheol/hades is divided into a place of blessing (where Lazarus was in Luke 16) and a place of torment (where the rich man was in Luke 16). Sheol also seems to be a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection. The souls of the righteous, at death, go directly into the presence of God—the part of sheol called “heaven,” “paradise,” or “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).

The Greek word gehenna is used in the New Testament for “hell” (see Matthew 5:29; 23:33). The word is derived from the Hebrew word ge-hinnom, which designated a valley south of Jerusalem—a cursed place that had been the site of human sacrifice (2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6). Jesus referenced Gehenna as a symbol of the place of judgment after death, alluding to prophecies in Jeremiah 19:6 and Isaiah 30:33.

The lake of fire, mentioned only in Revelation 19:20 and 20:10, 14-15, is the final hell, the place of eternal punishment for all unrepentant rebels, both angelic and human (Matthew 25:41). It is described as a place of burning sulfur, and those in it experience eternal, unspeakable agony of an unrelenting nature (Luke 16:24; Mark 9:45-46). Those in hades/sheol who have rejected Christ will have the lake of fire as their final destination.
I borrowed this from gotquestions.org.

The angels didn't write anything in the Bible.

No, the angels did not write it. But they longed to look into the meaning of what the Prophets prophesied. But it was hidden from them, just as it was hidden from the Prophets themselves.

 

[Job 33:6]

Certainly their personal styles and contexts are evident in the text. But the thoughts did not come from them. They were God's thoughts given to these men who put pen to paper to put God's thoughts down so that others could read God's thoughts years later.

The old testament authors are the authors. 2 Timothy says nothing about God being the author of scripture.

That is the primary emphasis, but not the only lesson that can be gained from the passage. It is because all Scripture is inspired (authored) by God that it is profitable for doctrine, proof, etc. If God were not the ultimate author of ALL Scripture, then there would be errors all through the Bible, and there would be no consistent agreement within each Book, let alone between all of the books.

I'm sorry but "inspired" is not equivalent to authorship. You're just making stuff up about scripture.

And I'm sorry if you didn't know this, but there are errors in the Bible.

Yes, Jesus is all through the OT.
Genesis 3:15: Jesus is the Seed of the woman who bruised the serpent's head

Exodus 12:21: Jesus was the Passover Lamb sacrificed for us
Leviticus 16:21-22: Jesus was the scapegoat who bore our sins on the cross
Numbers 21:8: Jesus was lifted up on a pole like the bronze serpent
Deuteronomy 18:15: Jesus was the prophet like Moses who God raised up
Isaiah 7:14: A prophecy about Jesus' unique birth
Isaiah 61:1: A prophecy about Jesus' earthly ministry
Psalm 22: A prophecy about the way Jesus would die
Jeremiah: Jesus is the weeping Messiah
Lamentations: Jesus is the one who assumes the wrath of God on our behalf
Ezekiel: Jesus is the Son of Man
There are too many mentions of Jesus to list them all. No, none of them mention Him by name, but that doesn't mean that these are not direct references to Him in the OT.

None of these passages say anything about Jesus. I'm sorry that you're confused about this.

A prophecy about Jesus, as interpreted by NT authors is not the same thing as the OT scriptures originally being understood as being about Jesus.

Of course

Didn't know anything about Him?????? They knew almost everything about Him, except when He would come.

Nope. The OT authors didn't know who Jesus was. Hence why they never mentioned him. Do you see Jesus' name mentioned anywhere in the OT? No? That's because they didn't know who Jesus is.

But it doesn't take mentioning his name to be a direct reference to Him.

Not mentioning his name is a direct result of them not knowing who he was.

You're trying to force Jesus into the OT, but I'm sorry, he's not in the OT. He wasn't born yet.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to denote the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to “the place of the dead.” Sheol/hades is divided into a place of blessing (where Lazarus was in Luke 16) and a place of torment (where the rich man was in Luke 16). Sheol also seems to be a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection. The souls of the righteous, at death, go directly into the presence of God—the part of sheol called “heaven,” “paradise,” or “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).

No? There is no heaven in sheol. You're having a major anachronism malfunction here. Making an argument about sheol, using new testament passages that never mention sheol.

"Gotquestions" is also not a reliable source.

Try an actual scholar of old testament:

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No, the angels did not write it. But they longed to look into the meaning of what the Prophets prophesied. But it was hidden from them, just as it was hidden from the Prophets themselves.

This isn't relevant to the topic. The angels didn't author any scripture.

 

[Job 33:6]

The old testament authors are the authors. 2 Timothy says nothing about God being the author of scripture.




I'm sorry but "inspired" is not equivalent to authorship. You're just making stuff up about scripture.

And I'm sorry if you didn't know this, but there are errors in the Bible.





None of these passages say anything about Jesus. I'm sorry that you're confused about this.



Nope. The OT authors didn't know who Jesus was. Hence why they never mentioned him. Do you see Jesus' name mentioned anywhere in the OT? No? That's because they didn't know who Jesus is.



Not mentioning his name is a direct result of them not knowing who he was.

You're trying to force Jesus into the OT, but I'm sorry, he's not in the OT. He wasn't born yet.



No? There is no heaven in sheol. You're having a major anachronism malfunction here. Making an argument about sheol, using new testament passages that never mention sheol.

This isn't relevant to the topic. The angels didn't author any scripture.

Examples of errors:
1 Samuel 13:1 NIV
[1] Saul was thirty years old when he became king, and he reigned over Israel forty- two years.

1 Samuel 13:1 KJV
[1] Saul reigned one year; and when he had reigned two years over Israel,

1 Samuel 13:1 RSV
[1] Saul was … years old when he began to reign; and he reigned … and two years over Israel.

Some verses like this one, say completely different things because the original Hebrew has errors in it.

John 5:3, 5 NIV
[3] Here a great number of disabled people used to lie—the blind, the lame, the paralyzed.
[5] One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years.

John 5:4 is missing in a handful of translations, because it is missing from the oldest manuscripts that we have.

As a couple of examples.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Certainly their personal styles and contexts are evident in the text. But the thoughts did not come from them. They were God's thoughts given to these men who put pen to paper to put God's thoughts down so that others could read God's thoughts years later.

That does not mean it is all literal historical truth. There is great value, meaning and beauty in poetic, metaphoric, figurative language.

 

[Job 33:6]

Strong's Hebrew: 3629. כְּלָיוֹת (kilyah) -- Kidney(s)

Here is another thing to consider. Ancient Israelites viewed kidneys as the seat of our emotions:

Proverbs 23:16 LEB
[16] And my insides will rejoice when your lips speak what is upright.

Proverbs 23:16 NASB2020
[16] And my innermost being will rejoice When your lips speak what is right.

Proverbs 23:16 NET
[16] my soul will rejoice when your lips speak what is right.

Proverbs 23:16 AMP
[16] Yes, my heart will rejoice When your lips speak right things.

Heart, soul, innermost being etc.

In fact, the Hebrew term here, kilyah, is "kidneys". And this term is used many times throughout the old testament.

Are we to conclude that there is something special about our kidneys because God keeps referring to them over and over and over again in scripture? Meanwhile God never references the heart or brain.

Why? It's just the culture of the original authors. And so we translate the term into "heart" or "mind" to help us convey it in our own modern culture.

God allowed the ancient authors to remain in their own ancient culture, when they wrote down scripture. And sometimes their ancient cultural context comes out in the text as we read.

It's not like God is the direct author and is trying to teach us something special about kidneys. No. The authors are the ancient Israelites, and they are going to use their own culture and terminology and ideas to convey the truths that God has inspired them to convey.

 

[Semper-Fi]

God never references the heart or brain.

The bible says a lot about the heart.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things ,
and desperately wicked: who can know it? and many more.

the heart | YouVersion Search | The Bible App

Search results for: the heart

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Romans 8:27 (KJV)
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind
of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints
according to the will of God.

Ezekiel 11:19 Ezekiel 18:31 Ezekiel 36:26
19And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit
within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh,
and will give them an heart of flesh: 20that they may walk
in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them:
and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

21But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their
detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense
their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders,
adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

The Bible calls David a man after God’s own heart.
-
The bible supplies info on our brain/mind that [science lacks].

Job 32 and verse 8. “But there is a spirit in man:"
There is a nonphysical component called a spirit in man.
Given sometime in the womb Ecclesiastes 11:5 ,Job 31:15

It endows humans with the ability to understand, reason, plan,
and create, and fellowship with God. Often used to refer to a
person's mind, intelligence, or attitude. This separates us from animals!
Man/science cannot see/feel this nonphysical component in man.

"and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.”
According to the Bible, this spirit connects people with God.
God is building His character within man, if man will allow it.

Mankind has 5 senses where we receive information from.

“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man,”
this is that human spirit. The next sentence “[E]ven so the things of God
knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.” Or the Holy Spirit of God.

Here are the two spirits: the spirit of man and the Spirit of God.
We have to go to God in a humble attitude and ask for Gods Holy
Spirit so that we can understand the things/knowledge of God.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord,
Searching all the innermost parts of his being.

"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them,
because they are spiritually appraised. 1 Corinthians 2:14

Whom shall he teach knowledge? Isaiah 28:9 Proverbs 3:5

1 Corinthians 1:27 (KJV) but God hath chosen the foolish things
of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak
things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

God tries the hearts and minds, not the kidneys.

P.S.
How could Job know about "the spirit in man" without divine knowledge?
How could Job know about Angeles shouting for joy at creation?
This list could go on and on, and has nothing to do with pagan myths.

 

[Job 33:6]

@Semper-Fi

Strong's Hebrew: 3629. כְּלָיוֹת (kilyah) -- Kidney(s)

Here is another thing to consider. Ancient Israelites viewed kidneys as the seat of our emotions:

Proverbs 23:16 LEB
[16] And my insides will rejoice when your lips speak what is upright.

Proverbs 23:16 NASB2020
[16] And my innermost being will rejoice When your lips speak what is right.

Proverbs 23:16 NET
[16] my soul will rejoice when your lips speak what is right.

Proverbs 23:16 AMP
[16] Yes, my heart will rejoice When your lips speak right things.

Heart, soul, innermost being etc.

In fact, the Hebrew term here, kilyah, is "kidneys". And this term is used many times throughout the old testament.

Are we to conclude that there is something special about our kidneys because God keeps referring to them over and over and over again in scripture? Meanwhile God never references the heart or brain.

Why? It's just the culture of the original authors. And so we translate the term into "heart" or "mind" to help us convey it in our own modern culture.

God allowed the ancient authors to remain in their own ancient culture, when they wrote down scripture. And sometimes their ancient cultural context comes out in the text as we read.

It's not like God is the direct author and is trying to teach us something special about kidneys. No. The authors are the ancient Israelites, and they are going to use their own culture and terminology and ideas to convey the truths that God has inspired them to convey.

Thanks for this.

I'd simply adjust to make a few notes.

1. The kidneys are still referenced several times throughout scripture.

2. The brain is also still excluded from this discussion, as it's not clear that ancient Israelites knew what the purpose of the brain even was.

3. We're talking about the OT, not the NT.

Here's another one, the intestines as the seat of ones emotions:

Strong's Hebrew: 4578. מְעֵי (meeh) -- Belly, inward parts, bowels, womb

Usage: The Hebrew word "meeh" primarily refers to the internal organs of the body, often translated as "belly" or "inward parts." It can denote the physical organs, such as the stomach or intestines, and is also used metaphorically to describe the seat of emotions and affections. In some contexts, it refers to the womb, emphasizing the idea of deep-seated feelings or the innermost being.

Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Hebrew culture, the "inward parts" or "bowels" were considered the center of emotions and compassion, much like the heart is viewed in modern Western thought. This reflects a holistic understanding of human nature, where physical and emotional aspects are interconnected. The term "meeh" is used in various contexts, from describing physical hunger to expressing deep emotional distress or compassion.

Isaiah 16:11
Isaiah 16:11 NIV
[11] My heart laments for Moab like a harp, my inmost being for Kir Hareseth.

Isaiah 63:15
Isaiah 63:15 NIV
[15] Look down from heaven and see, from your lofty throne, holy and glorious. Where are your zeal and your might? Your tenderness and compassion are withheld from us.

Jeremiah 31:20
Jeremiah 31:20 NIV
[20] Is not Ephraim my dear son, the child in whom I delight? Though I often speak against him, I still remember him. Therefore my heart yearns for him; I have great compassion for him,” declares the Lord.

Jeremiah 4:19
Jeremiah 4:19 NIV
[19] Oh, my anguish, my anguish! I writhe in pain. Oh, the agony of my heart! My heart pounds within me, I cannot keep silent. For I have heard the sound of the trumpet; I have heard the battle cry.

Lamentations 1:20
Lamentations 1:20 NIV
[20] “See, Lord, how distressed I am! I am in torment within, and in my heart I am disturbed, for I have been most rebellious. Outside, the sword bereaves; inside, there is only death.

Lamentations 2:11
Lamentations 2:11 NIV
[11] My eyes fail from weeping, I am in torment within; my heart is poured out on the ground because my people are destroyed, because children and infants faint in the streets of the city.

Here we have reference to the intestines or entrails. But the point is that, God isn't trying to teach us something about our digestive system. Rather it's just an ancient Israelite cultural reference. Because that's who has authored the Bible. Ancient Israelites.

If God were the sole author of scripture, without the Bible having any influence from ancient Israelite culture at all, then we wouldn't have verses like these in the old testament.

And so people shouldn't be surprised to find other ancient Israelite references in the Bible either. Such as, ancient Israelite cosmology.

 

[Simonides]

Maybe we should figure out which planet we are actually living on before we start pushing our views of who created it.

 

[Doug Brents]

The old testament authors are the authors. 2 Timothy says nothing about God being the author of scripture.

It is not wise to give man the credit for God's work.

I'm sorry but "inspired" is not equivalent to authorship. You're just making stuff up about scripture.

God is the source of the Scriptures, not man. God put His words into the writer's minds and caused them to write what He wanted them to write. God is the author. The men did nothing more than write what God put in their minds to write. That makes God the author and the men the writer.

And I'm sorry if you didn't know this, but there are errors in the Bible.

There is not a single error, contradiction, or mistake in the entirety of the 66 books of the Bible in the original language. There may appear to be contradictions in the translations, but that is a factor of human misunderstanding, not God's error.

None of these passages say anything about Jesus. I'm sorry that you're confused about this.

A prophecy about Jesus, as interpreted by NT authors is not the same thing as the OT scriptures originally being understood as being about Jesus.

Every one of those passages foretells of the coming Messiah. Jesus is the Messiah. Every one of those passages is about Jesus. You find frequently in prophecy that the meaning of the prophecy is not really understood until after it is fulfilled. Just because no one under the OT understood the prophecy doesn't mean that it was not about Jesus.

Nope. The OT authors didn't know who Jesus was. Hence why they never mentioned him. Do you see Jesus' name mentioned anywhere in the OT? No? That's because they didn't know who Jesus is.

Again, it doesn't take knowing or speaking (writing) His name to know Him or about Him.

Not mentioning his name is a direct result of them not knowing who he was.

You're trying to force Jesus into the OT, but I'm sorry, he's not in the OT. He wasn't born yet.

Of course He wasn't born yet, but that doesn't mean that God didn't tell us that He was coming and what to look for in Him when He came.

No? There is no heaven in sheol. You're having a major anachronism malfunction here. Making an argument about sheol, using new testament passages that never mention sheol.

Correct, there is no heaven in Sheol. But there is a division between the area of torment and the area of "Abraham's Bosom" as portrayed in Jesus' parable.

"Gotquestions" is also not a reliable source.

In a lot of cases you are correct. But they were right on the nose with this one.

This isn't relevant to the topic. The angels didn't author any scripture.

No, they didn't. The point is that even they (the Angels of God, purely spiritual beings that are greater, stronger, wiser, and closer to God than is man) didn't understand what the Prophets were writing, and they wanted to know but could not find out. God had hidden the meaning of what the Prophets were writing so that it could not be understood until it was fulfilled.

 

[Doug Brents]

That does not mean it is all literal historical truth. There is great value, meaning and beauty in poetic, metaphoric, figurative language.

Certainly there is great value in poetic, metaphoric, and figurative language. And there is much literal historic truth found in God's Word, even if He couches it in poetic, metaphoric, and figurative language. God's Word is TRUTH, and there is no other truth out there.

 

[Job 33:6]

It is not wise to give man the credit for God's work.

It's not wise to ignore the inspired authors of the Bible, either.

Really the Bible should be viewed more as being co-authored by the prophets. Rather than solely by God. It's not like the Bible just fell out of the sky. The Hebrew or Greek cultures of the prophets/apostles are present within the text, and no honest Christian can ignore this.

 

[Job 33:6]

@Semper-Fi

Thanks for this.

I'd simply adjust to make a few notes.

1. The kidneys are still referenced several times throughout scripture.

2. The brain is also still excluded from this discussion, as it's not clear that ancient Israelites knew what the purpose of the brain even was.

3. We're talking about the OT, not the NT.

Here's another one, the intestines as the seat of ones emotions:

Strong's Hebrew: 4578. מְעֵי (meeh) -- Belly, inward parts, bowels, womb

Usage: The Hebrew word "meeh" primarily refers to the internal organs of the body, often translated as "belly" or "inward parts." It can denote the physical organs, such as the stomach or intestines, and is also used metaphorically to describe the seat of emotions and affections. In some contexts, it refers to the womb, emphasizing the idea of deep-seated feelings or the innermost being.

Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Hebrew culture, the "inward parts" or "bowels" were considered the center of emotions and compassion, much like the heart is viewed in modern Western thought. This reflects a holistic understanding of human nature, where physical and emotional aspects are interconnected. The term "meeh" is used in various contexts, from describing physical hunger to expressing deep emotional distress or compassion.

Isaiah 16:11
Isaiah 16:11 NIV
[11] My heart laments for Moab like a harp, my inmost being for Kir Hareseth.

Isaiah 63:15
Isaiah 63:15 NIV
[15] Look down from heaven and see, from your lofty throne, holy and glorious. Where are your zeal and your might? Your tenderness and compassion are withheld from us.

Jeremiah 31:20
Jeremiah 31:20 NIV
[20] Is not Ephraim my dear son, the child in whom I delight? Though I often speak against him, I still remember him. Therefore my heart yearns for him; I have great compassion for him,” declares the Lord.

Jeremiah 4:19
Jeremiah 4:19 NIV
[19] Oh, my anguish, my anguish! I writhe in pain. Oh, the agony of my heart! My heart pounds within me, I cannot keep silent. For I have heard the sound of the trumpet; I have heard the battle cry.

Lamentations 1:20
Lamentations 1:20 NIV
[20] “See, Lord, how distressed I am! I am in torment within, and in my heart I am disturbed, for I have been most rebellious. Outside, the sword bereaves; inside, there is only death.

Lamentations 2:11
Lamentations 2:11 NIV
[11] My eyes fail from weeping, I am in torment within; my heart is poured out on the ground because my people are destroyed, because children and infants faint in the streets of the city.

Here we have reference to the intestines or entrails. But the point is that, God isn't trying to teach us something about our digestive system. Rather it's just an ancient Israelite cultural reference. Because that's who has authored the Bible. Ancient Israelites.

If God were the sole author of scripture, without the Bible having any influence from ancient Israelite culture at all, then we wouldn't have verses like these in the old testament.

And so people shouldn't be surprised to find other ancient Israelite references in the Bible either. Such as, ancient Israelite cosmology.

@Doug Brents do you have any comment on this, at least?

Is it God focusing on the kidneys and intestines in the old testament?

Strong's Hebrew: 3629. כְּלָיוֹת (kilyah) -- Kidney(s)

Here is another thing to consider. Ancient Israelites viewed kidneys as the seat of our emotions:

Proverbs 23:16 LEB
[16] And my insides will rejoice when your lips speak what is upright.

Proverbs 23:16 NASB2020
[16] And my innermost being will rejoice When your lips speak what is right.

Proverbs 23:16 NET
[16] my soul will rejoice when your lips speak what is right.

Proverbs 23:16 AMP
[16] Yes, my heart will rejoice When your lips speak right things.

Heart, soul, innermost being etc.

In fact, the Hebrew term here, kilyah, is "kidneys". And this term is used many times throughout the old testament.

1. The kidneys are still referenced several times throughout scripture.

2. The brain is also still excluded from this discussion, as it's not clear that ancient Israelites knew what the purpose of the brain even was.

3. We're talking about the OT, not the NT.

Here's another one, the intestines as the seat of ones emotions:

Strong's Hebrew: 4578. מְעֵי (meeh) -- Belly, inward parts, bowels, womb

Usage: The Hebrew word "meeh" primarily refers to the internal organs of the body, often translated as "belly" or "inward parts." It can denote the physical organs, such as the stomach or intestines, and is also used metaphorically to describe the seat of emotions and affections. In some contexts, it refers to the womb, emphasizing the idea of deep-seated feelings or the innermost being.

Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Hebrew culture, the "inward parts" or "bowels" were considered the center of emotions and compassion, much like the heart is viewed in modern Western thought. This reflects a holistic understanding of human nature, where physical and emotional aspects are interconnected. The term "meeh" is used in various contexts, from describing physical hunger to expressing deep emotional distress or compassion.

Isaiah 16:11 NIV
[11] My heart laments for Moab like a harp, my inmost being for Kir Hareseth.

Isaiah 63:15 NIV
[15] Look down from heaven and see, from your lofty throne, holy and glorious. Where are your zeal and your might? Your tenderness and compassion are withheld from us.

Jeremiah 31:20 NIV
[20] Is not Ephraim my dear son, the child in whom I delight? Though I often speak against him, I still remember him. Therefore my heart yearns for him; I have great compassion for him,” declares the Lord.

Jeremiah 4:19 NIV
[19] Oh, my anguish, my anguish! I writhe in pain. Oh, the agony of my heart! My heart pounds within me, I cannot keep silent. For I have heard the sound of the trumpet; I have heard the battle cry.

Lamentations 1:20
Lamentations 1:20 NIV
[20] “See, Lord, how distressed I am! I am in torment within, and in my heart I am disturbed, for I have been most rebellious. Outside, the sword bereaves; inside, there is only death.

Lamentations 2:11 NIV
[11] My eyes fail from weeping, I am in torment within; my heart is poured out on the ground because my people are destroyed, because children and infants faint in the streets of the city.

Here we have reference to the intestines or entrails. But the point is that, God isn't trying to teach us something about our digestive system. Rather it's just an ancient Israelite cultural reference. Because that's who has authored the Bible. Ancient Israelites.

If God were the sole author of scripture, without the Bible having any influence from ancient Israelite culture at all, then we wouldn't have verses like these in the old testament.

And so people shouldn't be surprised to find other ancient Israelite references in the Bible either. Such as, ancient Israelite cosmology.