Should you believe in the trinity II

[YeshuamySalvation]

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

still wanna say you don't need scriptures to be born again?

My question is why do people even waste there time posting here if they are going to provide zero scriptural evidance for what they assert is biblical truths. I'm sorry, but it takes a well constructed argument based on scriptural facts to convince an honest person of his or her error rather then the same ridicules repetitious none-argunments and personal attacks that some individuals resort too in these forums! Do they just ignore the very words of Yeshua when he says and why beholdest thou the mot that is in thy brothers eye but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye Matt 7:3?

This hypocritical and dishonest strategy of attacking the posters character rather then addressing the arguments in the post should be forbidden in these forums, and people who continue this hypocrisy should be censored, for they are nobody to judge the hearts of any individuals in these forums when they themselves are not in a state of perfection and do not know the hearts of any individual poster here! There is just no need to post any attacks and more if you think you have the truth, (which no one here really does) because the truth is only and exclusively in God's word and no one religious organization or individual possess it!

 

[2ducklow]

My question is why do people even waste there time posting here if they are going to provide zero scriptural evidance for what they assert is biblical truths. I'm sorry, but it takes a well constructed argument based on scriptural facts to convince an honest person of his or her error rather then the same ridicules repetitious none-argunments and personal attacks that some individuals resort too in these forums! Do they just ignore the very words of Yeshua when he says and why beholdest thou the mot that is in thy brothers eye but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye Matt 7:3?

This hypocritical and dishonest strategy of attacking the posters character rather then addressing the arguments in the post should be forbidden in these forums, and people who continue this hypocrisy should be censored, for they are nobody to judge the hearts of any individuals in these forums when they themselves are not in a state of perfection and do not know the hearts of any individual poster here! There is just no need to post any attacks and more if you think you have the truth, (which no one here really does) because the truth is only and exclusively in God's word and no one religious organization or individual possess it!

vicious insulting personal attacks make even the weakest argument seem strong. sometimes it's all a person has to defend his doctrine with. sad but true. my experience is that people who continually resort to insults for proof are not going to change cause one asks them to. They'll leave before they change. asking um to be nice ain't gonna work.
If you're lookin for a trinitarian/ oneness/ unitarian / whatever debate without argumentum ad hominum , you ain't gonna find it here in CF. It don't exist.

 

[Simonline]

Brother Simonline, don't judge people.... don't judge me.... don't judge the JWs.... As far as I know there is only one judge....definitely not you....

Thank you for owning a NWT.... I don't say It's the best translation.... because all translation are just translations... they fall short of the original... there is no perfect translation.... but it's good to compare... and not to limit yourself to traditional christian beliefs....

again may I remind you... don't judge....

The only people who are 'not to judge' are those who are dead! Making moral value judgments is an integral part of what it means to be a human creature made in the likeness of our Creator. If YHWH commands us to do what is right and to be holy and righteous even as He is Holy and Rightteous then how do you propose that we do that without making moral value judgments on a moment by moment basis?! How do you propose that we discern what is right/good from what is wrong/evil without making moral value judgments in order to cling to that which is good and true whilst repudiating that which is evil and false?! Your injunction that I should not judge because only God has the right to make moral value judgments is both stupid and completely unscriptural.

How are people supposed to get through life without being able to determine Truth from Falsehood, Good from Evil, who is a true believer from who is an apostate, heretic or outright unbeliever without making a moral value judgment based upon an objective criteria (i.e. the Word of God as Divine Revelation)?!

People who call for others not to make moral value judgments about them usually do so because that is their last resort against an unassailable moral argument based upon the concept of Truth as absolute. The first thing you need to learn about the Truth is that it is always implacably hostile toward all falsehood. If you make statements that are untrue (or based upon false or erroneous premises) then those who hold to the Truth will always challenge them, and rightly so.

Whilst I concur that no translation of the Scriptures is perfect, I utterly repudiate your inference that the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures is no better or worse than any other translation of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures since that is simply not true. The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures has been specifically and deliberately translated in such a way as to serve the sole purpose of endorsing and inculcating the blasphemous and heretical theology of The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and to make it as cumbersome and difficult to read as possible so that the membership of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society have little alternative but to study and interpret it according to the doctrinal teachings and publications of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures has apparently been revised and updated several times as orthodox Christianity has pointed out glaring theological contradictions within it (thus proving that the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures is, in fact, a counterfeit translation).

Abandoning the traditional orthodox theology of the Church is the surest way to shipwreck one's faith as one changes one's 'canon' from the Eternal Word of God in written form (the Judeo-Christian Scriptures) to the temporal (not to mention sinful) self and enters the spiritually suicidal world of moral relativism where everyone's subjective perception on reality is equally 'vallid' and equally 'true' (where you now reside, which is why you are so adamant that I should not judge you)?!

Presumably, when the Messiah passes judgment on you on the great Day of Judgment, you'll castigate Him too (since I doubt very much that you'll meekly accept His judgment asking 'Which way to the everlasting Lake of Fire?')

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Brother Simonline, I was surprised, you did not noticed that I did not used NWT in my quotation of Jn 1:1-3?????

Don't you think that I have enough to do defending the Truth without making extra work for myself by cross-referencing every Biblical citation posted on this site to see from which version it comes?

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

scriptures don't teach anything. scriptures are the written word, they don't have a brain and lips to teach. God teaches, and bible teachers teach. your bible teachers taught you the trinity not scriptures. My bible teachers taught me my doctrine, not scriptures. whether bible teachers use scripture to teach is another matter. whether God revealed trinity to you or God revealed oneness to me, is subjective and not something that can be proven to someone else. so to say That God revealed trinity to you, in no way proves it is true to someone else. My saying God revealed that God is one, not three, in no way proves to someone else that my doctrine is true. Everyone believes God revealed ( well that's a bit hyperbolic perhaps) their doctrine to them.

No comment

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Light bulb moment!!! I'm beginning to understand this, Simonline. Thanks.

~Veeg

At last...thank you.

That (rather than the blasphemous and heretical trash that is often believed by many so called 'Christians' today) is authentic orthodox Christology...what the Church has believed about Christ since at least the fifth century.

The problem with much of today's Western Christian Church is that she is no longer interested in theology and so makes up her own 'theology' to suit the prevailing culture(?!) That is a sure and certain sign of a Church that is spiritually dead.

Simonline.

 

[Kris10leigh]

The problem with much of today's Western Christian Church is that she is no longer interested in theology and so makes up her own 'theology' to suit the prevailing culture(?!) That is a sure and certain sign of a Church that is spiritually dead.

Simonline.

I don't know that I'd say today's church is no longer interested in theology. I think it's just that there are so many interpretations out there and so much time has passed that everything has gotten muddled. It's not that people are rejecting theology, but people are free thinking it. I think it's good for people to openly question and openly search, but obviously this can lead to false doctrine as well.

Who does one follow for absolute guidance? It's hard to know these days. One should follow Yeshua, of course, but who guides us as to how to do that in this century?

 

[Simonline]

(Joh 14:28 The Scriptures 1998+) "You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming to you.’ If you did love Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.


that is YHWH is almighty and Yeshua is God but not almighty...

How much more 'mighty' can you get than Absolute Reality?! The Scriptures ascribe things to the Messiah that can only possibly apply to YHWH as Almighty (i.e. Absolute Reality) thus proving that the Messiah is not just a regular (sinful) human creature and certainly not a 'lesser (created) god' (as the heretics would have us believe) but is actually YHWH Himself, incarnate as a human being (which is why YHWH declares in the Old Testament that He alone is Israel's God and Saviour (Isa.43:10-13; 44:6-8 et. al) whilst in the New Testament He declares that He as the Incarnate Messiah is the only Saviour (Acts.4:12) otherwise Acts.4:12 is a direct contradiction of Isa.43:10-13. Furthermore, in the gospel of John (Jn.8:58 (cf.Ex.3:14)), the Messiah declares Himself to be YHWH (and therefore Eternal), in the book of Revelation, the Messiah declares Himself to be the Alpha and the Omega/the First and the Last/ the Begining and the End on three (four, depending on which version you read) separate occasions (Rev. 1:8; (1:11); 21:6; 22:13 (cf. Isa.44:6; 48:12). In the book of Hebrews the Father addresses His Son (as utterly distinct and separate from the rest of the created elohim) as 'God' (Heb.1:8-12) and in His epistle to the Romans the Apostle Paul declares the Messiah to be 'God over all' (Rom.9:5)...need I go on?!

Like I said, you need to stop studying that 'Micky Mouse' translation and start studying an authentic (rather than counterfeit) translation.

It is only as Incarnate (i.e. as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth) that the Messiah declares His Father to be greater than He (Jn.14:28). As the Eternal and Immutable Creator [i.e. YHWH, Absolute Reality] (Col.1:13-17) the Messiah could not possibly be in any way inferior to that of His Father or His Holy Spirit (Jn.10:30-33)

Simonline.

 

[2ducklow]

I don't know that I'd say today's church is no longer interested in theology. I think it's just that there are so many interpretations out there and so much time has passed that everything has gotten muddled. It's not that people are rejecting theology, but people are free thinking it. I think it's good for people to openly question and openly search, but obviously this can lead to false doctrine as well.

Who does one follow for absolute guidance? It's hard to know these days. One should follow Yeshua, of course, but who guides us as to how to do that in this century?

I think we see the same thing but intepret it differently. My take on it is that people are scared to death to even consider that Jesus is not God, and there is no way to have a non confusing doctrine that says there is only one God, and then name 2 or 3 gods. So the result is most people don't study confusing doctrines , such as trinity, and to some extent oneness, because they are so confusing. espically trinity. I agree it is good to openly question someones doctrine or interpretation of scripture, that's what the berians did with Paul, the bible says they searched the scriptures to see if the things paul was saying was true or not. But I would disagree that it is good to question scripture, unless you mean question whether a reading of a particualr verse is genuine or not, in which case it is, for scripture is the word of God, and questioning scripture is the same as questioning God.

Everything in life is a risk, everytime someone decides to go out deeper in the spirit, and get more of God, the devil will be there to try and foul things up. I believe it has happened with every revival that God has brought to people, It eventually got killed by the devil working through saints, but the net result , I believe is that the church as a whole move further along the road to perfection.

 

[Kris10leigh]

But I would disagree that it is good to question scripture, unless you mean question whether a reading of a particualr verse is genuine or not, in which case it is, for scripture is the word of God, and questioning scripture is the same as questioning God.

Better put, I believe we should ASK questions, not question everything. I do question the validity of some of man's input in the Bible, though.

 

[2ducklow]

How much more 'mighty' can you get than Absolute Reality?!

This makes no sense. Mighter than absolute reality? what does that mean?

The Scriptures ascribe things to the Messiah that can only possibly apply to YHWH as Almighty (i.e. Absolute Reality) p

Ah ok you're saying absolute reality is YHWH almighty. I disagree, YHWH almighty is YHWH almighty.
and you have no scripture that says Jesus is YHWH.

thus proving that the Messiah is not just a regular (sinful) human creature and certainly not a 'lesser (created) god' (as the heretics would have us believe)

false representation. As a card carriing heretic, and proud of it, I do not believe Jesus is a sinful human creature nor do I believe he is a lesser god or any kind of god.

but is actually YHWH Himself, incarnate as a human being (which is why YHWH declares in the Old Testament that He alone is Israel's God and Saviour (Isa.43:10-13; 44:6-8 et. al)

those verses say nothing of the sort, you just interpret them that way. you have no scripture anywhere saying anything about incarnation, or Jesus being YHWH.

whilst in the New Testament He declares that He as the Incarnate Messiah is the only Saviour (Acts.4:12)

you need to read the scriptures you quote that verse says nothing about incarnate. No wonder you have to resort to no comment t o my rebutals.

Acts 4:12 And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved.

anybody see incarnate in that verse?????!!!!!

otherwise Acts.4:12 is a direct contradiction of Isa.43:10-13.

nope. Jesus is a different kind of savior than God, Jesus is our saviour because he died for us, and God is our savior because he accepted chists payment for our sins, they are one savior in purpose, not in being.

you prob. didn't consider that alternate interpretation.\

Furthermore, in the gospel of John (Jn.8:58 (cf.Ex.3:14)), the Messiah declares Himself to be YHWH (and therefore Eternal)

wrong. Jesus said "before abraham was I am (he)." I am or ego emi is not how the divine name is translated in scritpure. the divine name is translated kurios or lord. look it up.

lots of people said I am, like the blind man, someone saying I am doesn't mean they are claiming to be god, and even if I am is the divine name in john 8.58 Jesus isn't claiming to be YHWH but merely uttering his name. you read it erroniously like Jesus said "before abraham was, I am the I am." it odn't say that.

, in the book of Revelation, the Messiah declares Himself to be the Alpha and the Omega/the First and the Last/ the Begining and the End on three (four, depending on which version you read) separate occasions (Rev. 1:8; (1:11); 21:6; 22:13

two readings on rev. 1.8
(Darby) Revelation 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith [the] Lord God, he who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.

not Jesus .

rev. 1.11 says nothign about Jesus being YHWH not even remotely.

(Darby) Revelation 1:11 saying, What thou seest write in a book, and send to the seven assemblies: to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea

rev. 21.6 has variant readings in Greek manuscripts.

(Rotherham) Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me--Accomplished! I, am the A, and the Z, the Beginning and the End: I, unto him that is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of life, freely:
the verse doesn't say Jesus is the almighty. it says he is the a and the Z and rev. 1.11 says god is the A and the Z. the logical interpretation is not that Jesus is his own daddy and is therefore God, but that they are one, as Jesus said, and that god is in christ, as scripture says, thus the are A and z in a figurative sense in that they are one in purpose.
I think that's enough to show how you have misrerpesent scripturees totally here.

 

[2ducklow]

How much more 'mighty' can you get than Absolute Reality?!

This makes no sense. Mighter than absolute reality? what does that mean?

The Scriptures ascribe things to the Messiah that can only possibly apply to YHWH as Almighty (i.e. Absolute Reality) p

Ah ok you're saying absolute reality is YHWH almighty. I disagree, YHWH almighty is YHWH almighty.
and you have no scripture that says Jesus is YHWH. and you have no scripture saying God is absolute reality. in fact you are tho only one i have ever heard in my 37 years as a christian ever say that.. and we are doomed to hell if we don't b elieve you when you say YHWH is ab solute reality? oh man.

thus proving that the Messiah is not just a regular (sinful) human creature and certainly not a 'lesser (created) god' (as the heretics would have us believe)

false representation. As a card carriing heretic, and proud of it, I do not believe Jesus is a sinful human creature nor do I believe he is a lesser god or any kind of god.

but is actually YHWH Himself, incarnate as a human being (which is why YHWH declares in the Old Testament that He alone is Israel's God and Saviour (Isa.43:10-13; 44:6-8 et. al)

those verses say nothing of the sort, you just interpret them that way. you have no scripture anywhere saying anything about incarnation, or Jesus being YHWH.

whilst in the New Testament He declares that He as the Incarnate Messiah is the only Saviour (Acts.4:12)

you need to read the scriptures you quote that verse says nothing about incarnate. No wonder you have to resort to no comment t o my rebutals.

Acts 4:12 And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved.

anybody see incarnate in that verse?????!!!!!

otherwise Acts.4:12 is a direct contradiction of Isa.43:10-13.

nope. Jesus is a different kind of savior than God, Jesus is our saviour because he died for us, and God is our savior because he accepted chists payment for our sins, they are one savior in purpose, not in being.

you prob. didn't consider that alternate interpretation.\

Furthermore, in the gospel of John (Jn.8:58 (cf.Ex.3:14)), the Messiah declares Himself to be YHWH (and therefore Eternal)

wrong. Jesus said "before abraham was I am (he)." I am or ego emi is not how the divine name is translated in scritpure. the divine name is translated kurios or lord. look it up.

lots of people said I am, like the blind man, someone saying I am doesn't mean they are claiming to be god, and even if I am is the divine name in john 8.58 Jesus isn't claiming to be YHWH but merely uttering his name. you read it erroniously like Jesus said "before abraham was, I am the I am." it odn't say that.

, in the book of Revelation, the Messiah declares Himself to be the Alpha and the Omega/the First and the Last/ the Begining and the End on three (four, depending on which version you read) separate occasions (Rev. 1:8; (1:11); 21:6; 22:13

two readings on rev. 1.8
(Darby) Revelation 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith [the] Lord God, he who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.

not Jesus .

rev. 1.11 says nothign about Jesus being YHWH not even remotely.

(Darby) Revelation 1:11 saying, What thou seest write in a book, and send to the seven assemblies: to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea

rev. 21.6 has variant readings in Greek manuscripts.

(Rotherham) Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me--Accomplished! I, am the A, and the Z, the Beginning and the End: I, unto him that is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of life, freely:
the verse doesn't say Jesus is the almighty. it says he is the a and the Z and rev. 1.11 says god is the A and the Z. the logical interpretation is not that Jesus is his own daddy and is therefore God, but that they are one, as Jesus said, and that god is in christ, as scripture says, thus the are A and z in a figurative sense in that they are one in purpose.
I think that's enough to show what those scriptures actually say, and what they say isn't your interpretation. your intrprerttation isn't scirpture.

 

[Simonline]

I don't know that I'd say today's church is no longer interested in theology. I think it's just that there are so many interpretations out there and so much time has passed that everything has gotten muddled. It's not that people are rejecting theology, but people are free thinking it. I think it's good for people to openly question and openly search, but obviously this can lead to false doctrine as well.

There have always been 'many interpretations out there'. The difference is that now society no longer believes in Truth as absolute. At one time Western Society (on the basis of a Judeo-Christian world-view) thought in terms of Truth and falsehood. If something was true then, by definition, its opposite was false. Today, that is no longer the case. Western Society has now been duped into thinking in a totally different way. Instead of thinking in terms of Truth as absolute and that which contradicted it as being false, society has now been taught to think in terms of 'Truth' as being completely relative so that there is now no such thing as 'Good and Evil' or 'Right and Wrong', everything is just 'different' and everyone's perspective on Truth/Reality is equally valid and must not be challenged or declared to be 'false' or 'wrong'. It must simply be affirmed as being 'different'. This is why Judeo-Christianity is now criticized for declaring such things as all Religion, Occultism, homosexual practise, paedophilia, beastiality, etc. to be sinful. According to Western Society's current world view these practises are not 'sinful' they are simply 'alternative lifestyles' that must not, under any circumstances, be either challenged or criticized?!

Having the freedom to explore in order to arrive at one's own conclusions about which option is the Truth in order to embrace that option and reject the others as false is one thing but teaching people that every option is equally 'true' and 'valid' so that we can shop around for our world-view and spirituality like we shop around for our weekly groceries is nothing short of wicked. Moving the goalposts of what constitutes reality in order to dupe people into avoiding the very concept of Truth as Absolute is pernicious in the extreme. The fact that Western Society has undergone this philosophical paradigm shift is a sign of the fact that the world is hurtling, at break-neck speed, towards social and moral collapse (just as YHWH, through His Scriptures has predicted) as a prelude to the rise of the anti-Christ as the culmination of the work of the anti-Christian 'spirit of the age' (the Satanic counterfeit to the Holy Spirit).

Who does one follow for absolute guidance? It's hard to know these days. One should follow Yeshua, of course, but who guides us as to how to do that in this century?

Not 'who' but 'what'. Everyone who claims to be a Christian also claims to be 'following Christ' on the basis of their own personal relationship with Him. The question that these people need to be asked is 'How do they know that the one to whom they are listening and the one whom they are following is the authentic Christ and not just a deceiving Spirit (especially when the Scriptures declare that the Evil One is 'prowling around like a roaring lion looking for victims to devour' (1Pet.5:8) and (as are his 'apostles' also) masquerading as an angel of light in order to deceive the gullible (2Cor.11:13-15)? Since, according to His own Scriptures, the Messiah has now ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father, far above all principalities and powers (Eph.1:21), it is currently impossible to commune with the Messiah 'face to face' so how do these people know that they actually have a relationship with the authentic Messiah and they are not simply being deluded either by themselves or the Evil One (or one of his demonic cohorts) masquerading as an Angel of Light (or even the Messiah Himself)?!

This is why the Judeo-Christian Scriptures and the Church as the Body of Christ are crucial to authentic Judeo-Christian spirituality and a true living relationship with God. An authentic Christian will know that they are 'on track' by constantly checking their lives with the canon (or measuring rod/standard) of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures as the very Word of God (2Tim.3:16-17; Heb.4:12-13) and with the rest of the authentic Church (there are loads of counterfeits) as the Body of Christ.

Only when we compare ourselves with an objective and immutable standard that doesn't change will we get a true measure of our spirituality and be able to guage how much or how little we are being deceived (either by ourselves (Jer.17:9) or by someone else (2Cor.4:4)).

Simonline.

 

[Kris10leigh]

This makes no sense. Mighter than absolute reality? what does that mean?[/color]
Jesus said "before abraham was I am (he)." I am or ego emi is not how the divine name is translated in scritpure. the divine name is translated kurios or lord. look it up.

lots of people said I am, like the blind man, someone saying I am doesn't mean they are claiming to be god, and even if I am is the divine name in john 8.58 Jesus isn't claiming to be YHWH but merely uttering his name. you read it erroniously like Jesus said "before abraham was, I am the I am." it odn't say that. two readings on rev. 1.8

A lot of people use this as argument FOR the trinity, so I wouldn't mind delving into a bit. What exactly do you think Jesus mean by "I am"? In other words, how are you translating it? "I am" as in "that's me"?

I'm just wondering. Our minister does sermons on "I am" frequently and I've never quite grasped it.

 

[2ducklow]

A lot of people use this as argument FOR the trinity, so I wouldn't mind delving into a bit. What exactly do you think Jesus mean by "I am"? In other words, how are you translating it? "I am" as in "that's me"?

I'm just wondering. Our minister does sermons on "I am" frequently and I've never quite grasped it.

I believe that john 8.58 should correctly be translated "before Abraham was I am (he). He is understood, just as in english if someone should ask "whose the one that wrote this" a response might be "I am " but we know he means "I am (he) the one who wrote this.'' what Jesus meant, I believe , is that Jesus is the one that was prophesised of even before Abraham. It was who Eve prophesised of when she said "i have begotten a man" she thought it was the messiah. But righteous abel was just a type of the messiah, who was slain Just like Jesus was.

here is an ot quote in the NT where the divine name is translated Kurios in Greek or LORD in English, not "I AM".

Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

NO old testament quote of scripture containing the divine name in the new testament translates it "I am"

Look at john 8.24 just preceeding john 8.58 where Jesus says "I am" but it is translated "I am he".

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I am who?

John 8:21 He said therefore again unto them, I go away, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sin: whither I go, ye cannot come.

I am the messiah is who. the one who would go away unto death. the one whom the father sent.

John 8:18 I am he that beareth witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

now see they are asking him who he is.

John 8:25 They said therefore unto him, Who art thou? Jesus said unto them, Even that which I have also spoken unto you from the beginning.

he is the one that the father sent, which is what he said in the beginning all along.

in john 8.28 jesus again says "I am" but it is translated "I am he" . He is not in the Greek but it is understood.

John 8:28 Jesus therefore said, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things.
when he is lifted up they will know that he is the messiah. all this time Jesus is talking to them about himself and his father,

John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing: it is my Father that glorifieth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God;

then jesus says

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad.

Abraham did not see Jesus day with his eyes, he saw it by faith in the word of God which promised a messiah.

see now the jews thought he meant that abraham physsically saw Jesus, but that's not what he said.

John 8:57 The Jews therefore said unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

so Jesus replies that He is the one whose day Abraham saw by Faith, "I am he, the one whose day Abraham saw by faith" is what he meant.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am. (he) just like in verse 28 and 23. they just leave it out here cause all christians jsut about use it to justify Jesus being God. which it doesn't do anyway, as I pointed out eariler.

just a few verses later the jews say that Jesus is I am, but they don't mean that he is YHWH>


John 9:9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he." He is not in the greek, it just says "I am". they understood it to mean I am he in john 9.9 and they understood jesus saying "I am" in john 8.58 to mean "I am he".
Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. Jesus said I am in luke 9.20 but peter didn't take it to mean that Jesus was god or YHWH, he answer that Jesus was the christ of God, not God. clearly Peter did not consider Jesus saying "I am" to mean that Jesus was claiming to be God.

 

[2ducklow]

Not 'who' but 'what'. Everyone who claims to be a Christian also claims to be 'following Christ' on the basis of their own personal relationship with Him. The question that these people need to be asked is 'How do they know that the one to whom they are listening and the one whom they are following is the authentic Christ and not just a deceiving Spirit (especially when the Scriptures declare that the Evil One is 'prowling around like a roaring lion looking for victims to devour' (1Pet.5:8) and (as are his 'apostles' also) masquerading as an angel of light in order to deceive the gullible (2Cor.11:13-15)?

Simple, because God promises in his word that he will not give us a serpent when we ask for any good thing from him.

Matthew 7:7-11 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, who, if his son shall ask him for a loaf, will give him a stone; or if he shall ask for a fish, will give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


Ask God the Father to give you the holy spirit in Jesus name and he will not give you a serpent or a demon. he promises it. thats how we know we have not been given a false Jesus.

now, show me the scripture that says if you don'tbeleive the trinity you got the wrong Jesus. or put the shoe on the other foot, how do you know your trinity jesus is the right Jesus since no scripture says one word about any trinity? My Jesus is the Jesus who died at calvary for all mankind, That's the one I believe in, I don't know no trinity Jesus.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

nothin about no trinity here. you're on mighty shakey ground there simon.

 

[2ducklow]

There have always been 'many interpretations out there'. The difference is that now society no longer believes in Truth as absolute. At one time Western Society (on the basis of a Judeo-Christian world-view) thought in terms of Truth and falsehood. If something was true then, by definition, its opposite was false. Today, that is no longer the case.

yea right the good ole days when heretics were burned at the stake on slow roast.

Western Society has now been duped into thinking in a totally different way. Instead of thinking in terms of Truth as absolute and that which contradicted it as being false, society has now been taught to think in terms of 'Truth' as being completely relative so that there is now no such thing as 'Good and Evil' or 'Right and Wrong', everything is just 'different' and everyone's perspective on Truth/Reality is equally valid and must not be challenged or declared to be 'false' or 'wrong'.

except that us card carying heretics like moi meme do believe in absolute right and wrongs.

It must simply be affirmed as being 'different'. This is why Judeo-Christianity is now criticized for declaring such things as all Religion, Occultism, homosexual practise, paedophilia, beastiality, etc. to be sinful. According to Western Society's current world view these practises are not 'sinful' they are simply 'alternative lifestyles' that must not, under any circumstances, be either challenged or criticized?!

Us heretics believe they are wrong too.

Having the freedom to explore in order to arrive at one's own conclusions about which option is the Truth in order to embrace that option and reject the others as false is one thing but teaching people that every option is equally 'true' and 'valid' so that we can shop around for our world-view and spirituality like we shop around for our weekly groceries is nothing short of wicked. Moving the goalposts of what constitutes reality in order to dupe people into avoiding the very concept of Truth as Absolute is pernicious in the extreme. The fact that Western Society has undergone this philosophical paradigm shift is a sign of the fact that the world is hurtling, at break-neck speed, towards social and moral collapse (just as YHWH, through His Scriptures has predicted) as a prelude to the rise of the anti-Christ as the culmination of the work of the anti-Christian 'spirit of the age' (the Satanic counterfeit to the Holy Spirit).

western society especially in the days of the inquisition, was never an example of christianity. individuals becoming christ like are the only example of christianity. burning people at the stake for rejecting trinity such as Michael servetus et.al. is not an example of western civilization at it's apex, nor is it a good example of what christians should do. you accept the theology of the dark ages middle ages, and reformation times, do you also accept the methods used such as the inquisition, to support it?.

In 1184, the Roman Catholic Synod of Verona legislated that burning was to be the official punishment for heresy. This decree was later reaffirmed by the Fourth Council of the Lateran in 1215, the Synod of Toulouse in 1229, and numerous spiritual and secular leaders through the 17th century.
Among the best-known individuals to be executed by burning were Jacques de Molay (1314), Jan Hus (1415), St Joan of Arc (May 30, 1431), Savonarola (1498) Patrick Hamilton (1528), William Tyndale (1536), Michael Servetus (1553), Giordano Bruno (1600), and Avvakum (1682). Anglican martyrs Hugh Latimer and Nicholas Ridley (both in 1555), and Thomas Cranmer (1556) were also burned at the stake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_at_the_stake

those were the good ole days right simon? the days when right was right and wrong was wrong, and if you were wrong, burn um at the stake, they had so much truth back then they just had to burn anyone who didn't at the stake, right simon?

 

[Simonline]

I believe that john 8.58 should correctly be translated "before Abraham was I am (he). He is understood, just as in english if someone should ask "whose the one that wrote this" a response might be "I am " but we know he means "I am (he) the one who wrote this.'' what Jesus meant, I believe , is that Jesus is the one that was prophesised of even before Abraham. It was who Eve prophesised of when she said "i have begotten a man" she thought it was the messiah. But righteous abel was just a type of the messiah, who was slain Just like Jesus was.

here is an ot quote in the NT where the divine name is translated Kurios in Greek or LORD in English, not "I AM".

Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

NO old testament quote of scripture containing the divine name in the new testament translates it "I am"

Look at john 8.24 just preceeding john 8.58 where Jesus says "I am" but it is translated "I am he".

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I am who?

John 8:21 He said therefore again unto them, I go away, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sin: whither I go, ye cannot come.

I am the messiah is who. the one who would go away unto death. the one whom the father sent.

John 8:18 I am he that beareth witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

now see they are asking him who he is.

John 8:25 They said therefore unto him, Who art thou? Jesus said unto them, Even that which I have also spoken unto you from the beginning.

he is the one that the father sent, which is what he said in the beginning all along.

in john 8.28 jesus again says "I am" but it is translated "I am he" . He is not in the Greek but it is understood.

John 8:28 Jesus therefore said, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things.
when he is lifted up they will know that he is the messiah. all this time Jesus is talking to them about himself and his father,

John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing: it is my Father that glorifieth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God;

then jesus says

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad.

Abraham did not see Jesus day with his eyes, he saw it by faith in the word of God which promised a messiah.

see now the jews thought he meant that abraham physsically saw Jesus, but that's not what he said.

John 8:57 The Jews therefore said unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

so Jesus replies that He is the one whose day Abraham saw by Faith, "I am he, the one whose day Abraham saw by faith" is what he meant.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am. (he) just like in verse 28 and 23. they just leave it out here cause all christians jsut about use it to justify Jesus being God. which it doesn't do anyway, as I pointed out eariler.

just a few verses later the jews say that Jesus is I am, but they don't mean that he is YHWH>


John 9:9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he." He is not in the greek, it just says "I am". they understood it to mean I am he in john 9.9 and they understood jesus saying "I am" in john 8.58 to mean "I am he".
Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. Jesus said I am in luke 9.20 but peter didn't take it to mean that Jesus was god or YHWH, he answer that Jesus was the christ of God, not God. clearly Peter did not consider Jesus saying "I am" to mean that Jesus was claiming to be God.

Of course, it goes without saying that I completely disagree with this blatant distortion of the Truth.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Simple, because God promises in his word that he will not give us a serpent when we ask for any good thing from him.

Matthew 7:7-11 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, who, if his son shall ask him for a loaf, will give him a stone; or if he shall ask for a fish, will give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


Ask God the Father to give you the holy spirit in Jesus name and he will not give you a serpent or a demon. he promises it. thats how we know we have not been given a false Jesus.

now, show me the scripture that says if you don'tbeleive the trinity you got the wrong Jesus. or put the shoe on the other foot, how do you know your trinity jesus is the right Jesus since no scripture says one word about any trinity? My Jesus is the Jesus who died at calvary for all mankind, That's the one I believe in, I don't know no trinity Jesus.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

nothin about no trinity here. you're on mighty shakey ground there simon.

No comment.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

yea right the good ole days when heretics were burned at the stake on slow roast.
except that us card carying heretics like moi meme do believe in absolute right and wrongs. Us heretics believe they are wrong too.

western society especially in the days of the inquisition, was never an example of christianity. individuals becoming christ like are the only example of christianity. burning people at the stake for rejecting trinity such as Michael servetus et.al. is not an example of western civilization at it's apex, nor is it a good example of what christians should do. you accept the theology of the dark ages middle ages, and reformation times, do you also accept the methods used such as the inquisition, to support it?.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_at_the_stake

those were the good ole days right simon? the days when right was right and wrong was wrong, and if you were wrong, burn um at the stake, they had so much truth back then they just had to burn anyone who didn't at the stake, right simon?

No comment

Simonline.