Should you believe in the trinity II

[2ducklow]

No comment.

Simonline.

no comment is a good way to avoid dealing with your illogicalities, nonsensical statements, confusing contradictory statements and scripture that c ontradicts you, as I repeatedly have pointed out for you.

 

[2ducklow]

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Not true. The Scriptures teach that the Son as the Word/Truth is as much YHWH as the Father and the Holy Spirit (Jn.1:1,14; 8:58).

You need to burn that copy of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures that you're using and get yourself a ligitimate translation.

According to the authentic Judeo-Christian Scriptures, the Son (like His Father and His Spirit) is Absolute Reality (i.e. YHWH), not a finite creature.

more confusing nonbiblical talk. no scritpure says the son is absolute reality. whatever that means. scripture says Jesus is a man, not absolute reality. scripture says God the Father is the one and only true god, not absolute reality.

Furthermore, YHWH is incapable of possessing 'foreknowledge'.

wrong again.

1 Peter 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,


Jesus was foreknown by God according to Gods own word.

In fact, YHWH is incapable of possessing anything.

You mean he doesn't possess all power?

Only Creatures possess. YHWH simply exists as. YHWH IS Absolute knowledge (As Absolute Reality, there is no 'Past' or 'Future' with YHWH, only Eternal 'Now').

this is ridiculous. God isn't knowledge or absolute knowledge or limited knowledge. god is a spirit not knowledge.
read the bible for a change instead of your trinity theology books.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Before any created thing was brought into existence YHWH [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] existed as the One Absolute Reality and, as such, were Absolute knowledge.

nonsensical illogical unbiblical . no verse says god is knowledge or reality. you do. no verse says YHWH is father son and holy ghost, you do.

That has NEVER changed (even since the advent of the Creation) and NEVER will change.


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Why do you use a translation of the Scriptures that is deliberately translated in such a way as to make it awkward and cumbersome to read in order to make it easier for those who produced it to inculcate the heretical and blasphemous teachings of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society into those who are 'forced' to use it?!

I agree the NWT changes the word at times to suit it's doctrine, but much less so than the average trinitarian bible.

Before the Son/Word/Truth incarnated as a human creature, He existed as the Second Person of the Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH. That's what the authentic Judeo-Christian Scriptures consistently teach.

No not true. scritpure doesn't teach anything, christians teach your aforementioned interpretation of scripture. Scripture teaches nothing it is just what God says. bible teachers teach, the holy spirit teaches, but not the word.

Isa.43:10-13 (the very text from which the Jehovah's Witnesses take their name) teaches that there is ONLY ONE GOD (i.e. YHWH) and that He alone is both the Creator and Saviour, He and NOT another. Yet those same Scriptures also teach that the Messiah is both the ONE and ONLY Creator and Saviour (Col.1:13-17). Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that YHWH is Tri-Personal and NOT Mono-Personal and that the Son/Word/Truth, as the Messiah, IS YHWH Himself, incarnate as the man, Jesus of Nazareth (Jn.1:1,14; 14:6; 17:17).

no the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is the only savior who died for our sins, and God the Father is the only savior who accepts Jesus sacrifice for us as payment for our sins. the bible says that god the father is one Lord and that Jesus is one Lord. but they are also differnet types of Lords. obviously there are multitudes of other types of lords, like the english Lord Mountbatten who died a few years back.
he is a different type of lord than jesus or God the Father.

If you destroy that 'mickey mouse' perversion of the Scriptures that you're using then you might have your eyes opened by the Holy Spirit as you study an authentic translation.

Simonline.

and if you ever dealt with your inconsistenceies you would give up trinity.

 

[beloved57]

same thing. . the net result is that you believe that any one who doesn't believe the trinity is lost.

Yes, if you dont believe in the trinity before jesus returns or you die, you are lost..

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Yes, if you dont believe in the trinity before jesus returns or you die, you are lost..

Provide scripture please. You don't have an argument unless you provide support for what you are saying. Otherwise, what you say has no merit.

 

[scriptures]

Why do you use a translation of the Scriptures that is deliberately translated in such a way as to make it awkward and cumbersome to read in order to make it easier for those who produced it to inculcate the heretical and blasphemous teachings of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society into those who are 'forced' to use it?!

Brother, In that quotation I did not used NWT.... It's obvious your not familiar with NWT....

Also I am not force to use NWT in my personal studies... I am not one of the JWs....I use it because of sound scholarship that it reflects.....

For example... NWT correctly translated Jn 1:18... unfortunately brother 2ducklow does not agree with it....

(John 1:18) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.​

I suggest you get a NWT from the JWs....don't discriminate..... they are minority...but they have lots of sense than most major religions today....​

 

[2ducklow]

Brother, In that quotation I did not used NWT.... It's obvious your not familiar with NWT....

Also I am not force to use NWT in my personal studies... I am not one of the JWs....I use it because of sound scholarship that it reflects.....

For example... NWT correctly translated Jn 1:18... unfortunately brother 2ducklow does not agree with it....

(John 1:18) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.​

I suggest you get a NWT from the JWs....don't discriminate..... they are minority...but they have lots of sense than most major religions today....​

here is some evidence for the reading 'ony begotten son' in john 1.18.

What exactly is the evidence against “the only begotten Son”? Sir Frederic Kenyon’s Handbook to the Textual Criticism of the New Testament gives credit for the departure from the Authorized Version of 1611 to the influence of the Codex Sinaiticus. This Greek manuscript was discovered by Constantin Tischendorf in 1844 in the Eastern Orthodox monastery of St. Katharine at the base of the traditional Mt. Sinai.
In fact, the United Bible Society’s Greek New Testament lists eight Greek texts that read the “only begotten god” though some manuscripts have a “the” and some do not. Yet, thirty-one listed manuscripts and a multitude of quotations from the early Christian authors attest to the King James reading of “only begotten Son”. The Sinaiticus, whose authority is definitive in this decision, is thought to be a product of the fourth century after Christ. Yet, at least two authors of the second century (Irenaeus and Clement) quote the passage as “the only begotten Son.”

 

[beloved57]

Provide scripture please.

You dont need scripture, you need a newbirth, which i cannot provide..

 

[Simonline]

more confusing nonbiblical talk. no scritpure says the son is absolute reality. whatever that means. scripture says Jesus is a man, not absolute reality. scripture says God the Father is the one and only true god, not absolute reality. [/color]
wrong again.

1 Peter 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,


Jesus was foreknown by God according to Gods own word.

You mean he doesn't possess all power?
this is ridiculous. God isn't knowledge or absolute knowledge or limited knowledge. god is a spirit not knowledge.
read the bible for a change instead of your trinity theology books.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

nonsensical illogical unbiblical . no verse says god is knowledge or reality. you do. no verse says YHWH is father son and holy ghost, you do.
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I agree the NWT changes the word at times to suit it's doctrine, but much less so than the average trinitarian bible.
No not true. scritpure doesn't teach anything, christians teach your aforementioned interpretation of scripture. Scripture teaches nothing it is just what God says. bible teachers teach, the holy spirit teaches, but not the word.
no the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is the only savior who died for our sins, and God the Father is the only savior who accepts Jesus sacrifice for us as payment for our sins. the bible says that god the father is one Lord and that Jesus is one Lord. but they are also differnet types of Lords. obviously there are multitudes of other types of lords, like the english Lord Mountbatten who died a few years back.
he is a different type of lord than jesus or God the Father.

and if you ever dealt with your inconsistenceies you would give up trinity.

No comment

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Brother, In that quotation I did not used NWT.... It's obvious your not familiar with NWT....

Also I am not force to use NWT in my personal studies... I am not one of the JWs....I use it because of sound scholarship that it reflects.....

For example... NWT correctly translated Jn 1:18... unfortunately brother 2ducklow does not agree with it....

(John 1:18) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.​

I suggest you get a NWT from the JWs....don't discriminate..... they are minority...but they have lots of sense than most major religions today....​

For the record, I already own a copy of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures which I use whenever an uninformed J.W. is foolish enough to knock on my door (experienced local J.W's know, from personal experience, to avoid my home like the plague). I am reasonably familiar with it and also with the teachings of Charles Taze Russell and the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

If you think that the New World Translation is an accurate translation of Jn.1:18 then there is no hope for you.

Why do you think that the Messiah is able to reveal the Father to the rest of us? The answer is because the Son, even as the incarnate Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, is still the same Absolute Reality as that of the Father and the Holy Spirit (i.e. YHWH).

What John is saying is that no human who is only a regular human being has ever seen the Father but this particular human (i.e. the Messiah) is no 'regular' human being. He is YHWH Himself, incarnate as the human being, Jesus of Nazareth and that is precisely why this human being (i.e. the Messiah) has knowledge of the Father equal to that of the Father's knowledge of Him (i.e. Absolute) - Matt.11:27; Lk.10:22.

Clearly, the Father has chosen not to reveal the true identity of the Messiah to you (Matt.11:25-26; 13:11-17; 1Cor.1:18-2:16)...yet (which is why you can't see it)?!

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Provide scripture please. You don't have an argument unless you provide support for what you are saying. Otherwise, what you say has no merit.

If you do not believe that YHWH is Trinitarian then you are effectively suppressing the truth ('holding the truth in unrighteousness') in favour of believing a lie - i.e. that YHWH is essentially Unitarian in Nature, contrary to what YHWH has revealed about Himself through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures (Jn.1:1,14; 14:6; 17:17; Acts.9:5; Rom.1:18-32 et. al).

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Shalom Simonline!

I disagree with your statement. How can it be the Truth as you say without scripture support? How can the trinity be the truth if the word Trinity is found no where in the tanakh(old test.) and in the brit hadasha(new test.). Besides.. where did you get this Trinity thingy majingy from??

Don't fall into the trap of believing that anything that is not explicitly stated in the Scriptures is, by definition, false. Just because the Judeo-Christian Scriptures do not contain specific theological terminology does not necessarily mean that that terminology (or the concept(s) which that terminology conveys) is false. Such a simplistic understanding of the Scriptures is both infantile and moronic.

If the Judeo-Christian Scriptures teach that there is only one God and they also teach that the Father is God, that the Son is God and that the Holy Spirit is God (whilst, at the same time they DO NOT teach that only one of those three Persons [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] is the one and only God, then, by definition, the Judeo-Christian Scriptures are teaching that the one and only God is Tri-Personal rather than Mono-Personal in Nature (i.e. God is Trinitarian, not Unitarian in Nature).

If this is not the case then, by definition, on the basis of what God has revealed through His Scriptures, we are declaring a) that God is senile and no longer knows what He is talking about, and b) that we know better than God what He is really like?!

Simonline.

 

[scriptures]

For the record, I already own a copy of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures which I use whenever an uninformed J.W. is foolish enough to knock on my door (experienced local J.W's know, from personal experience, to avoid my home like the plague). I am reasonably familiar with it and also with the teachings of Charles Taze Russell and the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

If you think that the New World Translation is an accurate translation of Jn.1:18 then there is no hope for you.

Why do you think that the Messiah is able to reveal the Father to the rest of us? The answer is because the Son, even as the incarnate Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, is still the same Absolute Reality as that of the Father and the Holy Spirit (i.e. YHWH).

What John is saying is that no human who is only a regular human being has ever seen the Father but this particular human (i.e. the Messiah) is no 'regular' human being. He is YHWH Himself, incarnate as the human being, Jesus of Nazareth and that is precisely why this human being (i.e. the Messiah) has knowledge of the Father equal to that of the Father's knowledge of Him (i.e. Absolute) - Matt.11:27; Lk.10:22.

Clearly, the Father has chosen not to reveal the true identity of the Messiah to you (Matt.11:25-26; 13:11-17; 1Cor.1:18-2:16)...yet (which is why you can't see it)?!

Simonline.

Brother Simonline, don't judge people.... don't judge me.... don't judge the JWs.... As far as I know there is only one judge....definitely not you....

Thank you for owning a NWT.... I don't say It's the best translation.... because all translation are just translations... they fall short of the original... there is no perfect translation.... but it's good to compare... and not to limit yourself to traditional christian beliefs....

again may I remind you... don't judge....

 

[Simonline]

You know, I actually don't want answers to my questions. Not this one anyway. I don't believe in the Trinity, but I do believe that NO ONE but God has the answer to it. No human (seriously, no human) can say with definitive certainty that the trinity is truth. Neither can one say it isn't. And that's why the debate itself is so very amusing to me.

So, no, I don't want closure on the matter until I meet God upon my demise. But yes, I do believe I have the right to believe what I believe.
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On the basis of what you have said in this post alone it is abundantly clear that you are enveloped in the thickest spiritual darkness in which it is possible to be enveloped. You have effectively declared a) that all Divine Revelation to men (i.e. Creation, conscience, the Judeo-Christian Scriptures and, supremely, His own Incarnation as the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth) is invalid because all men (without exception (including the Messiah Himself)) are incapable of receiving it and, on that basis, of knowing any truth, since you wrongly believe that only exhaustive (i.e. infinite) knowledge is valid?!

This utterly undermines the message of the gospel that salvation is obtained only on the basis of living faith (based on knowledge and understanding) in the Truth as Absolute (something which you have declared it is impossible for any man to know), therefore, according to you (by implication), all men are destined for everlasting Perdition on the sole basis that we cannot know Truth and therefore cannot place our trust in/on what we cannot know?!

I think you need to go away and give some very serious thought to what you really believe?

Simonline.

 

[scriptures]

Brother Simonline, I was surprised, you did not noticed that I did not used NWT in my quotation of Jn 1:1-3?????

 

[2ducklow]

Don't fall into the trap of believing that anything that is not explicitly stated in the Scriptures is, by definition, false. Just because the Judeo-Christian Scriptures do not contain specific theological terminology does not necessarily mean that that terminology (or the concept(s) which that terminology conveys) is false. Such a simplistic understanding of the Scriptures is both infantile and moronic.

If the Judeo-Christian Scriptures teach that there is only one God and they also teach that the Father is God, that the Son is God and that the Holy Spirit is God (whilst, at the same time they DO NOT teach that only one of those three Persons [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] is the one and only God, then, by definition, the Judeo-Christian Scriptures are teaching that the one and only God is Tri-Personal rather than Mono-Personal in Nature (i.e. God is Trinitarian, not Unitarian in Nature).

If this is not the case then, by definition, on the basis of what God has revealed through His Scriptures, we are declaring a) that God is senile and no longer knows what He is talking about, and b) that we know better than God what He is really like?!

Simonline.

scriptures don't teach anything. scriptures are the written word, they don't have a brain and lips to teach. God teaches, and bible teachers teach. your bible teachers taught you the trinity not scriptures. My bible teachers taught me my doctrine, not scriptures. whether bible teachers use scripture to teach is another matter. whether God revealed trinity to you or God revealed oneness to me, is subjective and not something that can be proven to someone else. so to say That God revealed trinity to you, in no way proves it is true to someone else. My saying God revealed that God is one, not three, in no way proves to someone else that my doctrine is true. Everyone believes God revealed ( well that's a bit hyperbolic perhaps) their doctrine to them.

 

[2ducklow]

No comment

Simonline.

no comment, that's a new one.

 

[Kris10leigh]

On the basis of what you have said in this post alone it is abundantly clear that you are enveloped in the thickest spiritual darkness in which it is possible to be enveloped. You have effectively declared a) that all Divine Revelation to men (i.e. Creation, conscience, the Judeo-Christian Scriptures and, supremely, His own Incarnation as the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth) is invalid because all men (without exception (including the Messiah Himself)) are incapable of receiving it and, on that basis, of knowing any truth, since you wrongly believe that only exhaustive (i.e. infinite) knowledge is valid?!

This utterly undermines the message of the gospel that salvation is obtained only on the basis of living faith (based on knowledge and understanding) in the Truth as Absolute (something which you have declared it is impossible for any man to know), therefore, according to you (by implication), all men are destined for everlasting Perdition on the sole basis that we cannot know Truth and therefore cannot place our trust in/on what we cannot know?!

I think you need to go away and give some very serious thought to what you really believe?

Simonline.

Wow, you must really be bored. You had to go all the way back to page 1 to find that quote from me.

You think I need to go away, and yet haven't noticed I haven't posted for several pages? Drawing me out, Simon?

What is your point?

 

[2ducklow]

Wow, you must really be bored. You had to go all the way back to page 1 to find that quote from me.

You think I need to go away, and yet haven't noticed I haven't posted for several pages? Drawing me out, Simon?

What is your point?

feeding the bear again?

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

You dont need scripture, you need a newbirth, which i cannot provide..

I can careless what your opinion towards me maybe. Your strategy is to erect non-sequitures rather then providing scriptural evidance, want to know why? BECAUASE YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT. You must need a new birth as much as i need it, for your lack of argumentation and implementation of your norm on others reveals the truth about your character! Well, seems like you already casted the first stone. Are you free of sin??

 

[2ducklow]

You dont need scripture, you need a newbirth, which i cannot provide..

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

still wanna say you don't need scriptures to be born again?