What are your opinions?
What are your opinions?
Yes, from what I read they should. Homosexual relationships are officially forbidden according to the Book of Discipline. Invariably though, some find a way to ignore or skirt the rules.
the UMC conference is liberal..they have strayed away from what the wesley Brothers started i was raised in the umc i went back and preached 2 weeks for them sad i wonder how many even understood the Bible . even though i no longer attend the the umc .my dislike is with the conference they set the standards and they will be held accountable
i am in a different denom..the umc i was raised in. is so cut and dried .if they drooped the united Methodist and moved away from the conference board .went back to being Methodist they would be better off many of the ministers are just vocational ..simply a hirling . unless the church has a large amount of members. they spread the pastor out to at least 3 churches... some only has preaching once a month but yes the conference is liberal .if i kicked the golden cow of religion over i am sorry .. many denoms have strayed away from the truth and went with man made ideas.instead of spirit ledI wonder how much you actually understand the church you were raised in because of how you frame your comment. "The UMC conference is liberal...." Has me raising some questions right away. One, there is no UMC conference. There are annual conferences within the UMC which are set up geographically mostly. There is the General Conference that has delegates elected from the annual conferences that attend the General Conference every four years. From there are appointed the people who fill roles at the General Conference level. But the polity and all is decided by majority vote by the General Conference vote. The UMC church as a whole is not Liberal or Conservative. It is a mix of both - in other words the full spectrum. Also you can't say the conference is liberal since the conference is delegates from all the churches within an annual conferences and you have a mix across the spectrum of delegates.
As for stating that he UMC has "strayed away from what the Wesley Brothers started." That would require a different debate thread I think. Mainly, since the Methodist movement in the USA developed into quite a different thing than what did in Britain. Mainly, because of the revolutionary war. Remember the Wesleys never left the Anglican church. After the revolutionary war the Anglican church pretty much was run out of the US. As a result John Wesley gave his consent for the Methodists to form a denomination.
Now how that denomination has strayed from what the Wesleys originally did I think is debatable. We still practice open communion, we are still organized around a conferencing system, the doctrinal statements are still the same as John Wesley set them forth, we still form groups for discipleship, we go to prisons to minister, we feed the hungry, etc. So how have we strayed from what the Wesleys started? I think more what you mean is the UMC current direction in its thinking, polity, and processes are not with your agreeing. Which if so that is okay. You should be in another denomination.
"Renouncement Of Evil"?There is some confusion about the United Methodist church "rules". First, the United Methodist church is not a confessional church. That is we do not require one to hold to a set of confessions or statements in order to be a member of the UMC. We do not require you to sign some card saying I will do this, or I will not do that. Actually the UMC membership vows are part of the Baptismal service. So all we require is the confession of Christ as lord and savior, renouncement of evil, a commitment to serve the church with our presence and gifts. That is it, one does not even have to hold to the doctrinal statements within the Book of Discipline. And yes the United Methodist do have doctrinal and theological believes/stances that cannot be changed.
With that said, in the Book of Discipline the restriction on Homosexuals being ordained and married are not in the doctrinal statements. They are in the section called Social Principles. These are not meant to be equated with dogmatic doctrinal positions but are policy statements of how the church in general is to conduct itself. For example: you will find a prohibition against using bottled water for environmental reasons in this section. This is not viewed as a sin if you drink bottled water. However, it is frowned upon if you are at a major church function/event such as Annual Conference and are serving bottle water to people.
The problem thus in the UMC with the LGBTQ issues is that we first have believes and opinions that fall all over the spectrum from Left/Progressive to the Right/Conservative. What is happening in the UMC right now is that some on the extremes have said; set up the language in the Book of Discipline and the function of the denomination to how I believe. Then kick those that don't believe our way or we are leaving.
As for citing the four passages in scripture that admonish homosexuality there is deep debate as to how much they involve the pagan sexual rituals, power of the strong over the weak, versus the type of committed relationships we are seeing these days amongst people of the LGBTQ community. I'm not trying to turn this forum into that debate. I am just trying to clarify the UMC issue and why it is leading to the upcoming split.
It was asked what is my position? God's grace is for everyone, so we should stop being prejudice and putting restrictions only upon one group. That also includes upholding some old testament laws and ignoring others because we think they don't apply since Christ's death on the cross.
"Renouncement Of Evil"?
What Do You Think Homosexuality Is, "Evil"!
I Think God Speaks Loud And Clear On The Issue Of Homosexuality.
2 Peter 2:6KJV
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.
Romans 1:26-32KJV
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I prefer to follow the Lord in this matter. This is what He thinks of this issue.What are your opinions?
you have just gave us your good works i am speaking of the conference they closes churches at will.the Church is being programmed by the conferenceI wonder how much you actually understand the church you were raised in because of how you frame your comment. "The UMC conference is liberal...." Has me raising some questions right away. One, there is no UMC conference. There are annual conferences within the UMC which are set up geographically mostly. There is the General Conference that has delegates elected from the annual conferences that attend the General Conference every four years. From there are appointed the people who fill roles at the General Conference level. But the polity and all is decided by majority vote by the General Conference vote. The UMC church as a whole is not Liberal or Conservative. It is a mix of both - in other words the full spectrum. Also you can't say the conference is liberal since the conference is delegates from all the churches within an annual conferences and you have a mix across the spectrum of delegates.
As for stating that he UMC has "strayed away from what the Wesley Brothers started." That would require a different debate thread I think. Mainly, since the Methodist movement in the USA developed into quite a different thing than what did in Britain. Mainly, because of the revolutionary war. Remember the Wesleys never left the Anglican church. After the revolutionary war the Anglican church pretty much was run out of the US. As a result John Wesley gave his consent for the Methodists to form a denomination.
Now how that denomination has strayed from what the Wesleys originally did I think is debatable. We still practice open communion, we are still organized around a conferencing system, the doctrinal statements are still the same as John Wesley set them forth, we still form groups for discipleship, we go to prisons to minister, we feed the hungry, etc. So how have we strayed from what the Wesleys started? I think more what you mean is the UMC current direction in its thinking, polity, and processes are not with your agreeing. Which if so that is okay. You should be in another denomination.
The Church isn't being programmed, they are closing the Churches nd dividing in attempts to remove the abomination of Homosexuality.you have just gave us your good works i am speaking of the conference they closes churches at will.the Church is being programmed by the conference
you have just gave us your good works i am speaking of the conference they closes churches at will.the Church is being programmed by the conference
"Renouncement Of Evil"?
What Do You Think Homosexuality Is, "Evil"!
I Think God Speaks Loud And Clear On The Issue Of Homosexuality.
2 Peter 2:6KJV
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.
Romans 1:26-32KJV
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
The sin identified in Sodom and Gomorrah was "Homosexuality" as the men of the city wanted the angels "Sexually" as Lot offered his two virgin daughters.Okay with the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. That is dealing with God's commands on dealing with strangers in the midst of a holy people, and a situation of gang rape or violent sexual abuse. Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed just because of homosexuality. Also some would argue that it is not dealing with a same sex relationship that seeks to have a committed partnership that also seeks God to be in that relationship. So some would argue it is not really valid to the discussion of homosexuality as it refers to gross corruption of wickedness and sins that humans can do.
As for Romans. Why is it in the New Testament lists Paul makes of sins and mentions homosexuality we ignore the other corruptions and sins he lists. For example in Romans 1:29 he states "debate" as one of the unrighteousness acts in his list. If that's the case than this whole forum is sin and an abomination.
I say it is a prejudice towards LGBTQ people that causes us to single that out and thus ignore the other warnings in scripture. If I a debater, who has lied, stolen, had premarital sex, probably been a heretic at times, drank alcohol, played poker, danced (and still does) - and can be saved by the grace of God through Jesus Christ. Not by any work I have done but only in faith by the grace of God. Then also can an LGBTQ person be a Christian not by any work they do or fail to do, but in faith by the grace of God.
If we who are freed from sin, yet are still sinners can be saved then why can't a homosexual? I'll tell you why. Because of prejudice, not because of God refuses to give grace to some.
i fully understand the old Methodist was a very spirit filled body the umc controlled /traditions..but to be fair church attendance is in decline all overGood works? LOL how do you get that? I'm not a Calvanist I'm Weslyan in my theology.
First as for your remark of 1 pastor to 3 churches remark in another post being how UMC is straying away from Wesley's intent. You are wrong. After all Wesley only ordained 2 guys to be clergy for the whole 13 colonies after the revolution. From there they created the clergy as circuit riders who only came to their churches once in a 3-4 month period. I the Wesleyan tradition only the ordained may administer communion - so the churches we led by laity not clergy. I would argue that the UMC by assigning a minister to 2-3 churches is returning to its roots not straying from it. Although that method is very stressful as many today will state, and even Wesley mentions the stress it would put on the pastors.
Now about the conference closing churches. Since Wesley the churches were owned by the collection of churches within a Conference. Even when Wesley was establishing the Preaching houses he demanded the deed for property was put in his hands and the collection. The UMC has maintained that tradition - so when a church comes to a point that it is dying and needs to be closed it has to go through conference. The Conferences do not just step in a close churches for no reason. Congregations that are struggling will be set up with a Clergy member who will pastor their church and another, or even three if need be. The two or three churches are then allowed to continue on seeking where God will take them next, if to grow again or die.
In the past if a church has strayed too far from orthodox teaching or from Arminianism theology, or more readily it just takes off on its own ignoring the collection that is called the Annual Conference then the Bishop will step in and close a church. I know of a case where the church was being controlled by one family, and would interefere with the churches mission, vision, and would subvert anything the pastor would do. Therefore, the church was closed down. A month later they reopened and reorganized the churches administrative structure.
They are not running around just closing churches for no reason. Currently it is the decline seen in all Christian churches throughout the USA, that is causing churches to be closed. The individual churches come to a point where they are not evangelizing anymore, they are down to a few families for a congregation, and they can't afford to keep the church buildings open. At this point a church may be closed, but since the churches are part of the collection of churches making up the conference it is an Annual conference decision to close them. Lately in UMC the view is if a church is dying and not wanting to renew and begin to grow again - Let it Die. As many pastors and myself included in UMC we are refusing to serve a dying church.
Again I don't think you understand how the UMC is organized and functions.