Shouldn't Creationism be taught at public schools?

[Akita Suggagaki]

Maybe we should figure out which planet we are actually living on before we start pushing our views of who created it.
View attachment 358000

it is easily seen that it is not the same angle.
2012 Has Mexico in the center. 2015 has Africa in the center.
That will naturally change perspective and apparent size of continents.

 

[Simonides]

it is easily seen that it is not the same angle.
2012 Has Mexico in the center. 2015 has Africa in the center.
That will naturally change perspective and apparent size of continents.

The angle is irrelevant. These are composite images.

Do we have a real photo of the entire Planet Earth? Is NASA concerned of its shape?

This is not a topic I'm particularly interested in, yet it is still very strange, and telling. I think everything is tied in together. There could be some common denominator connecting all the bizarre events, and objects mentioned on this website with our space exploration controversy. At some...

www.stolenhistory.org

 

[Doug Brents]

It's not wise to ignore the inspired authors of the Bible, either.

I don't ignore the Author (singular) of all Scripture.

Really the Bible should be viewed more as being co-authored by the prophets. Rather than solely by God. It's not like the Bible just fell out of the sky. The Hebrew or Greek cultures of the prophets/apostles are present within the text, and no honest Christian can ignore this.

No, the Bible was not co-authored by the Apostles and the Prophets. ROTFL They brought nothing to the table here. That is like saying that the car coauthored the owner's manual. That is exactly what the Bible is: the owner's manual for life authored by the Creator of life.

 

[Doug Brents]

@Doug Brents do you have any comment on this, at least?

Here we have reference to the intestines or entrails. But the point is that, God isn't trying to teach us something about our digestive system. Rather it's just an ancient Israelite cultural reference. Because that's who has authored the Bible. Ancient Israelites.

If God were the sole author of scripture, without the Bible having any influence from ancient Israelite culture at all, then we wouldn't have verses like these in the old testament.

And so people shouldn't be surprised to find other ancient Israelite references in the Bible either. Such as, ancient Israelite cosmology.

ROTFL, you think so little of God that you don't think He can author text in terms that the immediate audience will understand, and that will be clearly understood by later, more "knowledgeable" people groups, even though it is written in what they would call "bad science"?

 

[Job 33:6]

ROTFL, you think so little of God that you don't think He can author text in terms that the immediate audience will understand, and that will be clearly understood by later, more "knowledgeable" people groups, even though it is written in what they would call "bad science"?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

In ancient Israelite culture, the intestines and kidneys were referred to as the seat of ones emotions.

We see this throughout the old testament.

So I'm curious, as someone who views scripture as essentially falling out of the sky as God's word, what do you do with this? Is God trying to teach us something about our digestive system?

Or do you think it's reasonable for God to accommodate the ancient audience by allowing their cultural perspectives to be captured in the text? In which case, on what bases would this include something like physiology and anatomy, yet exclude cosmology?

Both anatomy and cosmology shows that God’s revelation often uses accessible language and imagery to communicate eternal truths. The Bible’s purpose isn’t to teach cosmology or anatomy but to convey theological meaning within the cultural and intellectual framework of its time.

Both kidneys and cosmology serve as culturally embedded, metaphorical tools to communicate theological truths. Both reflect a divine accommodation to human understanding, using the familiar to communicate the profound.

So if you want to go the route of accepting ancient Israelite anatomy, by denying ancient Israelite cosmology, why?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The angle is irrelevant. These are composite images.

Do we have a real photo of the entire Planet Earth? Is NASA concerned of its shape?

This is not a topic I'm particularly interested in, yet it is still very strange, and telling. I think everything is tied in together. There could be some common denominator connecting all the bizarre events, and objects mentioned on this website with our space exploration controversy. At some...

www.stolenhistory.org

Let us know when you are ready to be rational.

 

[Doug Brents]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

In ancient Israelite culture, the intestines and kidneys were referred to as the seat of ones emotions.

We see this throughout the old testament.

So I'm curious, as someone who views scripture as essentially falling out of the sky as God's word, what do you do with this? Is God trying to teach us something about our digestive system?

Or do you think it's reasonable for God to accommodate the ancient audience by allowing their cultural perspectives to be captured in the text? In which case, on what bases would this include something like physiology and anatomy, yet exclude cosmology?

Both anatomy and cosmology shows that God’s revelation often uses accessible language and imagery to communicate eternal truths. The Bible’s purpose isn’t to teach cosmology or anatomy but to convey theological meaning within the cultural and intellectual framework of its time.

Both kidneys and cosmology serve as culturally embedded, metaphorical tools to communicate theological truths. Both reflect a divine accommodation to human understanding, using the familiar to communicate the profound.

So if you want to go the route of accepting ancient Israelite anatomy, by denying ancient Israelite cosmology, why?

You are crediting the ancient Israelites with similar cosmology as their neighbors, but their cosmology was completely different than any of the surrounding nations. They believed in a single God, who was not associated with any of the planets or stars (as were the Greek and Roman gods), or with the seasons, weather, or physical objects (as many of the even more ancient culture's deities were), but He had made all of those things out of nothing. They believed that the planets and stars were hung by God, not that they were gods.

They may have had similar biological understanding as their neighbors (you feel shifting in your gut when you have certain emotions, so they portrayed those emotions as being associated with the gut), but that symbology is still prevalent in our language, especially poetry, even today. That doesn't mean that we believe that emotions are housed there. So it is entirely probable that even they did not believe that the emotions were housed in the gut, just that that imagery was common in their language.

You want to start Creation in Gen 1:3, and discount the creation that is stated to have begun in Gen 1:1. And now you are trying to use figurative language associated with the gut to explain away what you don't like about the Creation story. It won't work. God made everything from nothing, and He did it in just 6 physical days of evening to morning. There is no other way of looking at what God told us in the first two chapters of Genesis. Look over at the restating of the Creation in Gen 2:4. "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven."
He didn't start with an already existing canvas. He started with nothing and made the heavens and Earth in a single day, then proceeded over the next few days to form and populate the Earth.

 

[Doug Brents]

it is easily seen that it is not the same angle.
2012 Has Mexico in the center. 2015 has Africa in the center.
That will naturally change perspective and apparent size of continents.

That is actually South America at the center in 2015, but your point is correct. size changes because perspective changes because the center of the image is different.

 

[Simonides]

Let us know when you are ready to be rational.

I sent you a link with multiple images. A video of a NASA employee admitting that they have no actual photos of the entire earth from space. He would know, as he is the computer geek who assembled the composites.

Don't even go there with your condescending "let's be rational nonsense."

Your mind is already made up, there is no amount of evidence that will ever convince you.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Sad.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

That is actually South America at the center in 2015, but your point is correct. size changes because perspective changes because the center of the image is different.

Right.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I sent you a link with multiple images. A video of a NASA employee admitting that they have no actual photos of the entire earth from space. He would know, as he is the computer geek who assembled the composites.

Don't even go there with your condescending "let's be rational nonsense."

Your mind is already made up, there is no amount of evidence that will ever convince you.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Sad.

Your post at #276 have different centers so that does change the apparent size of the land.
What is your point? That the Earth has not been observed? some Conspiracy to keep us all fooled or what?

 

[Job 33:6]

You are crediting the ancient Israelites with similar cosmology as their neighbors, but their cosmology was completely different than any of the surrounding nations. They believed in a single God, who was not associated with any of the planets or stars (as were the Greek and Roman gods), or with the seasons, weather, or physical objects (as many of the even more ancient culture's deities were), but He had made all of those things out of nothing. They believed that the planets and stars were hung by God, not that they were gods.

Of course the Israelites followed God and not pagan deities. But we are speaking more in terms with the structure of the cosmos. For example, the solid dome sky:

Job 37:18 ESV
[18] Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?

Amos 9:6 NASB1995
[6] The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

Job 22:14 NRSV
[14] Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’

They may have had similar biological understanding as their neighbors (you feel shifting in your gut when you have certain emotions, so they portrayed those emotions as being associated with the gut), but that symbology is still prevalent in our language, especially poetry, even today. That doesn't mean that we believe that emotions are housed there. So it is entirely probable that even they did not believe that the emotions were housed in the gut, just that that imagery was common in their language.

Anyone could say the same thing about ancient Israelite cosmology that describes the sun as "rising".

But whether someone thinks of the text as metaphorical or not, or poetry or whatever you want to call it, that doesn't change what it says nor does it change the culture in which it originated out of.

You want to start Creation in Gen 1:3, and discount the creation that is stated to have begun in Gen 1:1.

Huh? Let's stay on track here. No need to strawman me with rhetoric.

And now you are trying to use figurative language associated with the gut to explain away what you don't like about the Creation story. It won't work. God made everything from nothing, and He did it in just 6 physical days of evening to morning. There is no other way of looking at what God told us in the first two chapters of Genesis. Look over at the restating of the Creation in Gen 2:4. "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven."
He didn't start with an already existing canvas. He started with nothing and made the heavens and Earth in a single day, then proceeded over the next few days to form and populate the Earth.

So, why can God allow for ancient Israelite culture and context in the Bible when it comes to anatomy, such as in references of kidneys and intestines, but God can't do the same for Israelite cosmology?

And in Genesis chapter 2, God did start with pre existing material. What are you talking about?

Genesis 2:4-7 NASB1995
[4] This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven. [5] Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. [6] But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. [7] Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

 

[Doug Brents]

Of course the Israelites followed God and not pagan deities. But we are speaking more in terms with the structure of the cosmos. For example, the solid dome sky:

Job 37:18 ESV
[18] Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?

There is debate as to whether Job came before the Flood or after it. If it came before the Flood, then we have absolutely no way of knowing what the sky was like before God released the water that was above the Earth. It may very well have been like a metal mirror. But if he came after the Flood, then it is, as some Scripture is, figurative language that again does not necessarily indicate the cosmology of the writer.

Amos 9:6 NASB1995
[6] The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

Job 22:14 NRSV
[14] Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’

Again, the sky does appear as a vaulted dome over the Earth from any place on the Earth that one stands. This does not indicate any extraordinary cosmology.

Huh? Let's stay on track here. No need to strawman me with rhetoric.

No strawman. You said yourself that God did not create the heavens and the earth; that He started with a preexisting earth and began creating with Light in Gen 1:3.

So, why can God allow for ancient Israelite culture and context in the Bible when it comes to anatomy, such as in references of kidneys and intestines, but God can't do the same for Israelite cosmology?

And in Genesis chapter 2, God did start with pre existing material. What are you talking about?

Genesis 2:4-7 NASB1995
[4] This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven. [5] Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. [6] But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. [7] Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

When they were CREATED. Not when they already existed and He began to shape them. Notice that verse seven is already skipping to the sixth day. This account skips much of what chapter 1 tells us, but it starts, just as chapter 1 did, with God making the heavens and Earth from nothing.

 

[Job 33:6]

There is debate as to whether Job came before the Flood or after it. If it came before the Flood, then we have absolutely no way of knowing what the sky was like before God released the water that was above the Earth.

What about Amos?

Amos 9:6 NASB1995
[6] The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

Or Exodus:
and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Or
Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

Or proverbs etc.

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

Also, the waters above remained above. They didn't go anywhere:

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

When are you going to actually accept what the Bible says?

It may very well have been like a metal mirror. But if he came after the Flood, then it is, as some Scripture is, figurative language that again does not necessarily indicate the cosmology of the writer.

Figurative language or not, these passages still say what they say.

The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.
Amos‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭NASB

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

I'm perfectly happy calling these figurative passages. But even still, they still describe a dome in the sky, as is per usual in ancient Israelite cosmology. And this solid vault or dome is described as restraining the waters above:

Genesis 7:11 NASB1995
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.

Genesis 8:2 NASB1995
[2] Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;

Or do you think that the NASB is "bastardized" when it talks about the sky's floodgates closing up and restraining rain?

And again, before you go on saying "well this is figurative and poetic and that's metaphorical yadda yadda"

Remember, metaphorical or not, it still says what it says. The text is still describing the sky with solid qualities, and in these instances, the sky is also restraining water above it (because that's what solid floodgates do, flood gates restrain flood waters).

It just seems like time and time again, you just have a problem with what the Bible says.

Again, the sky does appear as a vaulted dome over the Earth from any place on the Earth that one stands. This does not indicate any extraordinary cosmology.

A solid vault or vaulted dome is a common aspect of ancient cosmology.

No strawman. You said yourself that God did not create the heavens and the earth; that He started with a preexisting earth and began creating with Light in Gen 1:3.

I've never said that. That God didn't create the heavens and the earth? You're just being dishonest again.

When they were CREATED. Not when they already existed and He began to shape them. Notice that verse seven is already skipping to the sixth day. This account skips much of what chapter 1 tells us, but it starts, just as chapter 1 did, with God making the heavens and Earth from nothing.

Please spare me your assumptions about when verse 7 takes place.

Ancient vs Modern Cosmology

I wanted to take a session to discuss and revisit something we’ve talked about before in our series on the Supernatural by Dr. Michael Heiser. This will come up again later in the Fall on our study over Genesis. And that is the concept of Cosmology. I think one of the biggest problems in the...

sermons.logos.com

 

[Doug Brents]

What about Amos?

Amos 9:6 NASB1995
[6] The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

Again, the sky does appear as a vaulted dome over the Earth from any place on the Earth that one stands. This does not indicate any extraordinary cosmology. (already addressed in previous post).

Or Exodus:
and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Is the sky not perfectly clear (well, probably much more clear 3500 years ago)?

Or
Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

This is in a vision and cold be describing Heaven (the third Heaven/where God lives) or Earth, we cannot be sure.

Or proverbs etc.

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

God is all powerful. He set the "laws" that govern how the sky works, how water works, how the earth is fixed around the Sun, and the ground is fixed in place on the surface of the Earth. This has nothing to do with describing ancient Israelite cosmology.

Figurative language or not, these passages still say what they say.

I'm perfectly happy calling these figurative passages. But even still, they still describe a dome in the sky, as is per usual in ancient Israelite cosmology.

The same can be said today. The sky is a dome above us from any point on Earth that we stand, from the tallest mountain peak to the lowest pit from which you can still see the sky; it is still a dome overhead. That does not change or impact our understanding that the Earth is a globe, or that the atmosphere above us is a complete sphere around the Earth. So it should not be used to say that they had a different understanding of the world than what we have. You are making a stupid and ignorant argument.

A solid vault or vaulted dome is a common aspect of ancient cosmology.

It still is today.

I've never said that. That God didn't create the heavens and the earth? You're just being dishonest again.

Forgive me. I confused you with another thread of conversation. My mistake.

Please spare me your assumptions.

No assumption at all. Just reading what the Word of God says. On day three God made land (Gen 1:8-9) and on day six God made man (Gen 1:23-26). So when Gen 2:5 says there was no shrub on the land, we know we are somewhere early on day three, and when Gen 2:7 states that He made man, He is skipping forward to later in the day on day six.

 

[Job 33:6]

Again, the sky does appear as a vaulted dome over the Earth from any place on the Earth that one stands. This does not indicate any extraordinary cosmology. (already addressed in previous post).

Is the sky not perfectly clear (well, probably much more clear 3500 years ago)?

Do you normally describe the sky as being like pavement of sapphire stone?

Exodus 24:10 ESV
[10] and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.

This is in a vision and cold be describing Heaven (the third Heaven/where God lives) or Earth, we cannot be sure.

It's the same term, the Hebrew raqia.

God is all powerful. He set the "laws" that govern how the sky works, how water works, how the earth is fixed around the Sun, and the ground is fixed in place on the surface of the Earth. This has nothing to do with describing ancient Israelite cosmology.

When people ask you to describe the sky, is "strong" one of the first adjectives that comes to mind?


He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

The same can be said today. The sky is a dome above us from any point on Earth that we stand, from the tallest mountain peak to the lowest pit from which you can still see the sky; it is still a dome overhead. That does not change or impact our understanding that the Earth is a globe, or that the atmosphere above us is a complete sphere around the Earth. So it should not be used to say that they had a different understanding of the world than what we have. You are making a stupid and ignorant argument.

Yes, so stupid and ignorant that the majority of Christian Hebrew scholars make the same arguments. Thank you for enlightening me.

It still is today.

Forgive me. I confused you with another thread of conversation. My mistake.

No assumption at all. Just reading what the Word of God says. On day three God made land (Gen 1:8-9) and on day six God made man (Gen 1:23-26). So when Gen 2:5 says there was no shrub on the land, we know we are somewhere early on day three, and when Gen 2:7 states that He made man, He is skipping forward to later in the day on day six.

Um no, nobody today describes the sky as a solid dome that restrains water.

Figurative language or not, these passages still say what they say.

The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.
Amos‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭NASB

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

I'm perfectly happy calling these figurative passages. But even still, they still describe a dome in the sky, as is per usual in ancient Israelite cosmology. And this solid vault or dome is described as restraining the waters above:

Genesis 7:11 NASB1995
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.

Genesis 8:2 NASB1995
[2] Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;

Or do you think that the NASB is "bastardized" when it talks about the sky's floodgates closing up and restraining rain?

And again, before you go on saying "well this is figurative and poetic and that's metaphorical yadda yadda"

Remember, metaphorical or not, it still says what it says. The text is still describing the sky with solid qualities, and in these instances, the sky is also restraining water above it (because that's what solid floodgates do, flood gates restrain flood waters).

It just seems like time and time again, you just have a problem with what the Bible says.

 

[Job 33:6]

I mean, let's be honest.

Who reads a passage like this:

Job 37:18 ESV
[18] Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?

And thinks "hmmm, well, it can't possibly be talking about a solid sky as most if not every ancient nation had writings about. Oh I know! It must be talking about some pre-flood magic dome that disappeared somewhere and we don't know where it went!"

I mean come on man. How obvious can the Bible be?

The solid dome didn't go anywhere. It's referenced throughout all of the OT. As are the waters above. They didn't go anywhere either. They're still there, just look up, as you yourself have said.

The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.
Amos‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭NASB

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11 ESV

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2 ESV

“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

He has described a circle on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18 ESV

13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14‬ ‭

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10

Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,
Psalm 78:23

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.
Psalms 150:1

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

Earth over pillars. The circle of the earth. The sky being a solid dome that God walks on, a celestial ocean of blue water like lapiz lazuli or sapphire stone etc.

This isn't some weird coincidence. It's ancient cosmology. It's readily depicted on artifacts like the unfinished kuduru stone and the tablet of shamash of ancient Mesopotamia.

@Doug Brents : "oh well, it used to be a real thing. It was there. And then after the flood it just disappeared or something, and maybe Job was actually written before Genesis and...but we don't know for sure".

Ok...really?

When are you going to stop fighting against the Bible, and start reading it on its own terms?

Similar to kidneys, livers and intestines, the Bible has context. And it's ok to acknowledge that context. In fact, that's how you read the Bible "literally". It starts by reading the Bible in its original context.

 

[Semper-Fi]

Of course the Israelites followed God and not pagan deities.

Is that why they built a golden calf?
This is so false, please reread your bible.

Just as Romans 1:25 says, "They traded the truth about God for a lie.
So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the
Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.

-The Classical Planets

Astronomers of the ancient world were unable to properly tell
the difference between planets and stars. Planets were typically
referred to as “wandering stars.”

History of the telescope only started in the beginning of the 17th century.

Visible to humans on Earth there are seven classical planets
(the seven luminaries). They are from brightest to dimmest:
the Sun, the Moon and the five star-like classical planets,
the astra planeta (Venus, Jupiter, Mars, Mercury and Saturn).

Venus

The Roman goddess Venus is modeled after the Greek Aphrodite,
who herself is derived from the Babylonian goddess Ishtar.
Ishtar also held the title “queen of heaven”, being the brightest
object in the night sky (after the moon). Ishtar means “star.”

The Babylonian records about Ishtar/Venus are incredibly thorough
Centuries of Babylonian observations of celestial phenomena were
recorded in the series of cuneiform tablets. Depictions of this
goddess show her standing next to the symbol of the “star” Venus.

Ishtar is referenced in multiple places in the Bible, the Phoenician
equivalent name “Ashtoreth” (likewise meaning “star”), and by her title
“queen of heaven” (i.e. 1 Kings 11; Jeremiah 7 and 44; and Ezekiel 8;

Another mention of this planet by the name “Meni” in Isaiah 65:11.
Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon). “For Solomon went after Ashtoreth
the goddess of the Zidonians [Phoenicians]” (1 Kings 11:5).

In idolatrous periods, planetary” worship even took place
in the temple itself at Jerusalem (2 Kings 23:4).
-

Saturn
ChiunH3594
כִּיּוּן
kı̂yûn
kee-yoon'
From H3559; properly a statue, that is, idol; but used (by euphemism) for some heathen deity (perhaps corresponding to Priapus or Baal-peor): - Chiun.
Total KJV occurrences: 1
-

The name Chiun is well known as a reference to the planet Saturn.
Saturn is the slowest-moving classical planet meaning “steadfast”.

Israelites’ worship of Saturn during their 40-year sojourn in
the wilderness, after they left Egypt in the 15th century b.c.e.

Amos 5:26 condemns the Israelites for having made idols
to “Chiun … the star [planet] of your god ….”

Topical Bible: Chiun

Evidently, this planet had long been known to Israel.
-

Mercury

The small planet closest to the sun.
Probably of foreign derivation; Nebo, the name of a Babylonian deity,
also of a mountain in Moab, and of a place in Palestine -- Nebo.

Isaiah 46:1 references the Babylonian gods “Bel” and “Nebo.”
“Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth [or ‘sinks’];
Their idols are upon the beasts, and upon the cattle ….”

Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon: “Nebo is a proper noun of
the planet Mercury, worshiped as the celestial scribe by the
Chaldeans (Isaiah 46:1) and the ancient Arabians …. Mount Nebo
seems to have been so called from the worship of Mercury.”

Babylonian texts refer to Nebo (Mercury) as the “running god.”
The Romans considered Mercury the “messenger” god.) Mercury
has the fastest orbit around the sun.
-

Mars

Mars, known as the planetary deity Nergal, was an especially significant
deity in the Assyrian city Nineveh (this is reflected in 2 Kings 17:30).

Nergal was associated with Mars, a planet like him associated
with disease (especially kidney disease) in Mesopotamian beliefs.

Neo-Babylonian observations of the planet Nergal (Mars) are remarkably
detailed and include the observation that it made 42 circuits of the zodiac
-

Jupiter

The Roman deity Jupiter is the later equivalent of Baal in the Bible.
Jupiter was sometimes even referred to as Jupiter Belus, or “Jupiter Baal”.

Other ancient gods associated with the planet Jupiter include [Marduk]
(Merodach; Jeremiah 50:2) and Gad (Fortune; Isaiah 65:11).

H4781
מְרֹדָךְ
merôdâk
mer-o-dawk'
Of foreign derivation; Merodak, a Babylonian idol: - Merodach. Compare H4757.
Total KJV occurrences: 1

The Babylonians made some impressive calculations of Jupiter.
A fourth-century b.c.e. Babylonian tablet used a “trapezoid
procedure” to calculate the orbit path of the planet.

The understanding the Babylonians and other ancient peoples had of
the stars and planets is simply extraordinary. They could calculate
planet trajectories and even foretell eclipses long in advance.

Impressive powers of observation and math were required to develop
such understanding, and the priests used it to control people.

The conclusions of this “experimentation” and “observation”?
It was the widespread paganization of such physical objects.

“gods, Which yet are no gods … Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this”

 

[Job 33:6]

Is that why they built a golden calf?
This is so false, please reread your bible.

Please pay attention to discussion to understand the context in which I am speaking.

What I'm saying is that, ancient Israelite cosmology is not a 1 to 1 match with things like ancient Egyptian cosmology. For example, ancient Israelites didn't believe in the sky goddess nut. Or Moses did not, for example.

And if you want to argue that they did, then obviously you're just adding more ammunition to my own argument that indeed, the Bible describes an ancient cosmology.

With that said, the rest of your post is irrelevant.

 

[Semper-Fi]

Please pay attention to discussion to understand the context in which I am speaking.

You made this statement that was proven false in my last post period..........

Job 33:6 said:
Of course the Israelites followed God and not pagan deities.