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Should we invite G_d / Holy Spirit to be with us?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Heber Book List, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. Dave-W

    Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

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    You are still failing to differentiate between His general presence and His MANIFEST presence.
     
  2. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    Only because he shows there is no difference, in his word.
     
  3. Dave-W

    Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

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    OK - that assumes the Holy Spirit was NOT with our Lord before He was baptized by John. That assumes that our Lord telling the apostles to receive the Holy Spirit in John 20.22 was not effective until a couple of weeks later on Shavuot/Pentecost.

    Have you ever experienced the manifest presence?
     
  4. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    You mis-understand scripture.

    I do not see the point at #1 He was not baptised, in his human form he was anointed King of the Jews - the water was the ritual bath for a King in his case, and the Spirit appearing in the form of a dove, was G_d's confirmation of his Kingship, not an infilling with the Spirit prior to him doing anything. That is why John was keen to give way to him and ask him to immerse him (John). The water was a metaphor for Torah, which John was using to call people back to G_d's word - Jesus didn't need that because he is the Word, but he submitted to John immersing him into his Kingship. Kings had to write Torah, on appointment to their Office - Jesus didn't need to, but he spent his ministry calling people back to the Word, the pure Word.

    G_d was with him all the time, from birth to death, as he is with us.

    #2 The Spirit was given to the disciples by Jesus, which they then passed on, as it is written in Joel. I do not understand your calendar of events in relation to the giving of the Spirit and its 'active' dating.

    #3. Your last point - yes, many times, but I do not understand your point in asking.

    None of the above relates directly to prove that G_d is not always with us - unless you see the Trinity as 3 G_ds, not one.
     
  5. Dave-W

    Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

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    Of course G-d is always with us, and all who are born again have the indwelt Holy Spirit.

    But that is not the same as G-d making His presence known in a tangible way.
     
  6. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    Perhaps you could show clear Biblical evidence that G_d needs to be invited to our worship - which is what this thread is about? :)
     
  7. Dave-W

    Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

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    Written to believers:

    Revelation 3:20 NKJV
    Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.​
     
  8. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    That is out of context - that comment is addressed to the backsliders and apostates, not to active believers :)

    It is also, as I have said a number of times, G_d calling us, not us calling G_d. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  9. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

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    You are correct! For those who have (Ruakʰ H'kodesʰ) are given more and increase in the Spirit, and those who do not have (recognize and acknowledge) Ruakʰ H'kodesʰ in themselves have the Spirit of Truth abated from them and it is replaced with a Lying Spirit;

    Either One is Anointed by the Grace of Ruakʰ H'kodesʰ or they are relying on the Pride/Satan of Man, who gives birth to Lies/Demons which do not customarily return Void, but set out to accomplish what they are sent to perform.

    The lyrics sound appropriate for a new convert being introduced to the Faith, however to ask the Spirit of Truth to enter You when it is already present is to be as One who thinks their lips and actions are their own, which would justify the request, but to have the request granted and one not know or acknowledge it is to be One who 'has not' and is thereby asking for the Spirit to be abated, and replaced with a lie.
     
  10. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

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    Only One's Pride/Satan can veil His Presence/Glory, try circumcoding pride from your heart, and see what that does for you.
     
  11. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

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    This is a song for those who do not continue in he Spirit such was Israel's turbulent relationship with Elohéyîm.

    A song sung by faithful adherents would Acknowledge His Presence and express gratitude for it, not ask Him to do or be what He already is.
     
  12. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

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    This type of song is reminiscent of (and beneficial to) the weekend warrior, which I am not.
     
  13. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

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    Inappropriate is the proper term rather than 'Wrong', Why would I pray for something that Elohéyîm has already revealed to be so, and act as if I were not establishing my own lack of Faith?
     
  14. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Senior Member

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    Maybe we should ask God to "remember" them instead of asking Him to be with them? He "remembered" Noah, He "remembered" Abraham, He "remembered" Rachel....
    Though I am sure He understands what we mean even if we don't word it properly. :amen:
     
  15. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    I agree, except the last sentence. We need to use clear language that does not contradict scripture. There is enough heresy in 'the Church' already - we do not need to add to it, and just assume that heresy is OK because G_d knows what we should be saying!! :)
     
  16. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Acts 13:52 ESV /
    And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

    Ephesians 5:18-20 ESV /

    And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, (note no tongues)

    “And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness. (Acts 4:29–31)

    Even in non-charismatic or non-pentecostal circles D.L. Moody writes about this in his Book, Secret Power.

    Luke 24:49 And behold, I am sending out what was promised by my Father upon you, but you stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

    "
    John 20:21-22 Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

    Even so send I you (kagw pempw uma). Jesus has often spoken of the Father's sending him using both apostellw and pempw. Here he employs both words in practically the same sense. Jesus still bears the Commission of the Father (perfect active indicative). For this balanced contention (as ... so) see Luke 6:57 ; Luke 10:15 . This is the first of the three commissions given by the Risen Christ (another on the mountain in Galilee ( Matthew 28:16-20 ; 1 Corinthians 15:6 ), another on the Mount of Olives ( Luke 24:44-51 ; Acts 1:3-11 ).
    He breathed on them (enepushsen). First aorist active indicative of empusaw, late verb, here only in N.T. though eleven times in the LXX and in the papyri. It was a symbolic art with the same word used in the LXX when God breathed the breath of life upon Adam ( Genesis 2:7 ). It occurs also in Ezekiel 37:9 . See Christ's promise in John 16:23 . Jesus gives the disciples a foretaste of the great pentecost. Receive ye the Holy Ghost (labete pneuma agion). Second aorist (ingressive) active imperative of lambanw. Note absence of article here (pneuma agion) though to pneuma to agion in John 14:26 . No real distinction is to be observed, for Holy Spirit is treated as a proper name with or without the article.
    "

    In short, All born again Christians are Indwelt by the Holy Spirit and are sealed by him too. But, to have strength to do God's work, we need to be empowered or filled with the Holy Spirit often. Basically, being filled is simply surrendering to God and asking him to give you strength to do his works.

    In John 20 text as you can see from Robertson's notes on the Greek Grammar. The Disciples did indeed receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them. It was after they were told to wait in the city that in Acts 2 that they were empowered by the Holy Spirit to do God's works.
    If you read through the book of Acts, looking for phrases related to the Holy Spirit like, power, fill, full, filled, upon that you will realize that we are leaky vessels and that God refills us often as we live a life of surrender to God.

    Secret Power or The Secret of Success in Christian Life and Christian Work by D. L. Moody

    You can listen to it here: Secret Power or The Secret of Success in Christian Life and Christian Work by D. L. Moody - read by Peter-John Parisis : Dwight L. Moody : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

    download and read here: Secret Power by Dwight L. Moody
    DL Moody's Book - Secret Power

    Moody Secret Power online - Google Search

    Faithful preaching of the word while being filled or empowered by the Holy Spirit helps in the breakout of a revival.
     
  17. TerryWoodenpic

    TerryWoodenpic Member

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    I do not read that as saying that God and the Holy Spirit is not with us all the time. Rather that the real presence of Jesus Is amongst them when they call on him.
    Jesus always spoke as God and him self being separate individuals.
    It is the concept of the Trinity that creates the difficulty.
     
  18. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    Because, as Philippians 2 says, he was as one of us when he was walking the earth, therefore the humanity of Yeshua was separate to his Deity, if that is not the case, then G_d died on the Cross, which is clearly not the case'

    It does not affect the Trinitarian view.
     
  19. TerryWoodenpic

    TerryWoodenpic Member

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    We should not be calling for the presence Of God and the holy spirit " to Come" or "Be with us" in our worship , praise or thanksgiving. We are assured that they are with us.

    We should acclaim, praise and give thanks for these things in our worship.

    For all its doctrinal problems that is a beautiful song of worship.
    I feel what it is really calling for is for us to recognise these thing in our lives. not asking for them to happen. It is this "Recognition" that is hard to express as it is internal, so we tend to externalise it in song.
    Is this wrong? I am not sure that it is..... as the combined emotion it engenders is very powerful.
    It is like a prayer to experience again that first emotion, when we realised that the Holy spirit was within us. And for those who have never experienced such a connection to do so.
    It reinforces our own weak bond.
    What is sung is not wrong it is just not accurate.....
     
  20. TerryWoodenpic

    TerryWoodenpic Member

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    For those of us of a more Christian Unitarian view, it creates no problem at all to See God and His Son as Separate individuals.

    Paul, in Philippians 2, was as always having some trouble explaining the the deity and humanity of Jesus.
    The equally obscure Trinity concept had not yet been established, and was still in contention. Even today few Christians understand it as written in the creed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
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