Should we invite G_d / Holy Spirit to be with us?

Dave-W

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What we actually mean is that we want to encourage the person who is sick / in trouble / in need / unbeliever or apostate, to be able to know (ie to fully experience) that he is there, that they are not alone, that the King of kings and Lord of lords, El Shaddai, is tending to their situation. Anything less than that is surely the opposite of what he says about himself in scripture.
You are still failing to differentiate between His general presence and His MANIFEST presence.
 
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Dave-W

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Only because he shows there is no difference, in his word.
OK - that assumes the Holy Spirit was NOT with our Lord before He was baptized by John. That assumes that our Lord telling the apostles to receive the Holy Spirit in John 20.22 was not effective until a couple of weeks later on Shavuot/Pentecost.

Have you ever experienced the manifest presence?
 
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Heber Book List

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OK - that assumes the Holy Spirit was NOT with our Lord before He was baptized by John. That assumes that our Lord telling the apostles to receive the Holy Spirit in John 20:22 was not effective until a couple of weeks later on Shavuot/Pentecost.

Have you ever experienced the manifest presence?


You mis-understand scripture.

I do not see the point at #1 He was not baptised, in his human form he was anointed King of the Jews - the water was the ritual bath for a King in his case, and the Spirit appearing in the form of a dove, was G_d's confirmation of his Kingship, not an infilling with the Spirit prior to him doing anything. That is why John was keen to give way to him and ask him to immerse him (John). The water was a metaphor for Torah, which John was using to call people back to G_d's word - Jesus didn't need that because he is the Word, but he submitted to John immersing him into his Kingship. Kings had to write Torah, on appointment to their Office - Jesus didn't need to, but he spent his ministry calling people back to the Word, the pure Word.

G_d was with him all the time, from birth to death, as he is with us.

#2 The Spirit was given to the disciples by Jesus, which they then passed on, as it is written in Joel. I do not understand your calendar of events in relation to the giving of the Spirit and its 'active' dating.

#3. Your last point - yes, many times, but I do not understand your point in asking.

None of the above relates directly to prove that G_d is not always with us - unless you see the Trinity as 3 G_ds, not one.
 
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Dave-W

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None of the above relates directly to prove that G_d is not always with us - unless you see the Trinity as 3 G_ds, not one.
Of course G-d is always with us, and all who are born again have the indwelt Holy Spirit.

But that is not the same as G-d making His presence known in a tangible way.
 
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Heber Book List

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Of course G-d is always with us, and all who are born again have the indwelt Holy Spirit.

But that is not the same as G-d making His presence known in a tangible way.

Perhaps you could show clear Biblical evidence that G_d needs to be invited to our worship - which is what this thread is about? :)
 
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Dave-W

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Perhaps you could show clear Biblical evidence that G_d needs to be invited to our worship - which is what this thread is about? :)
Written to believers:
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+3:20&version=NIV'][/URL]
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+3:20&version=NIV']Revelation 3:20 NKJV[/URL]
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.​
 
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Heber Book List

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Written to believers:
Revelation 3:20 NKJV
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.​

That is out of context - that comment is addressed to the backsliders and apostates, not to active believers :)

It is also, as I have said a number of times, G_d calling us, not us calling G_d. :)
 
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Laureate

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I was in an evangelic, charismatic Church last Sunday, that is very Israel centred in much of what it does, and openly supportive of all things Messianic.

During a time of worship and prayer we sang a chorus that, in as many words, called upon G_d / Holy Spirit / Jesus to come among us, in much the same way as laziness in prayer causes people to pray for 'G_d to be with' whoever, whatever is on their minds.

I was quite disturbed about this and spoke to the key musician, asking why we were inviting G_d to come among us - is he not always with us in every situation, circumstance and event in our lives? The musician quoted several evangelical, charismatic conferences where this was being done as a lead into worship, and so his use of that chorus was legitimate. I pointed out a few Scriptures that beg to differ from this view, but I do not know whether he was convinced of the negative view it posited about us having to invite him (G_d) into our worship of him.

What do you people think?

You are correct! For those who have (Ruakʰ H'kodesʰ) are given more and increase in the Spirit, and those who do not have (recognize and acknowledge) Ruakʰ H'kodesʰ in themselves have the Spirit of Truth abated from them and it is replaced with a Lying Spirit;

Either One is Anointed by the Grace of Ruakʰ H'kodesʰ or they are relying on the Pride/Satan of Man, who gives birth to Lies/Demons which do not customarily return Void, but set out to accomplish what they are sent to perform.

The lyrics sound appropriate for a new convert being introduced to the Faith, however to ask the Spirit of Truth to enter You when it is already present is to be as One who thinks their lips and actions are their own, which would justify the request, but to have the request granted and one not know or acknowledge it is to be One who 'has not' and is thereby asking for the Spirit to be abated, and replaced with a lie.
 
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Laureate

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Loaded question.

Yes God is always with us via His Holy Spirit.
At the same time, His MANIFEST (that we can see/feel) presence is NOT with us except on certain occasions. (was that not the whole idea of the pilgrim feasts?)

I take such songs as calling for His MANIFEST presence.

Only One's Pride/Satan can veil His Presence/Glory, try circumcoding pride from your heart, and see what that does for you.
 
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Laureate

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Hmm, there are two sides of this.

Firstly just because G-d is Omnipresent does that mean he wouldn't like an invite?

I'm not sure the song you are referring to but it is common in the States for a song to be sung as an intro to worship called

Bo Ruach Elohim

I think it is because as he may already be present it is purposeful recognition that is being done.

Think of yourself anywhere, a party, a classroom, etc.

Everyone can see you but no one comes to talk to you or welcome you. Now make yourself invisible, even more-so are you not recognized.

The lyrics go something like this

Bo Ruach Elohim
u'male et nafshi
Hadrech otanu k'yeladim
rak b'cha anu chafetzim
Anachunu mazminim otcha lavo
Baruch haba, Baruch haba
Ruach Elohim
Baruch haba, Baruch haba
Welcome Spirit of G-d

Translation is

Come, Holy Spirit Come,
Come and fill us now
For you are welcome in this place
Show your mercy and your grace
Come and fill us Holy Spirit come.


What was the song you heard?

This is a song for those who do not continue in he Spirit such was Israel's turbulent relationship with Elohéyîm.

A song sung by faithful adherents would Acknowledge His Presence and express gratitude for it, not ask Him to do or be what He already is.
 
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Laureate

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The Toronto Blessing collapsed because people started using this idea of having to invite G_d in to their meetings in a major way. It didn't take long for other Christians, evangelicals included, to begin to claim that what was happening at those meetings was simply mass hysteria or, at the very least, to be crowd manipulation.

The debate soon started as to who, or what, came into the meetings - clearly for a large number of the meetings it was not G_d that answered their prayers! There is always a danger when opening ourselves to something none scriptural - ha satan loves to impersonate G_d. Yeshua told us that he is with us at all times, through the work of the Holy Spirit; he didn't say, to believers, I have to be invited, surely it is he who invites us to meet with him (as the Tanach witnesses on so many occasions)?

I see no problem in asking G_d into our lives, afresh, if we have been lax in our faith, or at conversions, but not every worship time, almost as a matter of course, with so many places using the same manipulative music (rising to a crescendo as a marker for the presence of G_d being confirmed) by a keyboard player. I do wonder what would happen if there was a power cut - I bet it would all suddenly stop, as if G_d had walked out of the meeting, in most cases? I see no problem in welcoming G_d into our meetings, or opening ourselves to his work in our lives. But we cannot beg him to be present - he always is - the problem with all this is that it puts people first and G_d second, we have to meet together and ask him to come to us - that is, surely, a little short of spiritual arrogance, is it not?

And when things do NOT happen, having invited him in to our meetings, who do we blame - G_d! One hears things such as, well, he does say 'no' or 'it is not for you at this time' or 'you lack faith' (which is really ridiculous as there was no faith that G_d was there without being invited in the first place) or whatever. How rarely do we examine ourselves in that situation and note our reversal of scripture in our 'worship', of whichever sort?

How richer it might all be if we started by thanking him for being among us, for the privilege of being able to join together in his presence, and wanting to open our hearts and lives for him to work through in this fallen and broken world etc etc?

This type of song is reminiscent of (and beneficial to) the weekend warrior, which I am not.
 
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Laureate

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So if you pray for someone going through a difficult time is it also wrong to ask God to be with them?

Inappropriate is the proper term rather than 'Wrong', Why would I pray for something that Elohéyîm has already revealed to be so, and act as if I were not establishing my own lack of Faith?
 
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chunkofcoal

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Inappropriate is the proper term rather than 'Wrong', Why would I pray for something that Elohéyîm has already revealed to be so, and act as if I were not establishing my own lack of Faith?
Maybe we should ask God to "remember" them instead of asking Him to be with them? He "remembered" Noah, He "remembered" Abraham, He "remembered" Rachel....
Though I am sure He understands what we mean even if we don't word it properly. :amen:
 
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Heber Book List

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Maybe we should ask God to "remember" them instead of asking Him to be with them? He "remembered" Noah, He "remembered" Abraham, He "remembered" Rachel....
Though I am sure He understands what we mean even if we don't word it properly. :amen:

I agree, except the last sentence. We need to use clear language that does not contradict scripture. There is enough heresy in 'the Church' already - we do not need to add to it, and just assume that heresy is OK because G_d knows what we should be saying!! :)
 
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Daniel Marsh

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OK - that assumes the Holy Spirit was NOT with our Lord before He was baptized by John. That assumes that our Lord telling the apostles to receive the Holy Spirit in John 20.22 was not effective until a couple of weeks later on Shavuot/Pentecost.

Have you ever experienced the manifest presence?

Acts 13:52 ESV /
And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 5:18-20 ESV /

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, (note no tongues)

“And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness. (Acts 4:29–31)

Even in non-charismatic or non-pentecostal circles D.L. Moody writes about this in his Book, Secret Power.

Luke 24:49 And behold, I am sending out what was promised by my Father upon you, but you stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

"
John 20:21-22 Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Even so send I you (kagw pempw uma). Jesus has often spoken of the Father's sending him using both apostellw and pempw. Here he employs both words in practically the same sense. Jesus still bears the Commission of the Father (perfect active indicative). For this balanced contention (as ... so) see Luke 6:57 ; Luke 10:15 . This is the first of the three commissions given by the Risen Christ (another on the mountain in Galilee ( Matthew 28:16-20 ; 1 Corinthians 15:6 ), another on the Mount of Olives ( Luke 24:44-51 ; Acts 1:3-11 ).
He breathed on them (enepushsen). First aorist active indicative of empusaw, late verb, here only in N.T. though eleven times in the LXX and in the papyri. It was a symbolic art with the same word used in the LXX when God breathed the breath of life upon Adam ( Genesis 2:7 ). It occurs also in Ezekiel 37:9 . See Christ's promise in John 16:23 . Jesus gives the disciples a foretaste of the great pentecost. Receive ye the Holy Ghost (labete pneuma agion). Second aorist (ingressive) active imperative of lambanw. Note absence of article here (pneuma agion) though to pneuma to agion in John 14:26 . No real distinction is to be observed, for Holy Spirit is treated as a proper name with or without the article.
"

In short, All born again Christians are Indwelt by the Holy Spirit and are sealed by him too. But, to have strength to do God's work, we need to be empowered or filled with the Holy Spirit often. Basically, being filled is simply surrendering to God and asking him to give you strength to do his works.

In John 20 text as you can see from Robertson's notes on the Greek Grammar. The Disciples did indeed receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them. It was after they were told to wait in the city that in Acts 2 that they were empowered by the Holy Spirit to do God's works.
If you read through the book of Acts, looking for phrases related to the Holy Spirit like, power, fill, full, filled, upon that you will realize that we are leaky vessels and that God refills us often as we live a life of surrender to God.

Secret Power or The Secret of Success in Christian Life and Christian Work by D. L. Moody

You can listen to it here: Secret Power or The Secret of Success in Christian Life and Christian Work by D. L. Moody - read by Peter-John Parisis : Dwight L. Moody : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

download and read here: Secret Power by Dwight L. Moody
DL Moody's Book - Secret Power

Moody Secret Power online - Google Search

Faithful preaching of the word while being filled or empowered by the Holy Spirit helps in the breakout of a revival.
 
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TerryWoodenpic

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Yeshua did mention two or three...

Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
(Mat 18:19-20)

I do not read that as saying that God and the Holy Spirit is not with us all the time. Rather that the real presence of Jesus Is amongst them when they call on him.
Jesus always spoke as God and him self being separate individuals.
It is the concept of the Trinity that creates the difficulty.
 
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Heber Book List

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Jesus always spoke as God and him self being separate individuals.

Because, as Philippians 2 says, he was as one of us when he was walking the earth, therefore the humanity of Yeshua was separate to his Deity, if that is not the case, then G_d died on the Cross, which is clearly not the case'

It does not affect the Trinitarian view.
 
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TerryWoodenpic

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We should not be calling for the presence Of God and the holy spirit " to Come" or "Be with us" in our worship , praise or thanksgiving. We are assured that they are with us.

We should acclaim, praise and give thanks for these things in our worship.


For all its doctrinal problems that is a beautiful song of worship.
I feel what it is really calling for is for us to recognise these thing in our lives. not asking for them to happen. It is this "Recognition" that is hard to express as it is internal, so we tend to externalise it in song.
Is this wrong? I am not sure that it is..... as the combined emotion it engenders is very powerful.
It is like a prayer to experience again that first emotion, when we realised that the Holy spirit was within us. And for those who have never experienced such a connection to do so.
It reinforces our own weak bond.
What is sung is not wrong it is just not accurate.....
 
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Because, as Philippians 2 says, he was as one of us when he was walking the earth, therefore the humanity of Yeshua was separate to his Deity, if that is not the case, then G_d died on the Cross, which is clearly not the case'

It does not affect the Trinitarian view.

For those of us of a more Christian Unitarian view, it creates no problem at all to See God and His Son as Separate individuals.

Paul, in Philippians 2, was as always having some trouble explaining the the deity and humanity of Jesus.
The equally obscure Trinity concept had not yet been established, and was still in contention. Even today few Christians understand it as written in the creed.
 
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