Should you believe in the trinity II

[Kris10leigh]

He said he believes that Jesus is divine and human. He also believes that God the Father is God. that makes 2 gods.

I don't see how saying "God the Father is God" makes 2 gods. It's saying God the Father and God are the same, so let's not separate them. I think he's saying that when people are using the term "God the Father" they really just mean "God" and might as well leave "the Father" part off.

 

[Kris10leigh]

Weird things are happening...never mind.

 

[Kris10leigh]

Nope...well I'm reposting it then. Sorry if this ends up doubled:

He said he believes that Jesus is divine and human. He also believes that God the Father is God. that makes 2 gods.

I don't see how saying "God the Father is God" makes 2 gods. It's saying God the Father and God are the same, so let's not separate them. I think he's saying that when people are using the term "God the Father" they really just mean "God" and might as well leave "the Father" part off.

 

[2ducklow]

I don't see how saying "God the Father is God" makes 2 gods. It's saying God the Father and God are the same, so let's not separate them. I think he's saying that when people are using the term "God the Father" they really just mean "God" and might as well leave "the Father" part off.

You are way off from what he said.

You see I wholeheartedly believe that Yeshua is totally divine and totally human, But, I cannot equate Him with the Father because even Yeshua stated that the Father was greater than He. [Jn 14:28] If the Father is greater, how can they be the same?

He said that he believes that Yeshua *(Jesus) is fully divine, that means he believes JEsus is God. Then he goes on to say that the Father is Greater than Jesus. I just assumed that he believes that God the Father is God. WHich results in 2 gods. Jesus the divine or god, and God the Father. He never said anything like what you attribute to him.

 

[Kris10leigh]

But by saying he can't "equate Him [Yeshua] with the Father" he is rejecting the trinity. The fact the Yeshua states that the Father is greater is an argument FOR the trinity, not against it.

Edit: Misspoke above. Should read:
But by saying he can't "equate Him [Yeshua] with the Father" he is rejecting the trinity. The fact the Yeshua states that the Father is greater is an argument AGAINST the trinity, not for it.

 

[scriptures]

(Joh 14:28 The Scriptures 1998+) "You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming to you.’ If you did love Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.


that is YHWH is almighty and Yeshua is God but not almighty...

 

[2ducklow]

(Joh 14:28 The Scriptures 1998+) "You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming to you.’ If you did love Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.


that is YHWH is almighty and Yeshua is God but not almighty...

Then you still have 2 gods. One god that is a superior God and another God that is a lesser God. If I have a cadilac and a Sunbeam 2 cylinder automobile, I still have 2 cars, one superior and one inferior. (They made sunbeams like 40 years ago. It was the worst car I could think of, it had one door that opened in the front where the windshield is)

 

[2ducklow]

But by saying he can't "equate Him [Yeshua] with the Father" he is rejecting the trinity. The fact the Yeshua states that the Father is greater is an argument FOR the trinity, not against it.

I think you misspoke yourself in the last sentence. And I have already answered this question in my last post to you. But let me attempt to put it more succinctly.

Manning said he is a nontrinitarian who believes that Jesus has two natures. I argued that the jesus has 2 natures argument is a trinitarian argument, and attempted to disprove that trinitarian argument that Jesus has two natures.

YOu say I have no right to disprove trinity to him cause he said he isn't a trinitarian so when he said Jesus has 2 natures , well that isn't trinitarian cause he said he isn't a trinitarian. I say it is a trinitarian belief and I disproved the trinitarain belief that he holds that Jesus has 2 natures. I didn't disprove the entire trinitarian belief to him.

He also stated that he didn't understand the nature of god, which also is a trinitarain concept. I responded to that for what it is a trintiarian concept.

Or are you saying that I am off base in my belief that Jesus has 2 natures is a trinitarian belief, and that not understanding the nature of god is a trinitarain concept? and therefore can't respond to those arguments as being trinitarian cause he said he aint no trinitarian? If I say I'm a thiest but I don't believe God exists, then no one has any right to say I'm an athiest cause I said Im a thiest right?

 

[Kris10leigh]

I think you misspoke yourself in the last sentence. And I have already answered this question in my last post to you. But let me attempt to put it more succinctly.

I did misspeak, thanks. I'll go edit.

As to the rest of your post, basically I'm sticking my foot somewhere it doesn't belong. I'm just sticking up for what I think I saw someone saying.

This is entire thread is full of finger pointing, word twisting and picking apart words that perhaps were innocently typed. I'm not saying you were doing that. I think I just need to take a step back.

 

[2ducklow]

I did misspeak, thanks. I'll go edit.

As to the rest of your post, basically I'm sticking my foot somewhere it doesn't belong. I'm just sticking up for what I think I saw someone saying.

This is entire thread is full of finger pointing, word twisting and picking apart words that perhaps were innocently typed. I'm not saying you were doing that. I think I just need to take a step back.

Ok I win.

 

[scriptures]

Then you still have 2 gods. One god that is a superior God and another God that is a lesser God. If I have a cadilac and a Sunbeam 2 cylinder automobile, I still have 2 cars, one superior and one inferior. (They made sunbeams like 40 years ago. It was the worst car I could think of, it had one door that opened in the front where the windshield is)

One almighty God who is above all.....

 

[Kris10leigh]

Ok I win.

How did you know exactly what to say to draw me out?

Manning said he is a nontrinitarian who believes that Jesus has two natures. I argued that the jesus has 2 natures argument is a trinitarian argument, and attempted to disprove that trinitarian argument that Jesus has two natures.

He didn't exactly say he's a nontrinitarian. I got the impression that he is on the fence and has questions. I applaud that.

YOu say I have no right to disprove trinity to him cause he said he isn't a trinitarian so when he said Jesus has 2 natures , well that isn't trinitarian cause he said he isn't a trinitarian. I say it is a trinitarian belief and I disproved the trinitarain belief that he holds that Jesus has 2 natures. I didn't disprove the entire trinitarian belief to him.

I don't think I said "you have no right" to do anything. Doesn't sound like me. Disproving trinity is fine, but it can be done without accusing.

He also stated that he didn't understand the nature of god, which also is a trinitarain concept. I responded to that for what it is a trintiarian concept.

I don't think this is necessarily a trinitarian concept. I see it as a humble concept. God is greater than any of us can understand. I definitely think that trinitarians make God into something incomprehensible, but as a non-trin, I think I can't fully understand God who is perfect and eternal.

 

[2ducklow]

never mind

 

[2ducklow]

How did you know exactly what to say to draw me out?

He didn't exactly say he's a nontrinitarian. I got the impression that he is on the fence and has questions. I applaud that.


I don't think I said "you have no right" to do anything. Doesn't sound like me. Disproving trinity is fine, but it can be done without accusing.

I don't think this is necessarily a trinitarian concept. I see it as a humble concept. God is greater than any of us can understand. I definitely think that trinitarians make God into something incomprehensible, but as a non-trin, I think I can't fully understand God who is perfect and eternal.

your whole discourse with me is about trying to attack my character. so I'm gonna stop feeding the bear. all the rest is fluff.

 

[Kris10leigh]

This is entire thread is full of finger pointing, word twisting and picking apart words that perhaps were innocently typed. I'm not saying you were doing that. I think I just need to take a step back.

I read the post before you deleted it.

The only thing I can think of where you might get that I am "attacking your character" is where I said you were being accusatory. From my point of view, you accused him of beileving in two gods. To me that comes off as very harsh.

Perhaps you're upsett about the portion I quoted above? I bolded where it says I'm not saying you were doing that! There is another on here who has and I got a bit tired of it. These past three or four posts of mine have been simply to defend a poster who appeared to be asking questions and was accused of believing in two gods. But you know...I'm done defending others, at least here. Not worth it.

 

[2ducklow]

One almighty God who is above all.....

like I said, you still have 2 gods. one God that is greater than your other god.

 

[2ducklow]

I read the post before you deleted it.

The only thing I can think of where you might get that I am "attacking your character" is where I said you were being accusatory. From my point of view, you accused him of beileving in two gods. To me that comes off as very harsh.

Perhaps you're upsett about the portion I quoted above? I bolded where it says I'm not saying you were doing that! There is another on here who has and I got a bit tired of it. These past three or four posts of mine have been simply to defend a poster who appeared to be asking questions and was accused of believing in two gods. But you know...I'm done defending others, at least here. Not worth it.

I think you're preaching to the choir

This is entire thread is full of finger pointing, word twisting and picking apart words that perhaps were innocently typed. I'm not saying you were doing that.

And you aren't saying i wasn't doing it either. you certainly implied it by responding to MY POST with the accusation. it"s called beating around the bush, without actually saying it directly. gets you off the hook and at the same time enables you to accuse me of twisitng and picking apart words etc. yet it's ok for you to say I'm harsh, cause well it just is. I deal with the facts that he names 2 gods and im harsh is your response. you jsut want to attack me and ignore the debate. but I'm glad your done, perhaps you can find someone else to accuse and attack their character. good hunting.

 

[scriptures]

like I said, you still have 2 gods. one God that is greater than your other god.

Brother 2ducklow, how many lord do you have?

 

[2ducklow]

Brother 2ducklow, how many lord do you have?

Literally I have 2 Lords, but figuratively I have one Lord. God the Father and Jesus are one Lord, because Jesus is one with the Father in purpose, in the same way the church is suppose to be one. John 17,22 now you will probably notice that I did not sidestep your question as you have mine repeatedly. you have repeatedly refused to address the fact that you have listed 2 gods one superior and one inferior. you have refused to say how you can have one god when you listed 2 gods.



you fail to face the fact that you list 2 different Gods. You fail to face the fact that because one of your Gods is lesser than the other one that doesn't mean you have one god. How good is a doctrine when you can't face it's consequences? How good is a doctrine when you have to ignore any and all probeing questions and shift the topic to something else as you have here?

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

like I said, you still have 2 gods. one God that is greater than your other god.

You love this don't you? I'm going to say that i do agree with you to the fullest that Witnesses do have two god's in there arguments but always tend ignore it!