Should you believe in the trinity II

[Simonline]

Oh, I don't know. That's a bit harsh. The church teaches trinity.

It's a bit harsh because '2ducklow' is intransigently hostile to the truth. No matter what evidence or sound argument is presented in favour of the truth of the Trinity, '2ducklow' will not accept it. It has been my experience that '2ducklow' is so intransigent against the truth that I'd bet my everlasting salvation on him still refusing to accept the truth even when he stands before the Messiah in judgment (that's why I now refuse to respond to anything he says that isn't true (which is about 99.999(recurring)% of everything he says)?!

If it isn't there already, it's imprinted on the brain in the 8th grade in confirmation classes, the age that just precedes the questioning of authority. I remember it well. I DID question authority. I didn't understand back then and I asked questions and for this was not allowed to come back to confirmation class! And I was a really good kid!

The reason why 8th graders are inculcated with the teaching of the Trinity is because it happens to be the truth (which is why the Church has held to it as orthodox doctrine since the 5th century and believed it for a lot longer than that). The fact that many people (even within the Church) struggle to correctly articulate it to others does not mean that it is any less true for being difficult to articulate. This is the absolute Creator God we're talking about here, who, by Nature, is utterly beyond anything that any finite human mind can fully comprehend but that does not mean that God is utterly beyond all human comprehension (otherwise His Divine revelations would also be utterly beyond our comprehension and we would know absolutely nothing about God)?! What God reveals to us (including His Nature as Trinitarian) is absolutely true, but God does not reveal absolutely everything.

We're taught to just have faith and that it's wrong to believe otherwise.

No, we're taught to try and understand the Trinity if we can but not to worry if we can't because our salvation is based on faith, not on our ability to comprehend complex theology. We are, however, taught to accept the doctrine of the Trinity as being true, even if we can't understand it, because God has revealed Himself to Mankind as being Trinitarian in Nature and, on that basis, the Church (with her many great and adept theologians) has always taught that the Trinity is true.

This is not the same as being told to 'Shut up and don't ask awkward questions!'. I for one, am completely intolerant of any such attitude. Judeo-Christianity is an intelligent faith and people have every right to ask 'awkward questions' (as long as they are honest 'awkward questions' based on honest reasonable doubt and not just a cynical expression of an underlying prejudicial hostility toward the truth) and to receive equally honest and intelligent answers. Anyone whom I find trying to 'fob off' an honest enquirer will get short, sharp shrift from me!

It takes a very strong person to stand up to such dogma. (Or stubborness in my case. )

Any such person would be an utter fool to think that they can oppose the Truth and win since, in opposing the Truth, they would be opposing God Himself and anyone foolish enough to try is dead before they even begin (Ps.2).

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

HELLO VIRTUAL GIRL. I HAVE A QUESTION. I KNOW YOU ARE CHRISTIAN BECAUSE OF YOUR ICON. MY HUSBAND DOES NOT BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY BUT HE DOES BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOD. I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, SINCE THE QUESTIONS THAT HE ASKS IN CHALLANGING THE TRINITY ARE VERY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO ADDRESS WHEN CONFRONTING HIM. LAST WEEK WE CONGRAGATED IN THE SYNAGOUGE HIS PARENTS ATTEND AND THE RABBI THAT WAS PREACHING MADE COMMENTS ON THE TRINITY. I LOOKED AT HIM AND HE PUT THIS FACE AS IF HE WAS WILLING TO CONFRONT THAT RABBI RIGHT THERE AND THEN. BEFORE HE EVEN OPENED HIS MOUTH I FORBADE HIM FROM DISTURBING. THOUGH HE TOLD ME HE WAS NOT GOING TO DO ANY,THING, I KNOW HOW CONFRONTATIONAL MY HUSBAND IS WHEN IT COMES TO DEBATING THEOLOGICAL POINTS. EVEN THOUGH I ADMITE HE HAS A LOT OF PATIENTS. I HATE TO DEBATE UNLIKE MY HUSBAND SO IM NOT GOING TO DEBATE THEOLOGY. I ONLY LIKE TO DEBATE MY HUSBAND AND THATS IT . WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE TRINITY AND HOW WOULD YOU EXPLAINE IT? A LADY IN THE SYNAGOUGE LAST WEEK TOLD MY HUSBAND IN SPANISH ABOUT THE OUTER PART OF THE EGG THE WHITE AND THE YOLK WHICH ONLY MAKES ONE EGG. MY HUSBAND IN RESPONSE SAID THAT THE WHITE IS NOT THE YOLK, NOR IS THE OUTER PART I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAY IT IN ENGLISH THE YOLK NOR THE WHITE, SO THAT MEANS THAT ALL ARE DIFFERENT BUT CONNECTED BUT STILL DIFFERENT. THANK YOU, WAITING FOR YOUR RESPONSE..

Now you know why YHWH says 'Don't use any created thing to try and define or illustrate me because no created thing comes even close to the Absolute Reality that is Me' which is why I personally never use the illustration of 'water, steam and ice' - H2O in three different modes of existence - supposedly representing 'the Father', 'the Son' and 'the Holy Spirit' - since this is the heresy of modalism (a.k.a. Sabellianism or 'Oneness' theology), the illustration of the egg (shell, albumen and yoke) since, although the 'egg' is one it is made up of three separate component parts [the Persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct from each other but they are NOT separate from each other, otherwise they would be three separate gods (a metaphysical impossiblilty (there cannot ever be more than one Absolute Reality), which is why Tri-theism is denounced by the Church as heresy)] or even the illustration of the three-leafed shamrock because, being a corporeal creature, each single leaf is essentially separate from the other two.

The closest thing to God that we humans can experience is each other and the relationships that exist between us. This is because every human creature is made in the likeness of God (Gen.1:26-27) but even a human creature (especially a fallen human creature) is a far cry from the non-corporeal Absolute Reality that is YHWH.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

While I see your point, it IS a good analogy for what trinitarians believe.

As one who is an ultra hard-core Trinitarian I can tell you that no analogy for YHWH is 'good', in fact, YHWH Himself says that we are not to use analogies in order to describe or illustrate Him because they will all fall far short of the Truth and lead us into idolatry (by developing and cherishing distorted concepts of what God is like).

God tells us to base our understanding of Him strictly on His own revelation of Himself through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures and nothing else. Only then will our concepts of Him be most likely to be consistent with what He has revealed about Himself.

It fails for you because you don't believe it

No, it fails for him/her because it isn't true and serves only to inculcate an idolatrous understanding of God. I would never use such an illustration and I would always disuade others (especially other Trinitarians) from using it too, referring them instead to the Divine revelation that is Scripture.

...but it does fairly represent their belief.

Not even close! No analogious concept of God can adequately represent the Truth.

Does it help you to better understand where they are coming from? What they are taught?

The only thing that can help us to correctly understand the true Nature of God is His own revelation that is the Judeo-Christian Scriptures. No human analogious illustration will ever come even remotely close to the Truth.

And yes, you're right, it does seem to point to four gods. I hadn't really thought about that. It seems there's the father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and then there's God. But that makes God out to be very strange indeed, I think.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit do NOT exist 'within' God. They ARE God (both individually and collectively). Absolute Reality (of which there can be ONLY ONE) is Tri-Personal (i.e. Trinitarian) rather than Mono-Personal (i.e. Unitarian) in Nature.

Simonline.

 

[2ducklow]

It's a bit harsh because '2ducklow' is intransigently hostile to the truth. No matter what evidence or sound argument is presented in favour of the truth of the Trinity, '2ducklow' will not accept it. It has been my experience that '2ducklow' is so intransigent against the truth that I'd bet my everlasting salvation on him still refusing to accept the truth even when he stands before the Messiah in judgment (that's why I now refuse to respond to anything he says that isn't true (which is about 99.999(recurring)% of everything he says)?!

That's me. Mr. 2 duck low, but I like this post of yours better.

Not just 'something', virtually everything you say is a blatant manipulation of the truth in order to try and make it appear as if it endorses your idolatrous understanding of God. Only those who, through honest study, have familiarized themselves with the truth, as revealed through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures (which rules out many of the people who post on this site) are aware of how you deceitfully and dishonestly manipulate the truth for your own ends. Such deceitful manipulation of the truth is the very essence of witchcraft [i.e. the manipulation of spiritual forces for one's own ends] and as such is absolutely contrary to Judeo-Christianity.

hum I thought only women could be witches.
then there was this you gave also.

You may well have 'Jesus' in your heart but the Jesus you have in your heart is definitely not the Jesus whom the Judeo-Christian Scriptures reveal since He is YHWH Himself, incarnate as the man Jesus of Nazareth, something that you, like your father (Jn.8:44), vehemently deny.

ew a satanist and a witch, that's some pretty heavy duty stuff there simon.

The very fact that virtually every statement you make contradicts the Judeo-Christian Scriptures simply confirms that you are not a true believer, a member of the elect, otherwise we would be fighting the good fight on the same side, upholding the truth together? As it is, we are on oposite sides and only one of us is a true believer, the other is simply masquerading as an angel of light and only the true believers can see right through your deception.

I seem to be a popular topic here.

 

[scriptures]

You just have to believe what the scriptures say...

It's clear Jesus is the son of God.....

YHWH is the almighty God....

No trinity....

To be a christian is to believe in Christ.......


agape

 

[2ducklow]

You just have to believe what the scriptures say...

It's clear Jesus is the son of God.....

YHWH is the almighty God....

No trinity....

To be a christian is to believe in Christ.......


agape

hey I agree with everything you said here......If you could only see that Jesus isn't a god. oh well.

 

[scriptures]

hey I agree with everything you said here......If you could only see that Jesus isn't a god. oh well.

Yeah, I know those who are close to what I believe...and you are one of them....

Brother, how would you explain Jn 1:1 and 1:18?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

YAH - SHUA IS a NAME SPOKEN BY an ANGEL, Recorded in Scripture,
.
AND MEANS something, let's see, what was it ?
.
YAHWEH also IS a NAME in SCRIPTURE... hmmmm ANY MORE NAMES ???
.
holy spirit... hmm , look in SCRIPTURE.... oops, "holy" is ALWAYS an adjective..
.
turns out that 'holy' IS NEVER A NAME.... how about that @?@! open eyes, insert foot.
.
.
.
p.s.
in english doesn't count - in english they couldn't even get YAHSHUA'S NAME right, or didn't, did they...
(look up jesus - it's not a name in SCRIPTURE and doesn't MEAN anything)
i.e. if english translators couldn't get the Messiahs NAME right, well, look into it.
see the post in anabaptists about
what
NAME IN SCRIPTURE
is translated right, and why.

 

[2ducklow]

Yeah, I know those who are close to what I believe...and you are one of them....

Brother, how would you explain Jn 1:1 and 1:18?

john 1.1? God is a qualitative predicate nominative qualifing or saying something about the subject which is the word. In the same way that love is a qualitative predicate nominative in the v erse "god is love" love isn't equal to God, love is a quality of God. 'The car is red' red is a qualitative predicate nominative saying something about the car. it doesn't mean that the color red is a car. And the word was god doesn't mean that god is what he says.

john 1.18? figurative. the word of God, or what god says, didn't literally change into a clump of flesh. Jesus is the fulfillment of god's word or plan for man. Jesus is what God wants us all to be like.

 

[scriptures]

john 1.1? God is a qualitative predicate nominative qualifing or saying something about the subject which is the word. In the same way that love is a qualitative predicate nominative in the v erse "god is love" love isn't equal to God, love is a quality of God. 'The car is red' red is a qualitative predicate nominative saying something about the car. it doesn't mean that the color red is a car. And the word was god doesn't mean that god is what he says.

I agree with your explaination, "and the Word was God" does not say that the Word is God himself....rather it tells us that the Word has qualities rather than identity of God.....

But where do we defer? I see the Word as a being rather than just plain "saying" or "plan".... I see "him" as someone who existed along side his Father before he ever existed as a man.....

Jn 1:18.... it seems to me that you avoided the real topic.... it says "the only begotten God"...... brother, may I know your side here.....

 

[2ducklow]

oops

 

[2ducklow]

I agree with your explaination, "and the Word was God" does not say that the Word is God himself....rather it tells us that the Word has qualities rather than identity of God.....

But where do we defer? I see the Word as a being rather than just plain "saying" or "plan".... I see "him" as someone who existed along side his Father before he ever existed as a man.....

can't be. the bible says god foreknew christ before the foundation of the world. you can't foreknow someone who exists only someone who doesn't exist.

Jn 1:18.... it seems to me that you avoided the real topic.... it says "the only begotten God"...... brother, may I know your side here.....

i was thinking of john 1.14. ok john 1.18. some manuscripts says only begotten god, and some say only begotten son. I believe only begotten son to be the correct reading for a number of reasons I won't bother to go into .
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.ASV

 

[beloved57]

you spread a false gospel which is " believe the trinity and you will be saved".

obviously you dont know me that well..belief does not save anyone, never has and never will, jesus blood does..

The elect are saved before they are born..

But one who is saved will eventually manifest faith and belief in the triune God..

 

[scriptures]

can't be. the bible says god foreknew christ before the foundation of the world. you can't foreknow someone who exists only someone who doesn't exist.

No, He can.... The word existed as a mighty being alongside his Father and God foreknew what would become of his Son....


I will post here Jn 1:1-4 so that you can realized what the Word was before he existed as a man....



1 . In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
2 this one was in the beginning with God;
3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men,



I hope these verses will help.....



Originally Posted by 2ducklow

i was thinking of john 1.14. ok john 1.18. some manuscripts says only begotten god, and some say only begotten son. I believe only begotten son to be the correct reading for a number of reasons I won't bother to go into .
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.ASV

With regards to Jn 1:18, the reading "only begotten God" was based on older manuscripts...so I believe it's the correct one... You have to open up for treasures rather than limiting yourself.....

 

[2ducklow]

No, He can.... The word existed as a mighty being alongside his Father and God foreknew what would become of his Son....


I will post here Jn 1:1-4 so that you can realized what the Word was before he existed as a man....



1 . In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
2 this one was in the beginning with God;
3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men,



I hope these verses will help.....

Jesus is not literally the word. the word existed before the foundation of the world but not Jesus, according to the word.

1 Peter 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,ASV

Originally Posted by 2ducklow



With regards to Jn 1:18, the reading "only begotten God" was based on older manuscripts...so I believe it's the correct one... You have to open up for treasures rather than limiting yourself.....

It is absurd in the extreme to say that God is begotten. God has no beginning and no end. I believe theos in john 1.18 to be a very early manuscript error. the difference between god and son in Greek manuscirpts is only one line through an O. In faded manuscripts son could eaisly have been mistaken for God. THe oldest manuscript isn't the only consideration to take when deciding what the trure reading of scripture is. "only begotten God" goes against everything else in the bible. Jesus was begotten not God. Jesus is the son of god, not God. Jesus isn't the one who begat himself, that is utterly absurd.

 

[2ducklow]

obviously you dont know me that well..belief does not save anyone, never has and never will, jesus blood does..

The elect are saved before they are born..(are not, this is John Calvin's teachings)

But one who is saved will eventually manifest faith and belief in the triune God..

same thing. . the net result is that you believe that any one who doesn't believe the trinity is lost.


Mark 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So your faith is in the teachings of the murderer John Calvin. you still haven't provided any scripture that says one has to believe the trinity or they ain't saved. I belive the word of God not you or the murderer John Calvin.


John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I trust in the word that says to belive in Jesus and the one who sent him for my salvation. you can trust in the teachings of that murderer John Calvin if you want but I wouldn't advise it. base your salvation on what God says, not John calvin. I know the one in whom I believe do you?

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, andhim whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.




I'm taking my stand on the word of God, not John Calvin.

After some negotiation, Ami Perrin, commissioner for Geneva, persuaded Calvin to return. He did so, though unwillingly, on September 13, 1541. Geneva was a church-city-state of 15,000 people, and the church constitution now recognized "pastors, doctors, elders and deacons," but the supreme power was given to the magistrate, JohnCalvin. In November 1552, the Council declared Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion to be a "holy doctrine which no man might speak against." Thus the State issued dogmatic decrees, the force of which had been anticipated earlier, as when Jacques Gruet, a known opponent of Calvin, was arrested, tortured for a month and beheaded on July 26, 1547, for placing a letter in Calvin's pulpit calling him a hypocrite. Gruet's book was later found and burned along with his house while his wife was thrown out into the street to watch. Gruet's death was more highly criticized by far than the banishment of Castellio or the penalties inflicted on Bolsec -- moderate men opposed to extreme views in discipline and doctrine, who fell under suspicion as reactionary. Calvin did not shrink from his self-appointed task. Within five years fifty-eight sentences of death and seventy-six of exile, besides numerous committals of the most eminent citizens to prison, took place in Geneva. The iron yoke could not be shaken off. In 1555, under Ami Perrin, a revolt was attempted. No blood was shed, but Perrin lost the day, and Calvin's theocracy triumphed. JohnCalvinhad secured his grip on Geneva by defeating the very man, Ami Perrin, commissioner of Geneva, who had invited him there.

Calvin forced the citizens of Geneva to attend church services under a heavy threat of punishment. Since Calvinism falsely teaches that God forces the elect to believe, it is no wonder that Calvin thought he could also force the citizens of Geneva to all become the elect. Not becoming one of the elect was punishable by death or expulsion from Geneva.Calvin exercised forced regeneration on the citizens of Geneva because that is what his theology teaches.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cacheWFOHWqGddwJ:bigchurch.com/blog/walking_man/28/+John+Calvin+had+at+least+58+people+put+to+death+besides+Michael+Servetus&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

Trust in Jesus not John Calvin.

 

[Simonline]

You just have to believe what the scriptures say...

It's clear Jesus is the son of God.....

YHWH is the almighty God....

No trinity....

To be a christian is to believe in Christ.......


agape

Except that that isn't what the Scriptures teach.

The Scriptures actually teach that the Messiah is YHWH Himself, incarnate as the man, Jesus of Nazareth. The Messiah is not a separate entity to YHWH (and certainly not His 'son' in the way that we are children of our human parents) otherwise that would exclude Him from being God (i.e. YHWH) since the Scriptures are adamant that there is ONLY ONE GOD who is Absolute Reality and that God doesn't sire offspring (Isa.43:10-13) since the idea of more than one absolute reality is imbecilic in the extreme?!

A Christian is one who believes that the Messiah is YHWH Himself, incarnate as the man, Jesus of Nazareth. Anyone who does not believe that is, by definition, not a Christian.

Lucifer and all his cohorts 'believe' in Christ! Does that make them Christians?! Believing in Christ is not enough. It is what you believe about Christ (whether or not that corresponds with the Truth) and how you trust the Messiah on the basis of what you believe about Him that determines your everlasting destiny, not just the fact that you 'believe in Him', because it's possible to believe the wrong things about Him (as you are doing) and still end up in the everlasting Lake of Fire?!

Simonline.

 

[2ducklow]

Except that that isn't what the Scriptures teach.

The Scriptures actually teach that the Messiah is YHWH Himself,

scripture does not say that Jesus is God, or YHWH, or Jehovah, or the Lord God or any such thing. that is your interpretation of scripture not scripture.

incarnate as the man, Jesus of Nazareth.

]sane as above. no scripture says anything anywhere about any incarnation.

The Messiah is not a separate entity to YHWH (and certainly not His 'son' in the way that we are children of our human parents) otherwise that would exclude Him from being God (i.e. YHWH)

Jesus is a man. God is a spirit, God is not a man. two beings one human and one spirit. according to scriptures that is. And God created a new thing (new human male seed) that enabled a woman (Mary) to go around a man to conceive. jer. 31.23. So God is the father of Jesus who is 100 percent human in the same way that any other human is, namely the result of human male seed from his father and human egg from his mother being fertilized thereby.

since the Scriptures are adamant that there is ONLY ONE GOD who is Absolute Reality

wrong again. scriptures are adamant that God the
Father is the one and ONLY TRUE GOD.. John 17.3 and 1 cor. 8.6.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

scripture says God the Father is the one and only true god. No scripture says only god is absolute reality. I don't htink anyone even knows what "only God is absolute reality means anyway. its just confusing talk with no real meaning.

and that God doesn't sire offspring (Isa.43:10-13) since the idea of more than one absolute reality is imbecilic in the extreme?!

God begat Jesus, thus your interpretation of isa. is wrong.


Rotherham) Matthew 1:20 But, when, these things, he had pondered, lo! a messenger of the Lord, by dream, appeared to him, saying,--Joseph, son of David! do not fear to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for, that which, in her, hath been begotten, is of [the], Holy, Spirit.


begat means sire.

A Christian is one who believes that the Messiah is YHWH Himself,

wrong again. a christian is someone who believes in Jesus and the one who sent him, accordingto scripture that is and not according to any church council.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

and of course john 3.16.

the scripture says to believe his word, not believe someones interpretation of his word, or that you have to understand all of his word, or that you have to believe any kind of doctrine to be saved, just believe his word and on him that sent Jesus. No verse says to believe the trinity to be saved. that is a man made requirement for salvation and thus not true. I put my trust in the word of God, and not church councils as you do for my salvation.

incarnate as the man, Jesus of Nazareth. Anyone who does not believe that is, by definition, not a Christian.

the word incarnate is no where in the word of God, another of your man made requirements for salvation. You interpret john 1.14 to mean that Jesus is incarnation of YHWH, and require your interpretation for salvation. I believe John 1.14, not your intepretation of it. rejecting your interpretation has nothing to do with whether I believe God's word or not. I do not reject john 1.14, I reject your interpreatation and especially your requirement that I beleive you to be saved.

Lucifer and all his cohorts 'believe' in Christ!

No verse says that. and Satan does not believe in Christ or in God. the verse you allude to says that the devils believe there is one God and tremble, not they believe in christ. you frequently misrepresent scripture to your advantadge as you do here. but scriptures bear out your false representation.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

they believe, not they believe in. Do you know the difference between believing something and believing in something? I believe Hitler wrote mein Kampf and that he existed, but I don't believe in Hitler.

Does that make them Christians?! Believing in Christ is not enough. It is what you believe about Christ (whether or not that corresponds with the Truth) and how you trust the Messiah on the basis of what you believe about Him that determines your everlasting destiny, not just the fact that you 'believe in Him', because it's possible to believe the wrong things about Him (as you are doing) and still end up in the everlasting Lake of Fire?!

No scripture says what we believe about christ saves us. its' believing his word and in him, again you make up your man made requirements for salvation that are found no where in the bible. I beleive the bible not your interpretations for my salvation ,and thee bible says to believe in God the Father and the one who sent him and you will be saved.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

No, He can.... The word existed as a mighty being alongside his Father and God foreknew what would become of his Son....

Not true. The Scriptures teach that the Son as the Word/Truth is as much YHWH as the Father and the Holy Spirit (Jn.1:1,14; 8:58).

You need to burn that copy of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures that you're using and get yourself a ligitimate translation.

According to the authentic Judeo-Christian Scriptures, the Son (like His Father and His Spirit) is Absolute Reality (i.e. YHWH), not a finite creature.

Furthermore, YHWH is incapable of possessing 'foreknowledge'. In fact, YHWH is incapable of possessing anything. Only Creatures possess. YHWH simply exists as. YHWH IS Absolute knowledge (As Absolute Reality, there is no 'Past' or 'Future' with YHWH, only Eternal 'Now').

Before any created thing was brought into existence YHWH [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] existed as the One Absolute Reality and, as such, were Absolute knowledge. That has NEVER changed (even since the advent of the Creation) and NEVER will change.

I will post here Jn 1:1-4 so that you can realized what the Word was before he existed as a man....

1 . In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
2 this one was in the beginning with God;
3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men,



I hope these verses will help.....

Why do you use a translation of the Scriptures that is deliberately translated in such a way as to make it awkward and cumbersome to read in order to make it easier for those who produced it to inculcate the heretical and blasphemous teachings of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society into those who are 'forced' to use it?!

Before the Son/Word/Truth incarnated as a human creature, He existed as the Second Person of the Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH. That's what the authentic Judeo-Christian Scriptures consistently teach.

Isa.43:10-13 (the very text from which the Jehovah's Witnesses take their name) teaches that there is ONLY ONE GOD (i.e. YHWH) and that He alone is both the Creator and Saviour, He and NOT another. Yet those same Scriptures also teach that the Messiah is both the ONE and ONLY Creator and Saviour (Col.1:13-17). Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that YHWH is Tri-Personal and NOT Mono-Personal and that the Son/Word/Truth, as the Messiah, IS YHWH Himself, incarnate as the man, Jesus of Nazareth (Jn.1:1,14; 14:6; 17:17).

If you destroy that 'mickey mouse' perversion of the Scriptures that you're using then you might have your eyes opened by the Holy Spirit as you study an authentic translation.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

scripture does not say that Jesus is God, or YHWH, or Jehovah, or the Lord God or any such thing. that is your interpretation of scripture not scripture.
]sane as above. no scripture says anything anywhere about any incarnation.
Jesus is a man. God is a spirit, God is not a man. two beings one human and one spirit. according to scriptures that is. And God created a new thing (new human male seed) that enabled a woman (Mary) to go around a man to conceive. jer. 31.23. So God is the father of Jesus who is 100 percent human in the same way that any other human is, namely the result of human male seed from his father and human egg from his mother being fertilized thereby.
wrong again. scriptures are adamant that God the[/color]
Father is the one and ONLY TRUE GOD.. John 17.3 and 1 cor. 8.6.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

scripture says God the Father is the one and only true god. No scripture says only god is absolute reality. I don't htink anyone even knows what "only God is absolute reality means anyway. its just confusing talk with no real meaning. God begat Jesus, thus your interpretation of isa. is wrong.


Rotherham) Matthew 1:20 But, when, these things, he had pondered, lo! a messenger of the Lord, by dream, appeared to him, saying,--Joseph, son of David! do not fear to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for, that which, in her, hath been begotten, is of [the], Holy, Spirit.


begat means sire.

wrong again. a christian is someone who believes in Jesus and the one who sent him, accordingto scripture that is and not according to any church council.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

and of course john 3.16.

the scripture says to believe his word, not believe someones interpretation of his word, or that you have to understand all of his word, or that you have to believe any kind of doctrine to be saved, just believe his word and on him that sent Jesus. No verse says to believe the trinity to be saved. that is a man made requirement for salvation and thus not true. I put my trust in the word of God, and not church councils as you do for my salvation.
the word incarnate is no where in the word of God, another of your man made requirements for salvation.
No verse says that. and Satan does not believe in Christ or in God. the verse you allude to says that the devils believe there is one God and tremble, not they believe in christ. you frequently misrepresent scripture to your advantadge as you do here. but scriptures bear out your false representation.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

they believe, not they believe in. Do you know the difference between believing something and believing in something? I believe Hitler wrote mein Kampf and that he existed, but I don't believe in Hitler.
No scripture says what we believe about christ saves us. its' believing his word and in him, again you make up your man made requirements for salvation that are found no where in the bible. I beleive the bible not your interpretations for my salvation ,and thee bible says to believe in God the Father and the one who sent him and you will be saved.

No comment.

Simonline.