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Shouldn't Creationism be taught at public schools?

Jipsah

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Not everyone was like Donald Trump, who considered us "suckers" and "losers" for going.
The "suckers and losers" thing has been debunked.as was ther "Nazis are good people" lie. Check Snopes.

Back to the subject at hand, though. Government schools can't teach religion, end of. Fine with me, I don't want my kids taught precepts of Islam or Hinduism as anything other as matters of social studies. I'd prefer they weren't taught the doctrines of some of the more fringy Christian sects as well. Six (24 Hour) Day Creation? Flat earth? No thanks. I'll leave the grandkids' religious education to me, their parents, and their respective churches. I don't want the gummint involved at all.
 
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Jipsah

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Jipsah

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I can get conscientious objectors. Religious objections deserve consideration. Chickenhawks annoy me. Guys who found doctors who would write them spurious excuses, those are the despicable ones.
How about those of us who had high lottery numbers and no inclination to volunteer to be shot at?
 
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Diamond72

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How about those of us who had high lottery numbers and no inclination to volunteer to be shot at?
They wanted me to pick up the pieces after people blow each other apart. It made no sense to me at all that people were doing this to each other. I can not imagine wanting to hurt people like that.
 
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Jipsah

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I'm starting to suspect that you use "Communist Manifesto" the way white nationalists use "woke."
I'd make a fairly lousy white nationalist, being a "mongrel" meself, but I use "woke" that way as well. I see it as a matter of Balkanizing the population and keeping them sorted into easier-to-manipulate victim groups. Being, as I've often claimed, "half Korean and half redneck", neither side of that equation is comfortable with people who claim to have my interests at heart without knowing anything more about me and mine than how we look or how we're classified on a census form. The "woke" folks are all about "equity", until it's time to exclude those who've come from a culture that just refuses to behave like oppressed minorites. We have to be restricted on racial lines lest we be "over represented" in selected pursuits. Fortunately the courts have put the kibosh on that sort of thing, but the "woke" fought that decision tooth and nail.

Anyway, off topic, mea culpa. Plus I'm using random pronouns, which is a bad sign. I think I'll log off and watch last weekend's Millwall v Leeds game. (Come on you Lions!)
 
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Job 33:6

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Cosmology is science. So your statement is an oxymoron.

Cosmology is a perspective of the cosmos. It is not science.

Ancient Egyptians for example, had a perspective that the sky was made out of water. The waters above. But that's not science. It's just a historical phenomenological perspective.
 
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Job 33:6

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True, but we don't find "flat Earth" cosmology in Scripture.
The earth resting on pillars, in a stationary fashion, is for practical purposes "flat earth cosmology". It's the cosmology of ancient Israel and the wider near east.

And you can find this cosmology depicted on a variety of artifacts. Such as the Babylonian map of the world, or the unfinished kuduru stone.

Now obviously, in modern times, we find this uncomfortable and perhaps offensive. But in ancient times, people simply described the world through their perspective. They didn't have satellite dishes. They had not sailed or taken an airplane around the earth. And so their descriptions of cosmology were relatively limited. And thus, took on the depiction, as flat. That's how they drew it and described it in ancient times.
 
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Job 33:6

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True, but we don't find "flat Earth" cosmology in Scripture.
See here for "the circle of the earth"

Ancient cosmology, which predates the scientific method, can be understood as a form of proto-science or philosophical inquiry. It reflects humanity's early attempts to explain the origins and structure of the cosmos based on observation, interpretation of natural phenomena, and cultural or religious frameworks. While it lacks the empirical rigor and systematic experimentation characteristic of modern science, it represents an important stage in the development of human thought.

Ancient cosmologies often relied on phenomenological perspectives, where explanations were drawn from what could be directly observed and experienced.
 
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Jipsah

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True, but we don't find "flat Earth" cosmology in Scripture.
Nope. We see vernacular usage then, as today, reflects the appearance of what we see and not the technical reality.

“Flat Earth” is an exercise in the denial of reality for the sake of false piety. It’s bad “science” and bad religion, and makes those who embrace it for any reason look like nitwits.
 
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Job 33:6

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Nope. We see vernacular usage then, as today, reflects the appearance of what we see and not the technical reality.

“Flat Earth” is an exercise in the denial of reality for the sake of false piety. It’s bad “science” and bad religion, and makes those who embrace it for any reason look like nitwits.
The challenge is that the text doesn't really differentiate one way or the other whether the author or audience thought of it in a technical sense or in a phenomenological sense.

No one really knows what the original it intent was or how people would have understood it. Literal or non-literal.

There's no reason to necessarily assume though. That people back then knew that the sun literally did not rise. What is referred to figuratively today. May have been historically how it was technically understood.

But ultimately, the text does describe an earth that is flat. Whether Genesis was intended to be understood metaphorically or literally, to say such a thing, is debatable.
 
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Job 33:6

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And flat Earth cosmology and a modern 21st century. Since, where you have satellite imagery and airplanes and everyone knows that the Earth is today, there's a difference between flat Earth denialist today, and people who lived many thousands of years ago before such technology existed to know the shape of the Earth.

There's a big difference here.

And I think that people in the 21st century, we the concept of a flat Earth and we find it offensive because it's just so stupid, and so of course if someone said that the Bible presented a flat Earth, many in the church would find this offensive.

But from a an academic sense, it's a known fact of history that people many centuries ago just didn't know the shape of the Earth.

That's just a fact that we all have to accept, and when we look at scripture, scripture was actually written many centuries before the discovery of the shape of the Earth. We're talking literally Genesis or parts of Genesis dating back 6'7 or 800 years before Greeks even had clear arguments for the shape of the Earth.

I think people forget that the Bible really is an incredibly ancient argument, even though we have modern English translations today that make it look modern.

The Bible doesn't talk about modern things like the discovery of DNA or the internet or artificial intelligence or spacecrafts or subatomic photons or general relativity or the theory of evolution or heliocentrism or...

You could think of any number of recent discoveries in science, and you don't find these things in the Bible because the Bible was written before they were discovered.

And among those many many things, is the spherical shape of the earth. And so it's not intentional or intentionally offensive if I say that the Bible presents a flat Earth. Rather it's a reflection on the contextual background of scripture.

And people are going to have a hard time separating the two. Our culture has taught us clearly that flat Earth is so stupid or weird or conspiracy related that we want nothing to do with it. But we can't let the modern flat Earth movement negatively influence our understanding of ancient history.

Kind of like how the early Catholic Church didn't know that the Earth orbited the Sun, it's not that people were stupid, they just lived in a time before such concepts were known.

Just like how 30 years ago, nobody really knew much of anything about the internet, it's not that people were stupid, that kind of concept and Discovery just didn't exist yet.

And a thousand years into the future from now, people will still look back on us today and will say, wow those 21st century Americans, there was so much that they didn't know in terms of cosmology, even Stephen Hawking, as brilliant as he was, or Albert Einstein or any of the smartest scientific thinkers of human history, it doesn't matter who you pick, there are things that they didn't know or won't know 500 years in the future from now.

That doesn't make Stephen Hawking stupid, it just contextualizes the time and which Stephen Hawking lived.

And when we read the Bible, we kind of have to do the same thing, when did Moses live?
 
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Doug Brents

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Cosmology is a perspective of the cosmos. It is not science.

Ancient Egyptians for example, had a perspective that the sky was made out of water. The waters above. But that's not science. It's just a historical phenomenological perspective.
What is science?
the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained

So what you describe is, in fact, science.
 
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Job 33:6

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What is science?
the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained

So what you describe is, in fact, science.
Ancient cosmology is none of these things. What experimentation was involved with the sky being described as an ocean in Egyptian cosmology?

I guess if you want to call it science, you can. But this should not be confused with science as is understood in a modern sense of the word where there is a scientific method and theories and things like that.

There were no theories back then. No scientific method. No hypotheses in any formal sense.

It's better understood as a form of proto-science. People beginning to ask bigger questions. But not yet studied in a modern systematic sense.
 
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Job 33:6

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What is science?
the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained

So what you describe is, in fact, science.

Here is a better description in terms of Biblical study. We aren't speaking of cosmology in the modern scientific sense of the word.
 
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