Should you believe in the trinity II

[scriptures]

Correction. That's how you choose to see it because you do not want to believe the truth (and since you choose to base your understanding on the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures that's hardly surprizing).

Simonline.

Brother, choosing a translation is a difficult one... First you must consider the manuscript on which the translation was base.... oldest is better.....second translators must not be bias towards traditional christians...

For that, I don't really have a favorite Bible.... I always check my "ISA" for clarity.....NWT, NASB and NAB(catholic Bible) are the major ones I use.......As you can see all three translations are representative of Major christian denominations....

 

[Simonline]

Brother, choosing a translation is a difficult one... First you must consider the manuscript on which the translation was base.... oldest is better.....second translators must not be bias towards traditional christians...

Actually, translators must not be biased, period (so why do you use a New World Translation since that version is totally biased in favour of the doctrines and heresies of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society)?!

For that, I don't really have a favorite Bible.... I always check my "ISA" for clarity.....NWT, NASB and NAB(catholic Bible) are the major ones I use.......As you can see all three translations are representative of Major christian denominations....

The New World Translation is anything but 'representative of major Christian denominations' since no Christian denomination endorses it. You're quick to state that translators should not be biased toward orthodox Christianity but the fact that you make no mention of the possibility of being baised against orthodox Christianity suggests that you yourself are, in fact, biased against orthodox Christianity (as further evidenced by everything else you have written)?!

Perhaps you need to remove your myopically Unitarian spectacles and allow the Judeo-Christian Scriptures to speak for themselves (without any bias either way)?

Simonline.

 

[scriptures]

Actually, translators must not be biased, period (so why do you use a New World Translation since that version is totally biased in favour of the doctrines and heresies of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society)?!



The New World Translation is anything but 'representative of major Christian denominations' since no Christian denomination endorses it. You're quick to state that translators should not be biased toward orthodox Christianity but the fact that you make no mention of the possibility of being baised against orthodox Christianity suggests that you yourself are, in fact, biased against orthodox Christianity (as further evidenced by everything else you have written)?!

Perhaps you need to remove your myopically Unitarian spectacles and allow the Judeo-Christian Scriptures to speak for themselves (without any bias either way)?

Simonline.

Brother, I said I used NASB, NAB and NWT.... why do you single out NWT??? I can use NAB all the way... but that will defeat my purpose of studying the Bible.... Little known people like the JWs so far did a marvelous job of translating the Bible... The same way with NASB and NAB....

 

[Simonline]

Brother, I said I used NASB, NAB and NWT.... why do you single out NWT??? I can use NAB all the way... but that will defeat my purpose of studying the Bible.... Little known people like the JWs so far did a marvelous job of translating the Bible... The same way with NASB and NAB....

Then why, except when being used by Christians to point out inconsistencies or refute heresy to Jehovah's Witnesses and the like, is the New World Translation universally repudiated as heretical by all mainstream Christian denominations as a Bible used only by heretics and religious cranks?!

Don't just try and dismiss my comments by declaring 'because they're all biased against the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society' because there are good reasons why mainstream Christianity rejects the NWT (as any former Jehovah's Witness turned Christian will tell you).

The truth is that the NWT is an abysmal translation done by people who had a vested interest in translating the text in a particular way (which is why, as far as I know, their names are not listed in any published editions).

Simonline.

 

[2ducklow]

Brother, I said I used NASB, NAB and NWT.... why do you single out NWT??? I can use NAB all the way... but that will defeat my purpose of studying the Bible.... Little known people like the JWs so far did a marvelous job of translating the Bible... The same way with NASB and NAB....

I agree that the NWT is a better translation on many scriptures than the average non JW bible is, but there are better translations than the NWT in my estimation. Rotherham's Emphasised Bible is the best, In my estimation, and along with the ASV the ones I use the most. James Rotherham was on the ASV committee that drafted the ASV bible and was dissatisfied with what they came up with so he did his translation, which is a very literal translataion , and the best by far of any that are out there, but even he gives in to tradition and false translations at times. like he uses the word godhead, which isn't a biblcal word. But they all do that, except the NASB, which correctly translates it as diety. I mean what would trinity be without being able to say godhead this and godhead that? Godhead is the place the trinity hangs out so if they don't have godhead in the bible they got no place for the trinity to hang out at. so there is so much vested interest in mistranslating 'theotes' as godhead, that almost nobody correctly translates it as diety, which is what it means in col. 2.9. So my point is that even a good translation is not enough in every scripture.
But even a poor translation, like the KJV can be right when most all others are wrong. So it pays to have a variety of different bibles at one's disposal if one is interested in always finding the correct reading of a verse...
The NWT, as good as it is, fails on certain key scriputures that are of great doctrinal importance to them whereas , non JW bibles don't. ON the other hand, the NWT suceeds on certain key scriptures that are of great doctrinal importance to trinitarians, where most other bibles fail miserably, (not all though, you might be interested to know that the ASV is one of the bibles with the fewest trinitarian interpolations of scripture in it, although it does have some.)

It's like people are apt to be more objective in their translations and determination of what the correct reading is IF it doesn't affect one of their pet doctrines. If it does, then whether one is trinitarian, unitiarian, JW or whatever, the temptation is there to not be objective and people on all sides give in to that temptation. Don't read a trinitarian bible to know what the correct reading is for trinitarian proof scriptures. Don't read a JW bible to know what the correct reading is for JW proof scriptures, etc.

 

[2ducklow]

Actually, translators must not be biased, period (so why do you use a New World Translation since that version is totally biased in favour of the doctrines and heresies of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society)?!

And which bible version is the totally unbiased one? None of them agree with each other on every scripture, and they all disagree lots.
so which is the unbiased one?

The New World Translation is anything but 'representative of major Christian denominations' since no Christian denomination endorses it. You're quick to state that translators should not be biased toward orthodox Christianity but the fact that you make no mention of the possibility of being baised against orthodox Christianity suggests that you yourself are, in fact, biased against orthodox Christianity (as further evidenced by everything else you have written)?!

and of course you are not biased against JWs. and of course none of your translations are ever biased against unitarianism in any scripture whatsoever, even though they disagree often on any given scripture. obvioulsy only JW's and unitarians, and oneness, and whatever are ever ever ever biased about anything. and trinitarians are never ever ever ever biased when they translate a bible, right? time for the cone of silence now?

.

Perhaps you need to remove your myopically Unitarian spectacles and allow the Judeo-Christian Scriptures to speak for themselves (without any bias either way)?

Simonline.

which is better myopically unitarian spectacles or myopically trinitarian spectacles? depends on ones point of view. Ok time for the cone of silence simon.

 

[Simonline]

And which bible version is the totally unbiased one? None of them agree with each other on every scripture, and they all disagree lots.
so which is the unbiased one?
and of course you are not biased against JWs. and of course none of your translations are ever biased against unitarianism in any scripture whatsoever, even though they disagree often on any given scripture. obvioulsy only JW's and unitarians, and oneness, and whatever are ever ever ever biased about anything. and trinitarians are never ever ever ever biased when they translate a bible, right? time for the cone of silence now?[/color]
which is better myopically unitarian spectacles or myopically trinitarian spectacles? depends on ones point of view. Ok time for the cone of silence simon.

No comment

Simonline.

 

[Kris10leigh]

No comment

Simonline.

So glad I took the time to open this thread.

 

[yashualover]

Jesus' Two Natures​

Jesus is God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully divine and fully man. That is, Jesus has two distinct natures: divine and human. Jesus is the Word who was God and was with God and was made flesh, (John 1:1,14). This means that in the single person of Jesus is both a human and divine nature. The divine nature was not changed. It was not altered. He is not merely a man who "had God within Him" nor is he a man who "manifested the God principle." He is God, second person of the Trinity. "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word," (Heb. 1:3, NIV). Jesus' two natures are not "mixed together," nor are they combined into a new God-man nature. They are separate yet act as a unit in the one person of Jesus. This is called the Hypostatic Union.
The following chart should help you see the two natures of Jesus "in action":
GOD MAN He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33).He worshiped the Father (John 17).He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8)He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5).He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1)He was called Son of Man (John 9:35-37)He is prayed to (Acts 7:59).He prayed to the Father (John 17).He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15).He was tempted (Matt. 4:1).He knows all things (John 21:17).He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52).He gives eternal life (John 10:28).He died (Rom. 5:8).All the fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9).He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).

The Communicatio Idiomatum​

A doctrine that is related to the Hypostatic Union is the communicatio idiomatum (Latin for "communication of properties"). It is the teaching that the attributes of both the divine and human natures are ascribed to the one person of Jesus. This means that the man Jesus could lay claim to the glory He had with the Father before the world was made (John 17:5), claim that He descended from heaven, (John 3:13), and also claim omnipresence, (Matt. 28:20). All of these are divine qualities that are laid claim to by Jesus; therefore, the attributes of the divine properties were claimed by the person of Jesus.

Mistakes Cultists make​

One of the most common errors that non-Christian cults make is not understanding the two natures of Christ. For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses focus on Jesus' humanity and ignore His divinity. They repeatedly quote verses dealing with Jesus as a man and try and set them against scripture showing that Jesus is also divine. On the other hand, the Christian Scientists do the reverse. They focus on the scriptures showing Jesus' divinity to the extent of denying His true humanity.
For a proper understanding of Jesus and, therefore, all other doctrines that relate to Him, His two natures must be properly understood and defined. Jesus is one person with two natures. This is why He would grow in wisdom and stature (Luke 2:52) yet know all things (John 21:17). He is the Divine Word that became flesh (John 1:1,14).
The Bible is about Jesus (John 5:39). The prophets prophesied about Him (Acts 10:43). The Father bore witness of Him (John 5:37; 8:18). The Holy Spirit bore witness of Him (John 15:26). The works Jesus did bore witness of Him (John 5:36; 10:25). The multitudes bore witness of Him (John 12:17). And, Jesus bore witness of Himself (John 14:6; 18:6).
Other verses to consider when examining His deity are John 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:6-8; and 2 Pet. 1:1.
1 Tim. 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Right now, there is a man in heaven on the throne of God. He is our advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1). He is our Savior (Titus 2:13). He is our Lord (Rom. 10:9-10). He is Jesus.

 

[Simonline]

And which bible version is the totally unbiased one? None of them agree with each other on every scripture, and they all disagree lots.
so which is the unbiased one?
and of course you are not biased against JWs. and of course none of your translations are ever biased against unitarianism in any scripture whatsoever, even though they disagree often on any given scripture. obvioulsy only JW's and unitarians, and oneness, and whatever are ever ever ever biased about anything. and trinitarians are never ever ever ever biased when they translate a bible, right? time for the cone of silence now?[/color]
which is better myopically unitarian spectacles or myopically trinitarian spectacles? depends on ones point of view. Ok time for the cone of silence simon.

No comment.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

So glad I took the time to open this thread.

Well, if you stir up a hornet's nest, what do you expect?

Until the Messiah returns and finally puts an end to all this theological debate by separating the wheat from the tares (weeds) there will always be those who defend and uphold the truth and those who deny and suppress it.

Some people have honest objections and limited understanding. With these people I can be very patient, tolerant and understanding as I seek to lead them toward the truth.

However, there are other people who, no matter what you say to them or how patiently you try and explain things to them they have absolutely no intention of ever accepting anything you say because they have already made up their minds about what is true and what is false irrespective of any objective evidence (especially the Judeo-Christian Scriptures) to the contrary. With such people it is impossible to reason because they just will not honestly consider any evidence that challenges or contradicts their own theological, metaphysical and/or philosophical presuppositions.

Such people place their faith and security not in the God of the Bible but in what they believe about the God of the Bible (which is why they will not, on pain of death, give up or change whatever it is that they believe about the God of the Bible). They then intransigently shut their minds and their hearts to anything that would challenge or contradict anything that they believe and hold as 'Absolute Truth'. By getting people to believe in this way, the Evil One has effectively innoculated people against the Truth of the Biblical gospel and deceived them into believing 'another' gospel that is, in fact, no 'gospel' at all (Gal.1:8-9). In this way the Evil One has deceived, and is continuing to deceive, millions of people in order to drag them down with him into everlasting perdition, such is the Evil One's all consuming contempt and loathing for the Creator Himself and the Creator's human creatures, made in the likeness of their Creator.

My hope is that honest people will also read these posts and discern between those defending and upholding the Truth and those denying and suppressing it and in doing so learn and be encouraged by the one whilst ignoring the other?

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Jesus' Two Natures​

Jesus is God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully divine and fully man. That is, Jesus has two distinct natures: divine and human. Jesus is the Word who was God and was with God and was made flesh, (John 1:1,14). This means that in the single person of Jesus is both a human and divine nature. The divine nature was not changed. It was not altered. He is not merely a man who "had God within Him" nor is he a man who "manifested the God principle." He is God, second person of the Trinity. "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word," (Heb. 1:3, NIV). Jesus' two natures are not "mixed together," nor are they combined into a new God-man nature. They are separate yet act as a unit in the one person of Jesus. This is called the Hypostatic Union.
The following chart should help you see the two natures of Jesus "in action":
GOD MAN He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33).He worshiped the Father (John 17).He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8)He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5).He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1)He was called Son of Man (John 9:35-37)He is prayed to (Acts 7:59).He prayed to the Father (John 17).He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15).He was tempted (Matt. 4:1).He knows all things (John 21:17).He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52).He gives eternal life (John 10:28).He died (Rom. 5:8).All the fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9).He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).

The Communicatio Idiomatum​

A doctrine that is related to the Hypostatic Union is the communicatio idiomatum (Latin for "communication of properties"). It is the teaching that the attributes of both the divine and human natures are ascribed to the one person of Jesus. This means that the man Jesus could lay claim to the glory He had with the Father before the world was made (John 17:5), claim that He descended from heaven, (John 3:13), and also claim omnipresence, (Matt. 28:20). All of these are divine qualities that are laid claim to by Jesus; therefore, the attributes of the divine properties were claimed by the person of Jesus.

Mistakes Cultists make​

One of the most common errors that non-Christian cults make is not understanding the two natures of Christ. For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses focus on Jesus' humanity and ignore His divinity. They repeatedly quote verses dealing with Jesus as a man and try and set them against scripture showing that Jesus is also divine. On the other hand, the Christian Scientists do the reverse. They focus on the scriptures showing Jesus' divinity to the extent of denying His true humanity.
For a proper understanding of Jesus and, therefore, all other doctrines that relate to Him, His two natures must be properly understood and defined. Jesus is one person with two natures. This is why He would grow in wisdom and stature (Luke 2:52) yet know all things (John 21:17). He is the Divine Word that became flesh (John 1:1,14).
The Bible is about Jesus (John 5:39). The prophets prophesied about Him (Acts 10:43). The Father bore witness of Him (John 5:37; 8:18). The Holy Spirit bore witness of Him (John 15:26). The works Jesus did bore witness of Him (John 5:36; 10:25). The multitudes bore witness of Him (John 12:17). And, Jesus bore witness of Himself (John 14:6; 18:6).
Other verses to consider when examining His deity are John 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:6-8; and 2 Pet. 1:1.
1 Tim. 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Right now, there is a man in heaven on the throne of God. He is our advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1). He is our Savior (Titus 2:13). He is our Lord (Rom. 10:9-10). He is Jesus.

Sorry bud, but I don't agree with most of this since it is 'pop-Christology' [i.e. popular Christology that might be easier to understand but isn't completely consistent with the Divine Revelation and therefore isn't accurate] for the masses (paying insufficient attention to theological detail) that is metaphysically impossible and therefore heretical.

Firstly, it is the Son/Word, existing as the Messiah, who is dual-natured, not the human, Jesus of Nazareth.

It is the Son/Word as the Messiah who simultaneously exists as both the Eternal and Immutable Divine Creator (YHWH) [PRIMARY NATURE] and the temporal and mutable human creature (Jesus of Nazareth) [SECONDARY NATURE].

Jesus of Nazareth is no more Divine than YHWH is human but the Son/Word, existing as the Messiah, is both Divine Creator (i.e. YHWH) and human creature (i.e. Jesus of Nazareth).

This (and not what you have posted) is authentic orthodox (i.e. Biblical) Christology.

If we are going to believe in the God of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures and His Incarnation as the Messiah then let's believe in what YHWH has actually revealed and not what we find easiest to get our heads around?!

Simonline.