Should we invite G_d / Holy Spirit to be with us?

[Heber Book List]

We should not be calling for the presence Of God and the holy spirit " to Come" or "Be with us" in our worship , praise or thanksgiving. We are assured that they are with us.

We should acclaim, praise and give thanks for these things in our worship.



For all its doctrinal problems that is a beautiful song of worship.
I feel what it is really calling for is for us to recognise these thing in our lives. not asking for them to happen. It is this "Recognition" that is hard to express as it is internal, so we tend to externalise it in song.
Is this wrong? I am not sure that it is..... as the combined emotion it engenders is very powerful.
It is like a prayer to experience again that first emotion, when we realised that the Holy spirit was within us. And for those who have never experienced such a connection to do so.
It reinforces our own weak bond.
What is sung is not wrong it is just not accurate.....

So, heresy is not wrong, it is just inaccurate - is that what you are saying?

 

[Heber Book List]

For those of us of a more Christian Unitarian view, it creates no problem at all to See God and His Son as Separate individuals.

Christian Unitarian is an oxymoron

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

Christian Unitarian is an oxymoron

Not at all, it has been a common thread from the earliest days of Christianity. Those that attended Nicea tried to eliminate it, but never succeeded.
It is perhaps best represented today in the Non subscribing Presbyterian Church in Ireland
Welcome to The Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church of Ireland
It is non subscribing because it never signed the Westminster confession.

Unitarian thought, had a very strong influence in the enlightenment and was represented amongst the the new leaders after the War of Independence. Benjamin Franklin attended Unitarian Churches whilst in England prior to the war.

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

So, heresy is not wrong, it is just inaccurate - is that what you are saying?

As a fairly active heretic myself, Just so.....
Heresy relates to a particular Dogma. It is not universal.
What is considered Heretical by one church is not by another.
Even the Catholic and Orthodox churches consider each other Hetrodox. And the both consider Protestantism heretical.

 

[Heber Book List]

You surely didn't expect a Theologian to agree with you on this issue?

It does explain why the Christian Church is in such a massive decline in the West.

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

You surely didn't expect a Theologian to agree with you on this issue?

It does explain why the Christian Church is in such a massive decline in the West.

An open minded Theologian probably would agree with me,
as there are many threads to theology.

Christianity is not alone in its decline in the modern world.
All religions are having similar problems of decline.
However all religions are doing far better in the poorer and less educated regions of the world.
They are actually growing in regions of maximum stress.
This says rather more about human nature, than about the religions themselves.

 

[Heber Book List]

An open minded Theologian probably would agree with me,
as there are many threads to theology.

Christianity is not alone in its decline in the modern world.
All religions are having similar problems of decline.
However all religions are doing far better in the poorer and less educated regions of the world.
They are actually growing in regions of maximum stress.
This says rather more about human nature, than about the religions themselves.

This is not a Christian forum, as such - it is a Messianic Judaism forum; the two are not the same.

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

This is not a Christian forum, as such - it is a Messianic Judaism forum; the two are not the same.

That just shows how messed up people can be... who had a Jewish Grandmother, brought up as an Anglican, in a previously strongly Unitarian family. (non subscribing Presbyterian).
Who is now noticeably influenced by the Didache, the "training manual" used by the new Judeo-Christian communities to teach their new Gentile recruits, during the first century. (And at much the same time as Paul was on his mission). However those people had already taken a step away from their Jewish brethren in many ways, and had not yet associated Jesus with God, had no concept of the trinity. and who's faith was very much eschatological. and expected the second coming to be imminent. now that is a complex theological mix.....;

 

[Dave-W]

For those of us of a more Christian Unitarian view, it creates no problem at all to See God and His Son as Separate individuals.

that flies in the face of the "One God" we messianics proclaim in the Shema.

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

that flies in the face of the "One God" we messianics proclaim in the Shema.

Not at all..... all Unitarians believe in one God. It is what it means. They worship God.
Few if any, believe Jesus was God. Some do believe he was a Son of God.

 

[Heber Book List]

Unitarianism explained

Freedom, reason and tolerance

Unitarianism is an open-minded and welcoming approach to faith that encourages individual freedom, equality for all and rational thought. There is no list of things that Unitarians must believe: instead we think everyone has the right to reach their own conclusions. We see different opinions and lifestyles as valuable and enriching, and don’t discriminate on grounds of gender age, race, religion or sexual orientation. Although Unitarianism has its roots in Jewish and Christian traditions it is open to insights from all faiths, science, the arts, the natural world and everyday living.

Unitarians characteristically:

• base beliefs on rational enquiry rather than external authority;
• accept beliefs can change in the light of new understanding and insight;
• form principles from conscience, thinking and life experiences;
• hold reverence for the earth and the whole natural system of which we are part.

We welcome anyone with an open mind who shares our tolerant and inclusive views, who embraces the freedom of being in a faith community that doesn’t impose creeds or specific beliefs, and who bases their approach not on dogma but on reason. (sic)
Copyright: Unitarian Church UK website.

The text in red places them outside both Christianity and Judaism, and so also outside Messianic Judaism

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

Unitarianism explained

Freedom, reason and tolerance

Unitarianism is an open-minded and welcoming approach to faith that encourages individual freedom, equality for all and rational thought. There is no list of things that Unitarians must believe: instead we think everyone has the right to reach their own conclusions. We see different opinions and lifestyles as valuable and enriching, and don’t discriminate on grounds of gender age, race, religion or sexual orientation. Although Unitarianism has its roots in Jewish and Christian traditions it is open to insights from all faiths, science, the arts, the natural world and everyday living.

Unitarians characteristically:

• base beliefs on rational enquiry rather than external authority;
• accept beliefs can change in the light of new understanding and insight;
• form principles from conscience, thinking and life experiences;
• hold reverence for the earth and the whole natural system of which we are part.

We welcome anyone with an open mind who shares our tolerant and inclusive views, who embraces the freedom of being in a faith community that doesn’t impose creeds or specific beliefs, and who bases their approach not on dogma but on reason. (sic)
Copyright: Unitarian Church UK website.

The text in red places them outside both Christianity and Judaism, and so also outside Messianic Judaism

That quote is from the Unitarian Church UK website which is affiliated with the UUUnitarian Universalism which is non Christian.

The church my family is associated with says.

OUR FAITH

What Does “Non-Subscribing” mean?



It means that we are not bound by compulsory subscription to man-made creeds and doctrines of Faith.
We declare allegiance to the principle that:

• the teaching of Christ must take precedence over the doctrines of a later time, and
• Christian unity is to be sought, not in the uniformity of creed but in a common standard of duty and adherence to the commandments set out in the Holy Bible.

OUR FAITH

• • is governed by the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible
  • asserts and upholds the right of each and every individual to search these scriptural records for themselves and to use reason and personal conscience to discover God’s Divine Truth
  • removes Human Tests and Confessions of Faith that restrict private judgement and prevent free enquiry
  • upholds the beautiful simplicity of the great commandments as defined by Jesus Christ: “You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your mind” and “You must love your neighbour as yourself”
• Welcome to The Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church of Ireland

As you can see there is now a large Gulf between UU and Unitarian beliefs

 

[Laureate]

Maybe we should ask God to "remember" them instead of asking Him to be with them? He "remembered" Noah, He "remembered" Abraham, He "remembered" Rachel....
Though I am sure He understands what we mean even if we don't word it properly.

Give praise! Yet it is the Iniquity/Perversion of one's understanding and comprehension that establishes the Mote that Promotes Sin.

Sort of like a rifle with a forward and rear sight, our words and understanding need to be properly aligned in order to hit our mark.

 

[Heber Book List]

That quote is from the Unitarian Church UK website which is affiliated with the UUUnitarian Universalism which is non Christian.

The church my family is associated with says.

OUR FAITH

What Does “Non-Subscribing” mean?



It means that we are not bound by compulsory subscription to man-made creeds and doctrines of Faith.
We declare allegiance to the principle that:

• the teaching of Christ must take precedence over the doctrines of a later time, and
• Christian unity is to be sought, not in the uniformity of creed but in a common standard of duty and adherence to the commandments set out in the Holy Bible.

OUR FAITH

• • is governed by the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible
  • asserts and upholds the right of each and every individual to search these scriptural records for themselves and to use reason and personal conscience to discover God’s Divine Truth
  • removes Human Tests and Confessions of Faith that restrict private judgement and prevent free enquiry
  • upholds the beautiful simplicity of the great commandments as defined by Jesus Christ: “You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your mind” and “You must love your neighbour as yourself”
• Welcome to The Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church of Ireland

As you can see there is now a large Gulf between UU and Unitarian beliefs

So you are, in truth, neither Anglican nor Unitarian - you are Presbyterian. Why the facade of Anglicanism and Unitarianism?

Your link takes me to that denomination website which has a 'Links' page on which the Unitarian Church of the UK is listed - exactly the same information you have just rejected, above!

 

[Laureate]

We should not be calling for the presence Of God and the holy spirit " to Come" or "Be with us" in our worship , praise or thanksgiving. We are assured that they are with us.

We should acclaim, praise and give thanks for these things in our worship.



For all its doctrinal problems that is a beautiful song of worship.
I feel what it is really calling for is for us to recognise these thing in our lives. not asking for them to happen. It is this "Recognition" that is hard to express as it is internal, so we tend to externalise it in song.
Is this wrong? I am not sure that it is..... as the combined emotion it engenders is very powerful.
It is like a prayer to experience again that first emotion, when we realised that the Holy spirit was within us. And for those who have never experienced such a connection to do so.
It reinforces our own weak bond.
What is sung is not wrong it is just not accurate.....

Agree, many prayers are spoken solely for the sake of one's Recognition, to establish Awareness, and Remembrance.

Yet when one rehearses the Divine Word Faithfully they will find less need to ask for things already granted.

Yeshua was one in whom the Spirit increased and remained, and when virtue would proceed from him he would take time to replenish.

 

[visionary]

It is a call to re-unit with God, who is ever near but far from many because of their neglectful, sinful, rebellious stances. We just need reminding.

 

[Heber Book List]

It is a call to re-unit with God, who is ever near but far from many because of their neglectful, sinful, rebellious stances. We just need reminding.

The OP was about a whole congregation asking him to come and join them in their worship of him. That is contrary to scripture.

As I have already said, on this thread, it is a different matter when asking G_d into our lives when we first believe, or if we feel estranged from him, but not just every Sunday in a gathering of believers!

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

So you are, in truth, neither Anglican nor Unitarian - you are Presbyterian. Why the facade of Anglicanism and Unitarianism?

Your link takes me to that denomination website which has a 'Links' page on which the Unitarian Church of the UK is listed - exactly the same information you have just rejected, above!

So you are, in truth, neither Anglican nor Unitarian - you are Presbyterian. Why the facade of Anglicanism and Unitarianism?

Your link takes me to that denomination website which has a 'Links' page on which the Unitarian Church of the UK is listed - exactly the same information you have just rejected, above!

I attend an Anglican church as a communicant.
Presbyterian is how a church organises it self, rather than an actual faith.
So I am not a presbyterian as I do not attend such a church
I agree with the statements of the NSP that I posted.
There is nothing in them that runs counter to Anglicanism
Except that they support no Dogma.

On another forum I describe myself as an Anglican heretic...which is actually hard to be,
As it is a very broad and Liberal Church in itself.
I would also support, to an extent, the pre Trinitarian Christianity of the Didache.

The NSP has links to many liberal free churches, not just the uk Unitarians.and will happily have ministers from any christian church speak at their sevices.. most NSP members have described themselves as unitarians on census forms, and none are trinitarians.
Few would agree with the tenets that you posted, as their own are so different.
Most but not all uk Unitarian churches have been adsorbed into the UU church, as in the Usa. As you have seen it is now entirely non christian in nature and no longer based on the Bible. Unlike the NSP.

You will find surprisingly little information on non UU, christian Unitarinism on the web. Though its history going back to biblical days is well documented. Indeed you would have found the NSP site hard to find had I not posted it.

 

[tampasteve]

You will find surprisingly little information on non UU, christian Unitarinism on the web.

This is true....just try and look for good information on almost any non-Trinitatian beliefs and it is hard to find. Adoptionism, Arianism, Semi-Arianism...not a lot of good information.

 

[Heber Book List]

I attend an Anglican church as a communicant.
Presbyterian is how a church organises it self, rather than an actual faith.
So I am not a presbyterian as I do not attend such a church
I agree with the statements of the NSP that I posted.
There is nothing in them that runs counter to Anglicanism
Except that they support no Dogma.

On another forum I describe myself as an Anglican heretic...which is actually hard to be,
As it is a very broad and Liberal Church in itself.
I would also support, to an extent, the pre Trinitarian Christianity of the Didache.

The NSP has links to many liberal free churches, not just the uk Unitarians.and will happily have ministers from any christian church speak at their sevices.. most NSP members have described themselves as unitarians on census forms, and none are trinitarians.
Few would agree with the tenets that you posted, as their own are so different.
Most but not all uk Unitarian churches have been adsorbed into the UU church, as in the Usa. As you have seen it is now entirely non christian in nature and no longer based on the Bible. Unlike the NSP.

You will find surprisingly little information on non UU, christian Unitarinism on the web. Though its history going back to biblical days is well documented. Indeed you would have found the NSP site hard to find had I not posted it.

Presbyterianism is a Protestant, Free Church, able to determine its own Scriptural beliefs. Anglicanism is Protestant but NOT a Free Church and is not able to determine its own Scriptural beliefs. These are not just matters of how one organises a denomination.